On the frontline of Europe’s forgotten war in Ukraine

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Profete said:
And Russia cannot allow it-self to trust oath-breaking NATO
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From “treaty”, to “promise”, now “oath”. 🤣

I think that if Russia gets out of other countries (even ones that it thinks that it somehow owns), avoids quasi-genocidal campaigns of ethnic cleansing, and just generally puts aside its tendencies toward Smerdyakovism, then it hasn’t a thing to fear from NATO.
 
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Most likely- nothing will be changed in Russia after the presidents elections, because Russia can not be changed. They will find a new Putin, someone from the security forces. Even their political opposition it’s a"plan B" in my opinion, I mean - you can’t expect western type democracy there, and among the world powers there are many who are not interested in Russia falling apart. In their opinion the chaos there will be an even greater threat than the war in the Donbass/Lugansk, but I think differently.
The stronger Russian Empire the more dangerous it is for the civilized world, and the history will prove it, as it proved it in the past.
Why people think that after collapse of Russian Empire the Northern Caucasus will be like Syria or Afghanistan? The Syberia will be even more backward region? In my opinion it’s vice versa, those new-born nation’s will be richer and will use their natural wealth for their new states people’s prosperity (Syberia) and will be proud of their long waited independence ( Caucasus )
 
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dvdjs said:
There is a specific UN treaty that has outlawed annexation of territory by conquest.
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There are also international agreements and standards which have been violated by the USA. For example, although US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice denied it, the USA has practiced extraordinary rendition or state sponsored kidnapping and transfer to black sites where individuals are tortured and denied access to consular officials or other representation. Extraordinary rendition violates several international agreements or standards including Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the Convention and Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees, the Convention against Torture, the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, and the Geneva Conventions.
 
AlNg said:
There are also international agreements and standards which have been violated by the USA
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Why the whataboutism?

The issue under discussion was Russian aggression, the wariness of its neighbors, the the response of NATO.
The imperfections of the US does not in any way vitiate the reasonable of Russian neighbors to seek to make alliances and to stage defenses to protect them from a real threat.
 
dvdjs said:
Why the whataboutism?
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Because the question arose of which states are criminal states and which states violate international standards and agreements.
dvdjs said:
The issue under discussion was Russian aggression,
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The people of Crimea voted to return to Russia. And polls taken in Crimea showed that the majority wanted to return to Russia. The majority did not want to live under an illegal coup d’etat which was encouraged and supported by the USA. Yanukovich had been elected freely and democratically and he was overthrown illegally with the encouragement of the USA.
 
dvdjs said:
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AlNg:
There are also international agreements and standards which have been violated by the USA
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Why the whataboutism?

The issue under discussion was Russian aggression, the wariness of its neighbors, the the response of NATO.
The imperfections of the US does not in any way vitiate the reasonable of Russian neighbors to seek to make alliances and to stage defenses to protect them from a real threat.
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Exactly. Russia has a centuries-long tradition of seizing neighboring territory, either overtly in the form of territorial annexation, or indirectly through structures like the Warsaw Pact. In either case it has been the Kremlin calling the shots, which is why it was Soviet tanks that rolled in to crush the Prague Spring.

The US is hardly perfect, and I could argue that wars like the Mexican-American and Spanish-American Wars were pretty blatantly imperialist in nature. But only the former lead to any significant territorial acquisitions, and that was before the Civil War for goodness sake. The latter lead to a few islands scattered around the globe, but the major “acquisitions”; the Philippines and Cuba are both sovereign independent states, so post-Civil War, if the US is an imperialistic power, it has to be one of the least successful in history (and I’d argue that, the Americans are darned good at making war, but there’s very little appetite for seizing other peoples’ territory).

Russia, on the other hand, has resurrected a new version of pan-Slavism that I’d call Pan-Russianism, that is wherever there is a Russian minority in a neighboring country, the Kremlin invokes some sort of ancient right to look after that minority, up to and including supporting armed revolts, and in the case Crimea, outright annexation. I think we can all remember another regime that used the presence of ethnic minorities in its neighbors as a justification for invasion.
 
AlNg said:
the question arose
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The deflection occurred.
AlNg said:
The people of Crimea voted to return to Russia. And polls taken in Crimea showed that the majority wanted to return to Russia. The majority did not want to live under an illegal coup d’etat which was encouraged and supported by the USA. Yanukovich had been elected freely and democratically and he was overthrown illegally with the encouragement of the USA.
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The vote was a fraud, and I ma surprised that there is a single soul who takes it seriously.
Your comments about the aftermath of Maidan are interesting. That is the party line in Moscow, but there is precious little truth in it.
 
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niceatheist said:
in the case Crimea, outright annexation.
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You fail to mention the support of the USA for the illegal coup d’etat in Ukraine, deposing the freely elected leader of the country. And you fail to mention the policy of the USA as espoused by Victoria Nuland who stated the US policy as: “F… the European Union.”
 
dvdjs said:
The vote was a fraud
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I don’t believe it was. There were enormous celebrations after the election and polls showed that a majority of people in Crimea supported the return of the region to Russia. I don’t think that you can find anyone who denies that the majority of people in Crimea supported the return to Russia? If so, I am interested to know who it might be and how they reached that conclusion.
dvdjs said:
Your comments about the aftermath of Maidan are interesting.
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There was in place a constitutional process for deposing a leader and it was not followed. Do you deny that the USA supported the coup d’etat throwing out Yanukovich? You can listen to the assistant secretary of state and what she has said if you don’t believe it: “BLANK… the EU”

Warning foul language by US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland:

 
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AlNg said:
Can you give us the name of someone who has evidence that the majority of the people in Crimea wanted to stay with Ukraine and did not want to return to Russia?
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No. Neither is there anything like an honest polling supporting the other side- in particular pre-occupation., let alone pre-colonization.
 
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dvdjs said:
Neither is there anything like an honest polling supporting the other side- in particular pre-occupation., let alome pre-colonization.
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You are terribly misinformed:
Post annexation:
“One year after the annexation of the Ukrainian peninsula in the Black Sea, poll after poll shows that the locals there – be they Ukrainians, ethnic Russians or Tatars are mostly all in agreement: life with Russia is better than life with Ukraine.”

www.forbes.com

One Year After Russia Annexed Crimea, Locals Prefer Moscow To Kiev

Poll after poll proves U.S. and Europe wrong on Crimea's annexation by Russia last March.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

And:
pre-annexation
“A new poll suggests the Crimean vote to join Russia will be overwhelming.
In a GFK poll of 600 residents taken Thursday and Friday, 70 percent said they will vote to become part of Russia, and just 11 percent said they will vote to restore Crimea’s status as part of Ukraine.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...c56b834c4bf_story.html?utm_term=.ee60271a3cbe
 
AlNg said:
You are terribly misinformed:
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Please be polite decent enough to read my posts and respond to what’s in them, rather that shifting and deflecting then making accusation about my being terribly misinformed. You might engage with my points regarding of pre-occupation, and pre-colonization attitudes.
 
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dvdjs said:
Please be polite decent enough to read my posts and respond to what’s in them, rather that shifting and deflecting then making accusation about my being terribly misinformed. You might engage with my points regarding of pre-occupation, and pre-colonization attitudes.
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OK. Here’s the question: Do you agree that there are polls taken just before the annexation and after the annexation of Crimea which indicate that the majority of people in Crimea favor reuniting with Russia? I think I have shown that there are. Therefore, your impolite statement that the vote was a fraud does not seem to be correct.
 
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AlNg said:
Do you agree that there are polls taken just before the annexation and after the annexation of Crimea
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You have show such polls. I think, however, that polls taken in recently occupied territory have little value. perhaps, .ike a poll in the US, you might be abe to show something of the methodology.

The bearing of these polls on the legitimacy of the vote in Crimea is not obvious. But the problems of the that election were documented at the time. And of course none of this has any bearing on the criminal action of the invasion.
 
The inhabitants of the Crimea who have a little brain, understood how big is the difference between the fate of Crimea (balneological resort) in the Euro integration of Ukraine and Cave-Integrating-Russia.
The choice of the residents of Crimea was not in their hands, because the Horde in military uniform punished the dissent.
Even in the past, the FSB by the sensitive eye monitored Pro-Ukrainian initiatives.
I confirm once again that all presidential campaigns ofYanukovych were dirty.
In a democratic country he would have been in prison long time ago, for his crimes during the presidency.
He could redeem himself by the signing of the agreement with the EU, but here he was the dog of Putin’s Russia, which has invested in his project.
The Tatar people of Crimea, are haunted, many are trying to bribe, the official position of the Crimean Tatars were/is Pro-Ukrainian but gradually they are being intimidated and monitored by FSB.
 
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Athanasiy said:
In a democratic country he would have been in prison long time ago, for his crimes
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Yes, and of course, now that Yanukovich is out, we all know how honest Ukraine is today. Ukraine was supposed to build a wall along the border with Russia. But guess what. In August 2017 it became public that huge amounts of the money intended to pay for the Wall were stolen. The National Anti-Corruption Bureau (NABU) announced the arrest of several individuals involved in the building of the fortified border.
And there are allegations of bribery being required to obtain public services. Allegations of election fraud. Even some Ukrainian politicians say that the system of justice in Ukraine is rotten to the core. Some Ukrainian government officials have fake university diplomas. Here’s an article on paying bribes for diplomas in Ukraine:

www.linkedin.com

In Ukraine’s universities, trading bribes for diplomas

KIEV, Ukraine — I hadn’t paid a bribe in my home country until it was time to defend my doctoral dissertation. I tucked $200 in page six of my manuscript before I handed it to my adviser.
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com

www.politico.eu

In Ukraine’s universities, trading bribes for diplomas

“I’ll never forget what he said when he found what he was looking for: ‘Now I see it. Your work is good.’ ”
www.politico.eu www.politico.eu
 
The struggle for independence, the Maidan its a process not a moment , the country needs to change by fighting the corruption.
You see, Maidan It’s an originally the Turkish word which means “square”, but Ukrainians made this word the symbol of fighting for democracy.
This new government should know that we can kick them out in the same way, if they will continue to betray the people’s democratical expectations.
 
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