On the knees, On the tongue

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I only said that the Protestent unbelief in the Real Presence was heretical. I am saying that the Pope’s example is closer to the Catholic practice of kneeling before God—something that Protestents who deny the Real Presence would never do.

The non sequitur to which you refer does follow. If our actions are indistinguishable from those who do not believe in the Real Presence we are missing an opportunity to witness our faith in the Real Presence.
I don’t think this explains the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches existence or practice. They do not kneel and have never kneeled. And yet, they witness to the Real Presence just fine.

You are trying to equate the Catholic posture of standing with a Protestant posture. It has neither the same history nor significance. Protestants reject kneeeling for a whole host of reasons that don’t have anything to do with the Real Presence. Some believe in the Real Presence and yet they stand.

I think instead you should be looking at the Catholic posture of standing from its historical origins in the Church, not based on what Protestants do.
Forum Elder, huh?
Yes. I am.
Let’s every body just stay focused. Kneeling before God is a good thing, and “Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.” (Paragraph 91) I’ll obey the part that says it’s not licit to deny Holy Communion to a “kneeler”.
So what is the point of your post?

You obiviously are not open to opinions that include standing according to the norms established by the Bishops.
 
I only said that the Protestent unbelief in the Real Presence was heretical. I am saying that the Pope’s example is closer to the Catholic practice of kneeling before God—something that Protestents who deny the Real Presence would never do.
Many of those who completely deny the Real Presence do not even stand to receive. Their memorial bread and wine/juice/water are often passed out on little platters at their seats. Those who do believe in the Real Presence in some form often do, in fact, kneel before receiving their communion.
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Glennonite:
The non sequitur to which you refer does follow. If our actions are indistinguishable from those who do not believe in the Real Presence we are missing an opportunity to witness our faith in the Real Presence.
What, then, does that say about those Protestants who do believe in the Real Presence of Christ in their communion, and who do kneel to receive?
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Glennonite:
Forum Elder, huh?
Yes, she is a forum elder. Of course, her number of posts and length of membership (what the status denotes) have nothing to do with the conversation.
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Glennonite:
Let’s every body just stay focused. Kneeling before God is a good thing, and “Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.” (Paragraph 91) I’ll obey the part that says it’s not licit to deny Holy Communion to a “kneeler”.

Glennonite
Kneeling before the Lord is, indeed, a very good thing! That is, it is if your reasoning for doing so is to show reverence to the Lord and not to show others that you are better/more reverent/more faithful/more whatever than those who choose (licitly) to stand and receive. As others have said, standing to receive the Lord is an ancient Catholic practice, and not some recent “protestantized” innovation. Both standing to receive and kneeling to receive are acceptable. If it is spiritually beneficial to you to receive kneeling, then please discuss your desire with your priest, so that he can at least be made aware before you approach.
On the issue of obedience to one’s bishop-- have you ever read the story of Saint Pio? Padre Pio, at one point in his ministry, had been unjustly stripped of all his faculties except for the faculty to celebrate Mass, which he was ordered to do in private only. He was forbidden to pray the Mass in public, could not hear confessions, and could in no other manner act as a priest. He knew it was unjust, others knew it was unjust, but until his bishop realized it was unjust, Padre Pio OBEYED. How humbling that must have been for him to know that he had done nothing wrong, but still followed the order of his bishop to cease nearly all priestly activity. Obedience to one’s lawful superior is a great virtue.
 
I don’t think this explains the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches existence or practice. They do not kneel and have never kneeled. And yet, they witness to the Real Presence just fine.

You are trying to equate the Catholic posture of standing with a Protestant posture. It has neither the same history nor significance. Protestants reject kneeeling for a whole host of reasons that don’t have anything to do with the Real Presence. Some believe in the Real Presence and yet they stand.

I think instead you should be looking at the Catholic posture of standing from its historical origins in the Church, not based on what Protestants do.

Yes. I am.

So what is the point of your post?

You obiviously are not open to opinions that include standing according to the norms established by the Bishops.
Obviously. Except for my original post where I said that I’ve received reverently in the hand most of my life. The gist of my posts centers on the erosion of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament found in parishes (see above).

Beyond the USCCB establishing the norms (after Vatican II), let’s discuss. Other than them declaring a norm, let’s explore the concept of a practice that most Catholics around the world follow. We used to receive at the Communion rail; why the change? Let’s look at the reasons why the Pope distributes Communion exclusively to those who are kneeling. Alternatively, let’s look at the reasons why the USCCB declared the norm in the US to be standing.

I’ve not said that I am not open to opinions; I just haven’t read anything other than that the USCCB declared something and we should just be obedient. My points have only stated why I think what the Pope is doing should be done everywhere. This action of reverence is uniquely Catholic; why shouldn’t, couldn’t, can’t we “fall on our knees” as though we were truely at Calvery.

I’m not saying (or care to say) anything about the Eastern Rite.

Let’s look at the historical Church practice of receiving while standing; I’m listening.

Glennonite
 
Many of those who completely deny the Real Presence do not even stand to receive. Their memorial bread and wine/juice/water are often passed out on little platters at their seats. Those who do believe in the Real Presence in some form often do, in fact, kneel before receiving their communion.

What, then, does that say about those Protestants who do believe in the Real Presence of Christ in their communion, and who do kneel to receive?

Yes, she is a forum elder. Of course, her number of posts and length of membership (what the status denotes) have nothing to do with the conversation.

Kneeling before the Lord is, indeed, a very good thing! That is, it is if your reasoning for doing so is to show reverence to the Lord and not to show others that you are better/more reverent/more faithful/more whatever than those who choose (licitly) to stand and receive. As others have said, standing to receive the Lord is an ancient Catholic practice, and not some recent “protestantized” innovation. Both standing to receive and kneeling to receive are acceptable. If it is spiritually beneficial to you to receive kneeling, then please discuss your desire with your priest, so that he can at least be made aware before you approach.
On the issue of obedience to one’s bishop-- have you ever read the story of Saint Pio? Padre Pio, at one point in his ministry, had been unjustly stripped of all his faculties except for the faculty to celebrate Mass, which he was ordered to do in private only. He was forbidden to pray the Mass in public, could not hear confessions, and could in no other manner act as a priest. He knew it was unjust, others knew it was unjust, but until his bishop realized it was unjust, Padre Pio OBEYED. How humbling that must have been for him to know that he had done nothing wrong, but still followed the order of his bishop to cease nearly all priestly activity. Obedience to one’s lawful superior is a great virtue.
Thanks Judy, you bring good words to ponder. Can I remind everyone that I’m using the CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENT (paragragh 91) as a defense for kneeling? If it says we can receive while kneeling, where’s the disobedience?

Glennonite
 
Thanks Judy, you bring good words to ponder. Can I remind everyone that I’m using the CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENT (paragragh 91) as a defense for kneeling? If it says we can receive while kneeling, where’s the disobedience?

Glennonite
My pleasure, Glennonite. Thank you for receiving my words in the spirit in which they were intended.
The disobedience can conceivably enter the picture because the US bishops have decreed that the normative posture for receiving communion here is standing. Our lawful superior is our own bishop, not the CDWDS. However, if after discussing this with your priest he agrees that it would be beneficial for you to receive while kneeling, and your diocesan bishop has allowed it, there would not be disobedience. Again, please discuss your desire and intentions with your priest.
 
My pleasure, Glennonite. Thank you for receiving my words in the spirit in which they were intended.
The disobedience can conceivably enter the picture because the US bishops have decreed that the normative posture for receiving communion here is standing. Our lawful superior is our own bishop, not the CDWDS. However, if after discussing this with your priest he agrees that it would be beneficial for you to receive while kneeling, and your diocesan bishop has allowed it, there would not be disobedience. Again, please discuss your desire and intentions with your priest.
Yes ma’am. Actually, before all of the rancor that’s come during this post, I had already decided to broach the subject with my priest before next Mass. As I said in my first post, I don’t want to cause a problem. 🙂

Glennonite
 
My question is, how is one being disobedient when we are allowed to receive all three ways?( hand, standing and kneeling)

Being the “norm” is not an exclusive term but inclusive. It means there are other options out the that are just as good but one way more used (not better or worse) than others.

I am a “renewed” Catholic (yes labels) but it fits me. And like that I am on fire with my Faith and desire to learn as much as possible. I love CAF but am very surprised as to responses to Gannonite’s request for advice. Is this a hot-button topic I don’t know about in the US? If Glennonite wants to recieve kneeling and it’s not illegal to do so what’s the problem?

My pastor these last few weeks, as part of preparing us for the new missal, wanted to clear up some actions during the mass ( such as holding hands during the Lords Prayer, etc) an one thing he read was from USCCB stating the three acceptable means for receiving our Lord. So we have no issue here thank God.

God bless you.
 
Since (thankfully) kneeling is not forbidden in the US, than do so. I have seen people kneel at parishes where that is not the custom and I have never seen a priest refuse communion to them. I do believe it happens (people have discussed it here) but it is perhaps quite rare.

You will probably draw attention if you are the only person to kneel, but that is not a bad thing. Seeing others receive in that way made me question things and explore reasons behind the practice. These days I kneel whenever I can. You never know whom you will inspire to follow your example.
 
Since (thankfully) kneeling is not forbidden in the US, than do so. I have seen people kneel at parishes where that is not the custom and I have never seen a priest refuse communion to them. I do believe it happens (people have discussed it here) but it is perhaps quite rare.

You will probably draw attention if you are the only person to kneel, but that is not a bad thing. Seeing others receive in that way made me question things and explore reasons behind the practice. These days I kneel whenever I can. You never know whom you will inspire to follow your example.
Thanks for the support. And thank you, govav8er for your words.

Glennonite
 
Since (thankfully) kneeling is not forbidden in the US, than do so. I have seen people kneel at parishes where that is not the custom and I have never seen a priest refuse communion to them. I do believe it happens (people have discussed it here) but it is perhaps quite rare.

You will probably draw attention if you are the only person to kneel, but that is not a bad thing. Seeing others receive in that way made me question things and explore reasons behind the practice. These days I kneel whenever I can. You never know whom you will inspire to follow your example.
I whole heartedly agree. 👍
 
Thanks for the support. And thank you, govav8er for your words.

Glennonite
No problem. I have, or had, a dog in this fight for about 6 months, since I was the only one kneeling at my parish. I recently moved from another city though where our pastor there brought back the old kneeler and most people reverted to kneeling (as was his intention obviously since he said all the things in your OP). Very small and engaged parish too mind you with a fiery pastor. You either liked the guy or didn’t. I gravitated to it due to my upbringing and my time in the military.
I since my new pastor clarified the approved methods the case, essentially is closed here. Talking to your priest might be a good idea too. Although I think you said you will.

Good luck and God Bless.
 
The universal norm for reception of Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic Church is kneeling and on the tongue.

In the US and in Canada, and some other countries, the Pope has permitted reception of Holy Communion standing and in the hand provided those who choose to kneel are not denied.

Regardless of what some congregation of bishops decided, you’re not being disobedient by receiving Holy Communion while kneeling and on the tongue. This is laid out as a perfectly fine option, and with the new translation and the revised GIRM, this is made even more clear that those who do are not being disobedient towards their bishop.

I’ve received communion kneeling and on the tongue from my bishop on a number occasions, and he has never brought it up in any discussion I’ve had with him after Mass.

I wouldn’t worry about it. Even my super liberal priest hasn’t refused me communion while kneeling.
 
Dear Glennonite,

We have an older gentleman (he’s in his 80’s) in our parish who kneels for communion. He talked with our pastor, and received permission to do so. He’s assisted by a younger man, a relative. Father has to step down from a step, but they’ve coordinated the movements, so it’s quick and efficient. It doesn’t disrupt the other people in line for communion.

As others have suggested, talk to your pastor.

The very best to you. 🙂
 
Dear Glennonite,

We have an older gentleman (he’s in his 80’s) in our parish who kneels for communion. He talked with our pastor, and received permission to do so. He’s assisted by a younger man, a relative. Father has to step down from a step, but they’ve coordinated the movements, so it’s quick and efficient. It doesn’t disrupt the other people in line for communion.

As others have suggested, talk to your pastor.

The very best to you. 🙂
Thanks Asia, I will.

Pax,

Glennonite
 
Let’s get the facts straight. The Holy See delegates to the USCCB the authority to establish norms. The USCCB has done so; the norm in the U.S. is standing. In the previous edition of the GIRM, a kneeling communicant was not to be denied communion, but was to be catechized on the reason for the norm. The USCCB, in the new GIRM (2011) has removed the requirement for catechesis. In other words, in the U.S., standing is the norm and kneeling is allowed. Kneeling is not discouraged, it is not lesser, it is not frowned upon, it is not a form of disobedience. “Norm” does not mean mandatory. “Norm” does not mean that an action in exception is in disobedience.

I would suggest that you discern whether or not to kneel based on where you think the Lord is leading you. Do His will for you. The Pope doesn’t require kneeling of Catholics worldwide. If you read his book, he even says that CITH is OK, and that he requires people receiving from him to receive kneeling and on the tongue because people were taking souvenirs. So don’t kneel to receive because you think that’s what the Pope wants. Kneel to receive because that’s how you want to show reverence to our Eucharistic Lord.

I receive kneeling and on the tongue. I was the first at my parish, and the only one for a few months. Now, there are five or six at daily Mass, and more sometimes at Sunday Mass. I’ve had many people come up and comment, all positive, all saying “I wish I had good enough knees to do that,” or “I’m going to start doing that.” Sometimes people need someone else to show them that it’s OK.

I started out asking my priest about it, seeking his advice. He thought it was wonderful that someone would want to show that much reverence, but asked me to go to the back of the line, so as to not trip anybody up. I did so, at the start. But now, everyone is so used to me, I just go when I go. If someone unknown to me is behind me in line, I whisper to them “I’m going to kneel, don’t trip.” I’ve never had an issue, and our communion line set up is very cramped and close.

I listened to an interview with Cardinal Arinze, who said something like, “If we really believed that was Jesus we were receiving, we’d crawl up the aisle on our belly.” I thought and prayed hard about that and started receiving kneeling.

Finally, you might draw attention. So what? The people who fret over you kneeling will find something else to fuss about if not that. They’ll worry about somebody’s tight shirt, or lack of a profound bow, or work clothing, or crying kids. Someone who would get all in a twist about you kneeling needs to focus more on the Lord and less on the congregation.
 
Dear Glennonite,

We have an older gentleman (he’s in his 80’s) in our parish who kneels for communion. He talked with our pastor, and received permission to do so. He’s assisted by a younger man, a relative. Father has to step down from a step, but they’ve coordinated the movements, so it’s quick and efficient. It doesn’t disrupt the other people in line for communion.

As others have suggested, talk to your pastor.

The very best to you. 🙂
Thanks Asia, I will.

Pax,

Glennonite
 
Respectfully, my words were, “Pope’s example”. You turned that into, “papal mandate” and continue to to use “mandate” in it’s various forms. Umm, get off of it. I haven’t “insisted” anything, lest of all that anyone is “disobedient”.

Where’s your hostility coming from? I’m bringing up a question on how to show my reverence for God in a way that is closer to our Catholic Tradition and the Pope’s example.

As for as humility, I’m advocating kneeling.

Check this out: realcatholictv.com/premium/index.php?vidID=vort-2011-04-19&ssnID=148

Glennonite
I have to say that puzzleannie was not the only one who had a problem with your first post particularly your last sentence. Let me put it this way- if one were to attend Mass at St. Peter’s but were not lucky enough to be selected to receive Communion from our Holy Father, would they be among those " “just go along” with the congregation in a practice that is not in line with the Holy Father’s wishes" ? I think not. Perhaps you did not mean for it to come across the way that it did. But why do you respond in such a rude manner when someone questions what you have written?
 
Let’s get the facts straight. The Holy See delegates to the USCCB the authority to establish norms. The USCCB has done so; the norm in the U.S. is standing. In the previous edition of the GIRM, a kneeling communicant was not to be denied communion, but was to be catechized on the reason for the norm. The USCCB, in the new GIRM (2011) has removed the requirement for catechesis. In other words, in the U.S., standing is the norm and kneeling is allowed. Kneeling is not discouraged, it is not lesser, it is not frowned upon, it is not a form of disobedience. “Norm” does not mean mandatory. “Norm” does not mean that an action in exception is in disobedience.

I would suggest that you discern whether or not to kneel based on where you think the Lord is leading you. Do His will for you. The Pope doesn’t require kneeling of Catholics worldwide. If you read his book, he even says that CITH is OK, and that he requires people receiving from him to receive kneeling and on the tongue because people were taking souvenirs. So don’t kneel to receive because you think that’s what the Pope wants. Kneel to receive because that’s how you want to show reverence to our Eucharistic Lord.

I receive kneeling and on the tongue. I was the first at my parish, and the only one for a few months. Now, there are five or six at daily Mass, and more sometimes at Sunday Mass. I’ve had many people come up and comment, all positive, all saying “I wish I had good enough knees to do that,” or “I’m going to start doing that.” Sometimes people need someone else to show them that it’s OK.

I started out asking my priest about it, seeking his advice. He thought it was wonderful that someone would want to show that much reverence, but asked me to go to the back of the line, so as to not trip anybody up. I did so, at the start. But now, everyone is so used to me, I just go when I go. If someone unknown to me is behind me in line, I whisper to them “I’m going to kneel, don’t trip.” I’ve never had an issue, and our communion line set up is very cramped and close.

I listened to an interview with Cardinal Arinze, who said something like, “If we really believed that was Jesus we were receiving, we’d crawl up the aisle on our belly.” I thought and prayed hard about that and started receiving kneeling.

Finally, you might draw attention. So what? The people who fret over you kneeling will find something else to fuss about if not that. They’ll worry about somebody’s tight shirt, or lack of a profound bow, or work clothing, or crying kids. Someone who would get all in a twist about you kneeling needs to focus more on the Lord and less on the congregation.
Good, charitable post, and I don’t kneel to receive. This issue is often so partisan, kneelers vs. non-kneelers. Neither is disobedient.
 
Let’s get the facts straight. The Holy See delegates to the USCCB the authority to establish norms.
.
Very good post. 👍

I would offer one point of clarification. The Holy See did not actually delegate the authority to create norms. The local bishops conferences may request local adaptations to the Universal Norms, but the authority that actually establishes the norm remains that of Rome;in the form of the recognito.

This is a critical point under Canon law, as Canon 16 notes that it is the legislative authority that may issue binding interpretations. In the case of the GIRM, including local adapations, Rome’s intent and interpretation is the binding authority.

This had a strong bearing on the previous GIRM, where the intent of Rome’s approval was not made manifest in the GIRM itself, and had to be subsequently clarified with several responsoria.

Thankfully, a greater clarificiation of the Norms for the US are now in effect.
The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling
Thus it is now clear than any particular, local norm for standing does not apply to anyone who, of their own free choice, kneels for Holy Communion.
 
Let’s look at the reasons why the Pope distributes Communion exclusively to those who are kneeling.
Its actually very simple; Pope Benedict himself has said that he personally has no problem with communion in the hand but has chose to distribute kneeling and on the tongue because 1) as pope, his wishes to teach reverence to the Blessed Sacrament and 2) to lessen the chance that people will keep the Host as a souvenir from a Mass with the pope.

Your reliance upon the* reasons* why the pope does what he does is to misstate his true intentions.
 
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