On the topic of gay marriage

[sw85]

Jharek, if 2 heterosexual Catholics are married by a Protestant pastor, are they considered by the Church to be in a valid marriage?

Can’t say with certainty but I think the answer is that the marriage is invalid unless a dispensation has been issued.

 

[CMatt25]

Oh, really?

Episcopal Split as Conservatives Form New Group

Episcopal split hits new level

So if you don’t notice the problem in your church or diocese, it’s not a problem? Talk about blinders! BTW, this is not “criticizing/ridiculing/trashing” Episcopalians. This is FACT about what is going on in the Anglican Church at this time. Why do you think Anglicans are coming back to Catholicism in the first place?

Yes really. What I took offense mainly with was your suggestion that Episcopalians don’t believe in Scripture. They might not believe in your faith’s interpretation of the Truth. But there’s a difference in that and saying they don’t believe in the Word of God.

In any case the fact is some Episcopalians are leaving for the Catholic faith. Some as in the diocese where I reside aren’t. And the fact is also that some Catholics for whatever number of reasons “leave” or have felt driven out of the Catholic Church and have gone on to an Episcopal church or another denomination or have become unchurched.

Instead of worrying so much about the Episcopalians maybe instead you ought to look at weekly Mass attendance, etc by Catholics. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Can’t say with certainty but I think the answer is that the marriage is invalid unless a dispensation has been issued.

Thanks sw85. I see you’re in RCIA. If you are entering the Catholic Church during this Holy Wk, God’s blessings and His peace be with you always.

 

[CMatt25]

Interesting but I’m still not changing my beliefs. And the Church does not need to save my soul because I’m already happy and secure in my present beliefs.

The Church has no business sticking its nose in anyone’s bedrooms.

God bless you Mitex along your journey with Him. I admire your strength and charity here. Peace.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yes really. What I took offense mainly with was your suggestion that Episcopalians don’t believe in Scripture. They might not believe in your faith’s interpretation of the Truth. But there’s a difference in that and saying they don’t believe in the Word of God.

In any case the fact is some Episcopalians are leaving for the Catholic faith. Some as in the diocese where I reside aren’t. And the fact is also that some Catholics for whatever number of reasons “leave” or have felt driven out of the Catholic Church and have gone on to an Episcopal church or another denomination or have become unchurched.

Instead of worrying so much about the Episcopalians maybe instead you ought to look at weekly Mass attendance, etc by Catholics. Peace.

The poster mitex brought in his church in the first few responses to the OP.

 

[mitex]

I like how one of the posters said the Church was going to regulate my sex life ! That was rich and I’m not even Catholic!

 

[ssa_fellow]

As for the actual topic of the thread, I layed out my case in post #7. People with SSA who live according to the Church’s teachings have a superior lifestyle to people that engage in sodomy; including those who are “gay married” and engage in sodomy.

My lifestyle is superior because Jesus Christ has freed me, while people who live the “gay lifestyle” are hopelessly enslaved to sin. My relationship with God is infinitely better than the “relationship” between to homosexuals who sin together.

 

[mitex]

Hey you’re good at putting words in my mouth!!!

Notice I wasn’t talking to you. I was responding to someone who asked me a question. The world doesn’t revolve around you. And it certainly doesn’t revolve around the Episcopal Church LOL.

I mean, how does me answering a question about pluralism have anything to do with Episcopalians? It doesn’t.

And on top of all that I accused you of heresy??? Wow… how’s it feel to stuff words into someone’s mouth?

As for the actual topic of the thread, I layed out my case in post #7. People with SSA who live according to the Church’s teachings have a superior lifestyle to people that engage in sodomy; including those who are “gay married” and engage in sodomy.

My lifestyle is superior because Jesus Christ has freed me, while people who live the “gay lifestyle” are hopelessly enslaved to sin. My relationship with God is infinitely better than the “relationship” between to homosexuals who sin together.

More like brainwashed.

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

Participants are strongly reminded that charity is essential to our discussions here.

If you wish to review the subject, please see Charity for specifics, or CAF rules for an overview, both of which are located in the Rules of the Road sub-forum.

 

[ssa_fellow]

In any case the fact is some Episcopalians are leaving for the Catholic faith. Some as in the diocese where I reside aren’t. And the fact is also that some Catholics for whatever number of reasons “leave” or have felt driven out of the Catholic Church and have gone on to an Episcopal church or another denomination or have become unchurched.

Instead of worrying so much about the Episcopalians maybe instead you ought to look at weekly Mass attendance, etc by Catholics. Peace.

SOME Catholics might be leaving the Church to become Episcopalian, but on par there are more people leaving the Episcopalian Church than are leaving the Catholic Church.

The Episcopalian Church had 3.4 million members in the U.S. Today they have 1.9 million. The Catholic Church had 63 million members in the U.S. Today they have 78 million.

Shouldn’t Episcopalians be MORE concerned than Catholics about weekly attendance? Do you know of any evidence that shows Episcopalians attend Church at higher rates than Catholics?

 

[CMatt25]

I wasn’t dragging in anything. I was merely asking a question to make certain I still knew what I thought I knew in response to your words, “It’s not a valid sacramental marriage but it is a valid marriage.” Thanks for clarifying that I do. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

SOME Catholics might be leaving the Church to become Episcopalian, but on par there are more people leaving the Episcopalian Church than are leaving the Catholic Church.

The Episcopalian Church had 3.4 million members in the U.S. Today they have 1.9 million. The Catholic Church had 63 million members in the U.S. Today they have 78 million.

Shouldn’t Episcopalians be MORE concerned than Catholics about weekly attendance? Do you know of any evidence that shows Episcopalians attend Church at higher rates than Catholics?

Can you define what you mean by members of the Catholic Church for me? And I’m not certain. I could be wrong. But I don’t think Episcopalians are required to attend every Sunday under penalty of mortal sin.

 

[ssa_fellow]

Can you define what you mean by members of the Catholic Church for me? And I’m not certain. I could be wrong. But I don’t think Episcopalians are required to attend every Sunday under penalty of mortal sin.

No, I’m not going to define members. The bottom line is that the Episcopal Church is far less vibrant than the Catholic Church. OK? You won’t find any articles about how the Catholic Church is facing extinction in X amount of years… want me to find one about the Episcopalian Church? *

I just gave you the numbers, the Catholic Church has grown by 15 million, the Episcopalian Church is nearly half as large today as it was at it’s peak in… whatever year they had 3.4 million members according to wikipedia.

I was just stunned to see a post saying that Catholics need to worry about Church attendence more than Episcopalians. Just looking at the numbers the Episcopalian Church is undergoing a serious crisis right now. So, when you say that Catholics are becoming Episcopal. Well… that’s a bit like boarding a sinking ship isn’t it?

Do you disagree with that analsyis? Cause that’s what I think the facts on the ground show.*

 

[NeedImprovement]

You’ve brought up a lot of good points on this thread ssa fellow - ones that have been thought through

When I was reading your most recent post, your mention of mortal sin got my wheels turning and I began wondering … …

Now according to the sources I’ve read , the Episcopal Church does have Confession , but they also appear to confuse the general confession before Communion as being ample for reception of Holy Communion , and the sources I’ve read claim that the other personal Confession is never required before receiving Holy Communion :

en.allexperts.com/q/Episcopalians-944/2008/8/confession.htm.

So the plausibility increases that :If they still have the sacrament of Confession and if some of the other posts on this thread are, um… accurate , then according to some of the posts on this thread , the Episcopal church must have had to redefine sin.

That didn’t make a whole lot of sense, so I did a little more reading around - specifically regarding the Episcopal Church’s Marriage Rite (which can be read at : The Celebration and Blessing of a Marriage .

… A funny thing guys… The preamble starts off like this

Concerning the Service

Christian marriage is a solemn and public covenant between *a man and a
woman *in the presence of God . . .

… And the entire Rite refers solely to the union of a man and a woman, exclusively .

… Go figure … … I wonder how many different Episcopal Churches there are ?

According to some of the posts on this thread , there can’t only be one .

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Homosexual activity is evil, unnatural and immoral.

A sin is a sin is a sin - whether it’s fornication, adultery or homosexuality…it is a sin of the flesh.

It’s practice creates an addiction to sins of the flesh and the perpetrator feels justified in his or her sin- to the point of excluding any scripture, logic, reasoning or contagion that can result from these activities.

It is evil and it is one of Lucifer’s greatest triumphs. Lust & pride…the sins of Lucifer’s downfall.

 

[NeedImprovement]

What’s much more odd guys , is that the link that has been continuously provided in “some of those posts” made by one person in particular … (post # 63 would be one example) ; the link entitled “Book of Common Prayer” , all 3 versions of the Marriage Rites contained in that book also refer exclusively to a man and a woman.

Click on the link,and it brings you to “The Online Book of Common Prayer”. Then in the left hand column, click on the second item “Table of Contents” . That will bring up another column beside the first one .

In that second column’s listing, scroll down until you come to the grouping entitled “Pastoral Offices” [approximately halfway down the page] and you’ll see three items listed consecutively :

• Celebration and Blessing of a Marriage
• The Blessing of a Civil Marriage
• An Order for Marriage

All three of them refer only to the union of a man and a woman - and these are the Pastoral Offices of the Episcopal Church we read when we click on that same link provided by the same person who posted post # 63 (among other posts). So the link that same person has supplied, provides information which is contradictory to what they have been claiming.

… Now I’m getting confused …… maybe there is only one Episcopal church.

 

[CMatt25]

No, I’m not going to define members. The bottom line is that the Episcopal Church is far less vibrant than the Catholic Church. OK? You won’t find any articles about how the Catholic Church is facing extinction in X amount of years… want me to find one about the Episcopalian Church? *

I just gave you the numbers, the Catholic Church has grown by 15 million, the Episcopalian Church is nearly half as large today as it was at it’s peak in… whatever year they had 3.4 million members according to wikipedia.

I was just stunned to see a post saying that Catholics need to worry about Church attendence more than Episcopalians. Just looking at the numbers the Episcopalian Church is undergoing a serious crisis right now. So, when you say that Catholics are becoming Episcopal. Well… that’s a bit like boarding a sinking ship isn’t it?

Do you disagree with that analsyis? Cause that’s what I think the facts on the ground show.*

Just because some articles are out there is not enough for me. So no I can’t really say if it’s ok or not or whether it’s boarding a sinking a ship. Nor whether I agree or disagree. Because you won’t define who the Catholic Church counts and identifies as Catholics in Her membership numbers. I’m not even certain it’s a numbers game if we take literally a narrow gate and few will enter. But in any case, God bless you on your faith journey and peace.

 

[Daizies]

I wish I could have found a link, but I do remember back when they started allowing gay marriages here in Canada, gay couples started suing churches to be allowed to use their facilities, although it did seem to drop out of the news after the United Church and others approved gay marriage.

My question is, would Catholics (and the Catholic Church) support a US government action that eliminated the issuance all marriage licenses by federal/state/local governments? All licenses from that moment on would be of the “civil union” variety - with equal rights granted to all couples (be they straight or gay). So gone is any notion that there exists any sort of legal imbalance between gay couples and straight couples.

Marriage would still be a sacrament. Anyone wishing to be “Married” would need to find a Church willing to perform the rite. As private institutions, they would be no more bound to “marry” a gay couple than the Boy Scouts are to employ a gay Scoutmaster. Though it goes without saying that couples would almost certainly call themselves “married” regardless of whether they ever sought the Church’s sanction. (But to be fair, that’s already the case.)

Actually, I think this is a good idea. I think that could eliminate the problem of people suing churches for not hosting their same-sex wedding, while still giving legal recognition to those couples that want it. It may not be an ideal solution, but I think it’s the best we could hope for in today’s society.

 

[phoooiee]

I highlighted the most important part. MUST - according to a very small percentage of the people. As you say, it has nothing to do with the will of the individuals, but has everything to do with enforcing certain rules, which are only supported by a small group of people. Whether it is called theocracy or tyranny, it does not matter. If that is what you support, you might get a rude awakening. It just so happens that Islam is the fastest growing religion, and you might find yourself living under Sharia law… how will you like that? After all the Muslims will only do what your would like to do: shape the society to their taste.

If the analogy was too complimentary describing your goals, then I must apologize.

What is the alternative? I do not see how those who are proposing gay marriage are any different. How is this not “enforcing certain rules, which are only supported by a small group of people.”

 

[phoooiee]

What is the alternative? I do not see how those who are proposing gay marriage are any different. How is this not “enforcing certain rules, which are only supported by a small group of people.”

By this logic- wouldn’t gay marriage then have been absoutely, undeniably wrong about 100 years ago, when absolutely no one would have supported it?

In Nazi Germany, wasn’t it then completely moral to persecute Jews?

I am all for the rule of the majority- but only when the rights of the minority are protected.