On the Treatment of Gay Parishioners: A Request for advice

[jamesjoseph72]

This is my first post to these forums, and I look forward to reading the responses that I receive. I have one example of an issue from parish life that I would like to get feedback on, revolving around the treatment and acceptance of a gay young man in a parish. I will frame the discussion by quoting two portions of the catechism that I try to follow, give the situation/scenario and then offer a disclaimer where I state, importantly, what I am not asking in order to avoid some of the pitfalls that may be opened by my question if people try to go off topic.

I think it is important for me to frame the situation with the quotations from the catechism not because it is the key to a “correct” answer to my scenario, but because when it comes to applying the catechism to concrete situations I am not sure what action (if any) a person should take or what a person should say (if anything) when a situation like the following happens. The situation has two complications, and please feel free to advise me on any single aspect of it or every aspect of it.

So, from the CCC:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Situation/Scenario: A high-school aged boy (young man) is preparing to be confirmed. He has attended meetings with a GLBT support group and identifies as a homosexual. He has committed himself to a life-of-chastity and is actually quite moved by the fact that the Church links his struggles so directly with the struggles of Christ.

**The problem: **He is being picked on at school for being gay, and this includes some of the children in your parish. A parent of a child who is being punished by the school for this sort of bullying comes to you for support arguing that what his child was doing should be protected by the right to free speech and that by treating the gay-dentified child in this manner his son is doing him a charity by urging him to “act like a man” and “turn away from the flamboyance of that life choice.”

Complication 1: To make the situation even worse, your son is part of the peer group doing this “charity” and has admitted to you that he has on at least one occasion called the young man the f word associated with that lifestyle. He is also now of the mindset that it is necessary for the young man to be treated like this to be “a real man.”

**Complication 2: **Lastly, you have witnessed the gay-identified youth’s treatment as he tries to participate in youth activities. No one calls him names, but he is purposefully excluded from participation and fellowship. On one occasion, you have seen a group activity where youths colluded to not admit his presence among them, pretending not to notice him, not answering his questions, and dividing up responsibilities for a project without giving him a role.

What would you do in the case of the initial problem with the parent? How could or should I respond? What about with your son? And then, what about when a group of children act this way (and just to make a note—the other parents are there)?

**What I am not asking: **Please do not use this as an opportunity to argue for the changing of the Church’s stance on homosexuality. The stance is clear. Changing this into a debate about changing established portions of church teaching is an attempt to hi-jack the thread. I am also not asking this with a pre-determined set of “right” answers in mind. I would simply like to know how real Catholics would act in a situation like this with these complexities. Finally, notice how I’m asking for Catholics to respond—please, those from other denominations, do not take this as an opportunity to take potshots at the Church I devoted my life to and that I dearly love. If you feel compelled to answer, tell me how you might act in your own parishes or faith-traditions, but please do not criticize my Church when I have found a place where a Catholic can ask other Catholics important questions they need advice about.

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time for any response to my request. I truly appreciate your time (I didn’t realize my post was going to be this long when I started–sorry).

James

 

[90Domer]

James,

Were you asking your first question as the parent of one of the teens in the group doing the excluding? If so, I hope to be able to give you a little perspective as the mom of a special needs child who is often excluded. I know this isn’t the same, the hopefully some of the advice may apply.

God bless.

 

[jamesjoseph72]

Yes, from the perspective of the parent of one of the children doing the excluding. I would appreciate receiving advice from your perspective, as a parent of a child that has been excluded. Thank you very much for replying.

 

[ActingCatholic]

Hello, thanks for your post. Looking forward to the discussion on this.

I would start by saying that none of the bullied boys’ actions would constitute an invitation for other to pass judgment on whether or not he is “a real man.” I don’t think the other students and parents would appreciate being put under the same kind of scrutiny, especially considering the fact that our example of “real manhood” is Christ crucified.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is my first post to these forums, and I look forward to reading the responses that I receive. I have one example of an issue from parish life that I would like to get feedback on, revolving around the treatment and acceptance of a gay young man in a parish. I will frame the discussion by quoting two portions of the catechism that I try to follow, give the situation/scenario and then offer a disclaimer where I state, importantly, what I am not asking in order to avoid some of the pitfalls that may be opened by my question if people try to go off topic.

I think it is important for me to frame the situation with the quotations from the catechism not because it is the key to a “correct” answer to my scenario, but because when it comes to applying the catechism to concrete situations I am not sure what action (if any) a person should take or what a person should say (if anything) when a situation like the following happens. The situation has two complications, and please feel free to advise me on any single aspect of it or every aspect of it.

So, from the CCC:

Situation/Scenario: He has committed himself to a life-of-chastity and is actually quite moved by the fact that the Church links his struggles so directly with the struggles of Christ.

**The problem: **He is being picked on at school for being gay, and this includes some of the children in your parish. A parent of a child who is being punished by the school for this sort of bullying comes to you for support arguing that what his child was doing should be protected by the right to free speech and that by treating the gay-dentified child in this manner his son is doing him a charity by urging him to “act like a man” and “turn away from the flamboyance of that life choice.”

Complication 1: To make the situation even worse, your son is part of the peer group doing this “charity” and has admitted to you that he has on at least one occasion called the young man the f word associated with that lifestyle. He is also now of the mindset that it is necessary for the young man to be treated like this to be “a real man.”

**Complication 2: **Lastly, you have witnessed the gay-identified youth’s treatment as he tries to participate in youth activities. No one calls him names, but he is purposefully excluded from participation and fellowship. On one occasion, you have seen a group activity where youths colluded to not admit his presence among them, pretending not to notice him, not answering his questions, and dividing up responsibilities for a project without giving him a role.

What would you do in the case of the initial problem with the parent? How could or should I respond? What about with your son? And then, what about when a group of children act this way (and just to make a note—the other parents are there)?

**What I am not asking: **Please do not use this as an opportunity to argue for the changing of the Church’s stance on homosexuality. The stance is clear. Changing this into a debate about changing established portions of church teaching is an attempt to hi-jack the thread. I am also not asking this with a pre-determined set of “right” answers in mind. I would simply like to know how real Catholics would act in a situation like this with these complexities. Finally, notice how I’m asking for Catholics to respond—please, those from other denominations, do not take this as an opportunity to take potshots at the Church I devoted my life to and that I dearly love. If you feel compelled to answer, tell me how you might act in your own parishes or faith-traditions, but please do not criticize my Church when I have found a place where a Catholic can ask other Catholics important questions they need advice about.

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time for any response to my request. I truly appreciate your time (I didn’t realize my post was going to be this long when I started–sorry).

James

A high-school aged boy (young man) is preparing to be confirmed. He has attended meetings with a GLBT support group and identifies as a homosexual.

If, as you say this child is Catholic, what in the world is this kid going to a GLBT support group for? Identifying as a homosexual certainly is a dilema. Why not just identify as a Catholic?

He is being picked on at school for being gay, and this includes some of the children in your parish. A parent of a child who is being punished by the school for this sort of bullying comes to you for support arguing that what his child was doing should be protected by the right to free speech and that by treating the gay-dentified child in this manner his son is doing him a charity by urging him to “act like a man” and “turn away from the flamboyance of that life choice.”

Here you are saying that being gay is what this person is as a fai de complete…or he is born that way=Essentialism.

You cannot expect a conversation about anything if you corral the conversation about what it is you believe things to be or what you want things to mean.

No such thing as being born gay and to identify as gay in this context handcuffs the discussion.

 

[marty1818]

Just a couple of questions. Is this at a Catholic school or other? Is the gay kid acting effeminate? When they say they are trying to get him to “act like a man” are they trying to get him to be less effeminate or are they trying to make him not gay and be attracted to women?

 

[jamesjoseph72]

I don’t think the other students and parents would appreciate being put under the same kind of scrutiny, especially considering the fact that our example of “real manhood” is Christ crucified.

That is very very fine point. I had not considered framing the idea of “real man” with the example of Christ masculine example. Sorry to say that I didn’t think of that, though–it seems like that should have been obvious to me now that you pointed that out. Thank you for taking the time to do so.

 

[jamesjoseph72]

Just a couple of questions. Is this at a Catholic school or other? Is the gay kid acting effeminate? When they say they are trying to get him to “act like a man” are they trying to get him to be less effeminate or are they trying to make him not gay and be attracted to women?

It’s a public high-school. It centers around anything that he does that seems effeminate to them, but includes making fun of homosexuality in general.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, from the perspective of the parent of one of the children doing the excluding. I would appreciate receiving advice from your perspective, as a parent of a child that has been excluded. Thank you very much for replying.

Now I understand. The only approach is open honest direct communication. As a parent and a Physician I would advise my child of the following information…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=769113

**The Reformation for Secular Homosexual thinking **

I would point my child and parents to the Catholic Medical Association literature in particular Homosexuality and Hope

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/homohope.HTM

I would also point my child and parents to NARTH concerning the notion of a gay identity…

Once we were all on the same page with an adequate understanding, then everyone would know that to bully anyone is wrong, to believe that anyone can or should identify as gay is not helpful, to understand that any association with a group that is LGBT support is not helping, should provide relief to the situation and mutual understanding.

 

[dee_burk]

Poor kid, how hard it is on him to be bullied when he already has resigned himself to a lonely and chaste life. Sounds to me like he already is acting like a “real man”.

Love one another as i have loved you…
He who is without sin cast the first stone…

Sounds like some people need help reading the parables.

Personally, if i knew this kid, i would go out of my way to befriend him and make sure he knows there are those who do not share this hatred and that he has someone to talk to. There are too many kids committing suicide because they are bullied and feel they have no one to talk to or trust.

 

[CopticChristian]

Poor kid, how hard it is on him to be bullied when he already has resigned himself to a lonely and chaste life. Sounds to me like he already is acting like a “real man”.

Love one another as i have loved you…
He who is without sin cast the first stone…

Sounds like some people need help reading the parables.

Personally, if i knew this kid, i would go out of my way to befriend him and make sure he knows there are those who do not share this hatred and that he has someone to talk to. .

There are too many kids committing suicide because they are bullied and feel they have no one to talk to or trust

and your data to support this statement as true is found where?

 

[DexUK]

Ignoring what Coptic has said, since he is arguing points about the ‘genesis’ of the homosexual condition which aren’t relevant here, I would suggest that if you, the OP, are in a position of authority over one or more of the kids doing the excluding, it is your duty and obligation to inform these kids that by doing so they are explicitly acting in opposition to the Church’s teachings: namely that they should be avoiding all forms of undue and unjust discrimination. Since this homosexual boy’s condition has no actual bearing on the activities that these kids are carrying out, he should be included amongst them in the same way that anyone else would be. If they continue to reject this young man in the way that they are doing, then they themselves are sinning. This information should be imparted to them carefully and it should be explained in detail what it means to discriminate unjustly.

I believe you, the OP, are already aware of this. You understand the Catechism. It is your duty to uphold it. Since the young man himself is already aware that he should uphold his side of things and is doing so, then there is no reason whatsoever that he should be avoided or ostracised. Those that are doing so are deliberately NOT loving their neighbour as they themselves would be loved, and they are, essentially, casting the first stone while not being blameless themselves. They need this explaining clearly and unequivocally. And care should be taken to ensure that they are behaving appropriately after they have this explained. Tell them that ‘real men’ don’t harm other people. Real men model themselves after Christ, who loved and cared for everyone.

 

[jamesjoseph72]

Now I understand. The only approach is open honest direct communication. As a parent and a Physician I would advise my child of the following information…

Thank you very much for the resources. I really appreciate them, and I am reviewing them now.

Sorry about the confusion caused by my post–I tried to stick with the term gay-identified consistently, but slipped up.

 

[arturosambuca]

I would tell the parent of the boy being punished that his response to his son’s actions speaks volumes why his son is involved in bulling this boy. He should be supporting the school punishments and adding a few of his own. He should sit down with his boy and tell “hate the sin and not the sinner”.
Then, I guess you should talk with your son about his behavior and he should be given some punishment and warning that this behavior will not be tolerated by you.
As for Complication 2, whoever is in charge of these youth activates should be involved in correcting the actions of these youths. The other parents watching with you should have spoken to their children, when they so what was happening as should have you.
Arturo

 

[jamesjoseph72]

I believe you, the OP, are already aware of this. You understand the Catechism. It is your duty to uphold it. Since the young man himself is already aware that he should uphold his side of things and is doing so, then there is no reason whatsoever that he should be avoided or ostracised. Those that are doing so are deliberately NOT loving their neighbour as they themselves would be loved, and they are, essentially, casting the first stone while not being blameless themselves. They need this explaining clearly and unequivocally. And care should be taken to ensure that they are behaving appropriately after they have this explained. Tell them that ‘real men’ don’t harm other people. Real men model themselves after Christ, who loved and cared for everyone.

Thank you for giving me such a thoughtful and complete response, and thank you for linking it back to the catechism as well.

James

 

[CopticChristian]

Ignoring what Coptic has said, since he is arguing points about the ‘genesis’ of the homosexual condition which aren’t relevant here, I would suggest that if you, the OP, are in a position of authority over one or more of the kids doing the excluding, it is your duty and obligation to inform these kids that by doing so they are explicitly acting in opposition to the Church’s teachings: namely that they should be avoiding all forms of undue and unjust discrimination. Since this homosexual boy’s condition has no actual bearing on the activities that these kids are carrying out, he should be included amongst them in the same way that anyone else would be. If they continue to reject this young man in the way that they are doing, then they themselves are sinning. This information should be imparted to them carefully and it should be explained in detail what it means to discriminate unjustly.

I believe you, the OP, are already aware of this. You understand the Catechism. It is your duty to uphold it. Since the young man himself is already aware that he should uphold his side of things and is doing so, then there is no reason whatsoever that he should be avoided or ostracised. Those that are doing so are deliberately NOT loving their neighbour as they themselves would be loved, and they are, essentially, casting the first stone while not being blameless themselves. They need this explaining clearly and unequivocally. And care should be taken to ensure that they are behaving appropriately after they have this explained. Tell them that ‘real men’ don’t harm other people. Real men model themselves after Christ, who loved and cared for everyone.

It is also the duty of all to educate the parents involved of what is known about same sex attraction, the secular point of view, the Catholic point of view and relate that to Church teaching. Without these building blocks there can be no understanding.

I agree that no one should bully anyone however without confronting the situation head on then there is innuendo, misunderstanding, lack of knowledge and no basis for what it is the problem truly is. The encouragement of understanding disallows any confusion.

It is as if someone that is not a therapist invoking what they think a therapist would offer or as if someone that wants the public to believe that they have medical knowledge to disperse knowledge as if it were educated.

The reality is that understanding by all creates an atmosphere for and application of Church teaching. If everyone understands what the Catholic Community, including Physicians and Therapists from a Catholic perspective believe and teach…

**Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. **

then there can be confusion as provided the APA and the secuar world or hopefully a look elsewhere for the understanding of what Catholic Physicians and therapists offer as an explanation that the Church defers noting that this is not the puvue of the Church…

The Catechism teaches…this is unexplained and we know that there is the Secular explanation and Catholic Physician/Therapist/Social Workers explanation…the Church is not going to explain it…but there are some out there trying to explain it…as you know many say things like this…and these are Catholics that say this…

a Homosexual could no more change their sexual orientation and force themselves to be attracted to the other gender than they could change the colour of their eyes.

or

I would suggest that two persons of the same gender can have a loving relationship because they can act within that relationship in ways that express that mutual love, care and affection AND harm nobody else in the process.

To ignore this foundation is to give undounded advice.

 

[DexUK]

It is also the duty of all to educate the parents involved of what is known about same sex attraction, the secular point of view, the Catholic point of view and relate that to Church teaching. Without these building blocks there can be no understanding.

I agree that no one should bully anyone however without confronting the situation head on then there is innuendo, misunderstanding, lack of knowledge and no basis for what it is the problem truly is. The encouragement of understanding disallows any confusion.

It is as if someone that is not a therapist invoking what they think a therapist would offer or as if someone that wants the public to believe that they have medical knowledge to disperse knowledge as if it were educated.

The reality is that understanding by all creates an atmosphere for and application of Church teaching. If everyone understands what the Catholic Community, including Physicians and Therapists from a Catholic perspective believe and teach…

then there can be confusion as provided the APA and the secuar world or hopefully a look elsewhere for the understanding of what Catholic Physicians and therapists offer as an explanation that the Church defers noting that this is not the puvue of the Church…

To ignore this foundation is to give undounded advice.

I don’t know what points you’re answering, Coptic, but they’re not the ones raised at the beginning of this thread. The OP is apparently a parent of one of the young people doing the ostracising. The one being ostracised is a celibate young man who identifies as homosexual but is living by the rules of the church. Since the young man himself is not sinning at all in this instance, your opinions of the APA, therapy for gay people, etc are neither here nor there.

 

[mdgspencer]

I would stop my own son from acting this way. If necessary, I would come down hard on my son.
The other things aren’t under your control. But I would also consider talking to the principal. However, I really don’t see how the school could do much about how the other students are treating him. You could pray about the situation though.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t know what points you’re answering, Coptic, but they’re not the ones raised at the beginning of this thread. The OP is apparently a parent of one of the young people doing the ostracising. The one being ostracised is a celibate young man who identifies as homosexual but is living by the rules of the church. Since the young man himself is not sinning at all in this instance, your opinions of the APA, therapy for gay people, etc are neither here nor there.

Then it is important for that parent to be fully aware of …

The Secular point of view

The Catholic Physician/Therapist point of view

and that would include an understanding of what it is they are dealing with…without understanding you are just giving unreasoned advice.

 

[ActingCatholic]

and your data to support this statement as true is found where?

One suicide is “too many.”