On the Treatment of Gay Parishioners: A Request for advice

[Dakota_Roberts]

Yes, from the perspective of the parent of one of the children doing the excluding. I would appreciate receiving advice from your perspective, as a parent of a child that has been excluded. Thank you very much for replying.

Depending on the child a sound birching might do him some good.

If, as you say this child is Catholic, what in the world is this kid going to a GLBT support group for? Identifying as a homosexual certainly is a dilema. Why not just identify as a Catholic?

Here you are saying that being gay is what this person is as a fai de complete…or he is born that way=Essentialism.

You cannot expect a conversation about anything if you corral the conversation about what it is you believe things to be or what you want things to mean.

No such thing as being born gay and to identify as gay in this context handcuffs the discussion.

In French it is either fait de complete or fait accompli, make up your mind.

Coptic: I do understand your point about the genesis of homosexuality, and I understand how it is reflective of the definition of homosexuality from the CCC 2357. I am not arguing that nor calling that part of the catechism into question

DexUk: You have described the predicament precisely.

Though it would be simpler if the young man chose not to identify himself as homosexual, he chooses to do so and sees this as directly relevant to the portions of the catechism as presented in my OP.

Pandora’s Box is open, no use trying to close it.

.

No it is not. It is not too late. I pointed out how I would handle this with my child. If this child trusted me and I caused this child to trust me and in time understood that you can’t trust everyone…it is possible…just maybe, since I have children and perhaps you do not…

children can say things one day and the next day say another…if someone said to this kid…hey you like boys…he could easily be taught to say…“hey that was yesterday…let us just play chess”…and move on…

Nothing is set in stone in childhood, and you would know that if you were a parent, and you would know that if you had children…

and I would tell this kid…you can trust your parents and me…and if someone gives you a hard time let me know and I will work with you to resolve it…I have done that…I am a parent…

it is never too late…

Indeed, you could beat a lefty into exclusively using their right hand, but it doesn’t mean it is a good idea.

jamesjoseph72,

I like the way I am hearing many faithful Catholics refer to people bearing this cross as “having same-sex attraction” and not as “being gay.” I think it frames the problem more correctly as a burden rather than as an identity (as it has already been pointed out, “Male and female He created them…”).

Also, there is a FABULOUS article in the current (May-June 2013) Catholic Answers Magazine concerning this topic that you NEED to read. The article could possibly be used in some way to properly catechize the youth and their parents at your parish. It might also be a source of encouragement for the afflicted young man.

It’s called “The Nature of Man” by Daniel Mattson. I was hoping to find it online and link it for you, but I am having no luck with that.

In the real world people don’t don’t make gay into their whole identity and in some ways “same sex attraction” is so reductionist as to be offensive.

 

[CopticChristian]

.

Depending on the child a sound birching might do him some good.

What is it you are referring to here, birching?

In French it is either fait de complete or fait accompli, make up your mind.

Insolence, lack of understanding, or a need to be correct, what is it that drives you to say such a thing. You know what is meant and to say this in this way speaks volumes for your insecurity. You, in Charity, could have said…

I know what you wrote…is this what you meant…it is usually…see how a question is answered politely and without prejudice, since you hold strong to being without prejudice, then you should act unprejudicially…

chacha.com/question/what-is-fait-de-complete

What is fait de complete? Q:

Rate This Answer

“Fait de complete” is French for “Fact of complete.” “Fait accomplis” is French for a loose translation of “it’s a done deal”.

and then

Pandora’s Box is open, no use trying to close it

How telling this is of you…as you refer to Pandora’s box, the metaphor emanates from your thinking, as you look at the myth…

Pandora opened it, and all evil contained therein escaped and spread over the earth. She hastened to close the container, but the whole contents had escaped…

You believe in your subconscous that the spirit of evil has escaped and there is no returning it to the box. Thanks for the insight.

Indeed, you could beat a lefty into exclusively using their right hand, but it doesn’t mean it is a good idea.

This should be understood as the Secular gay agenda proposition that is nothing more than Essentialism=Born that way…ascrbing handedness as if this is similar to being born this way and should be seen for what it is.

In the real world people don’t don’t make gay into their whole identity and in some ways “same sex attraction” is so reductionist as to be offensive

In the real world this is opinion that emanates from one prejudicial insulting person, that see homosexual feelings as evil having escaped and there is not returning them to the box from which they came promoting Essentialism=Born that way suggesting that being left handed is as if the person is question was born that way…and does not in any way relate to what “people” whoever those people are, not having spoken to or met or interviewed all people=your opinion, based on what we do not know.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am starting to understand that even my thread title referring to this youth as a “gay parishioner” is part of the problem of my own thought and understanding, That had also not occurred to me until you pointed it out in this post, walterfiat.

JamesJoseph,

Yes.

You have insight. You now understand. You can now relate to the understanding that in your mind, not knowing where information comes from that there is controversy.

Gay parishoner? How about Parishoner that is struggling, with expression of that struggle.

When you read, you have to understand that there is a controversy…created by the Secular World, wanting to force people to believe that there is Adam, Eve and people born that way=Essentialism, another form of creation, a lie, not true and if you do not know this lie you will fall into the trap…look for things like this…

There are some that do not realize that they are promoting Essentialism=Born that Way and some that do so knowingly. The problem is recognizing this thinking and you can…look for statements like these…

but he is only telling the truth about himself.

That cat is already out of the bag.

Indeed, you could beat a lefty into exclusively using their right hand,

a Homosexual could no more change their sexual orientation and force themselves to be attracted to the other gender than they could change the colour of their eyes.

When you see this, don’t accept it and realize that this is nothing more than Essentialism=Born that Way=God made me this way…

Get hold of Homosexuality and Hope found here…

catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0039.html

and in the section “not born that way”…read the truth

1. Not born that way

A number of researchers have sought to find a biological cause for same-sexual attraction. The media has promoted the idea that a “gay gene” has already been discovered (Burr 1996), but in spite of several attempts none of the much publicized studies (Hamer 1993: LeVay 1991) have been scientifically replicated. (Gadd 1998) A number of authors have carefully reviewed these studies and found that they not only do not prove a genetic basis for same-sex attraction, they do not even claim to have scientific evidence for such a claim. (Byrne 1963: Crewdson 1995: Goldberg1992; Horgan 1995: McGuire 1995: Porter 1996; Rice 1999)

There are, however, ongoing attempts to convince the public that same-sex attraction is genetically based.

It is, therefore, probably wise to avoid wherever possible using the words “homosexual” and “heterosexual” as nouns since such usage implies a fixed state and an equivalence between the natural state of man and woman as created by God and persons experiencing same sex attractions or behaviors.

The more you understand, the better prepared you are to be a witness and to help. Study the material and the converstaions at the link I provided…

The Reformation for Secular Homosexual Thinking…

and help reverse the trend in brainwashing from the Homosexual driven APA and the other organizations that have been taken over by the Homosexuals trying to convince the world that they are just created this way…leading to “gay rights” suggesting that black people had problems…“gay marriage” and “gay adoption”…once you accept Essentialism then the rest of the brainwashing takes place.

 

[kag1982]

This is still an issue?? I had a gay friend when I went to Catholic prep school who got called names, but that was over a decade ago. I thought things changed.

As for the situation in question, I’d tell the parents of the bully that the school was correct to punish their child. The gay child in question is not sinning but taunting another person surely is. As if my own child had admitted to doing something like that, I’d make him apologize to the victim. I’d also let my son know that it would be Christlike to ensure that the teen in question was included in youth group activities.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is still an issue?? I had a gay friend when I went to Catholic prep school who got called names, but that was over a decade ago. I thought things changed.

As for the situation in question, I’d tell the parents of the bully that the school was correct to punish their child. The gay child in question is not sinning but taunting another person surely is. As if my own child had admitted to doing something like that, I’d make him apologize to the victim. I’d also let my son know that it would be Christlike to ensure that the teen in question was included in youth group activities.

Yes, this is an issue. The issue is magnified by your mention of a decade ago, your believing that someone is their behavior.

“I had a gay friend”…CBT, originated in the 60’s and exploded onto the scene in the 70’s and I see that a decade ago you did not get the message…we are not our behavior.

Your friend was a person that had sexual desires for the same person and called themselves gay and you compound the problem by accepting that this person is their behavior.

Things have changed.

 

[kag1982]

Yes, this is an issue. The issue is magnified by your mention of a decade ago, your believing that someone is their behavior.

“I had a gay friend”…CBT, originated in the 60’s and exploded onto the scene in the 70’s and I see that a decade ago you did not get the message…we are not our behavior.

Your friend was a person that had sexual desires for the same person and called themselves gay and you compound the problem by accepting that this person is their behavior.

Things have changed.

The Catholic Church doesn’t judge the person, but the behavior. Some people have attractions to those of the same sex. I believe that these attractions are genetic and is long as the person refrains from acting on; the attractions are not sinful. And acting on these urges is no more sinful than a straight couple having sex outside of marriage.

The teen in question is remaining celibate. There is no reason to try to convince him he is straight or demand he get married. How awful for his wife to be married to someone not attracted to her!

And it is most definitely important to be welcoming to everyone. The gay teen did not commit a sin. The bullies did. There is nothing wrong with being friends with a gay person.

 

[hazcompat]

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/homosexuality/

Peace

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Yes, this is an issue. The issue is magnified by your mention of a decade ago, your believing that someone is their behavior.

“I had a gay friend”…CBT, originated in the 60’s and exploded onto the scene in the 70’s and I see that a decade ago you did not get the message…we are not our behavior.

Your friend was a person that had sexual desires for the same person and called themselves gay and you compound the problem by accepting that this person is their behavior.

Things have changed.

That poster didn’t suggest that.

 

[CopticChristian]

The Catholic Church doesn’t judge the person, but the behavior. Some people have attractions to those of the same sex. And acting on these urges is no more sinful than a straight couple having sex outside of marriage.

The teen in question is remaining celibate. There is no reason to try to convince him he is straight or demand he get married. How awful for his wife to be married to someone not attracted to her!

And it is most definitely important to be welcoming to everyone. The gay teen did not commit a sin. The bullies did. There is nothing wrong with being friends with a gay person.

I believe that these attractions are genetic and is long as the person refrains from acting on; the attractions are not sinful.

You have chosen to believe something that has no proof…there is not now or ever been any proof of Essentialism=Born that way=Genetic…

See Homosexuality and Hope…

Not born that way…

 

[CopticChristian]

That poster didn’t suggest that.

So, do you often see a need to rescue another when they can probably speak for themselves?

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

So, do you often see a need to rescue another when they can probably speak for themselves?

You seem to often misunderstand people in rather predictable ways which suggests an incomplete grasp of the English language which to be honest is common amongst native speakers in addition to people learning English as a non-primary language.

 

[CopticChristian]

.

Let’s see here DR.

You…

addressing me as a person…

lacking any ability to discuss issues, you address the person…Ok…

**seem to often misunderstand people in rather predictable ways which **

Well, this is your perception. I understand quite well. Am I predictable? Possibly. That may or may not be a good thing. I am repetitive and consistent. I grant you that. Things are not always as they seem and sometimes questions can aid in clarity of understanding.

suggests an incomplete grasp of the English language which to be honest is common amongst native speakers

Your suggestion is incorrect and therefore your comment is critical and your lack of integrity and honesty is apparent.

in addition to people learning English as a non-primary language

In recognition that you addressed me and not an issue, it indicates again you lack abiility to discuss issues and address the person, incorrectly I might add…

"In addition… "in other words and here is more of the the same poppycock that I have thrown at you…

Your assumption is in error as is your premise leading to a faulty conclusion. You may want to ask a question as this would be of more use than attempting to infer what you wrongly assume.

Want to try asking a simple question and get a simple answer?

 

[kag1982]

You have chosen to believe something that has no proof…there is not now or ever been any proof of Essentialism=Born that way=Genetic…

See Homosexuality and Hope…

Not born that way…

Yes… It is a genetic thing. This doesn’t mean that the child in question who seems to be devoutly Catholic wants to be gay. In fact, the opposite seems likely. I’m not sure he is excited about getting bullied and ignored in the youth group. The teen seems trying to live up to Catholic standards unlike the other children who are sinning by bullying him. Even if the child does sin, his sin is no worse than if the straight bully sleeps with his girlfriend.

And no… Not everyone is called to marriage. It would be sinful to force the child to get married. It is hurtful to his wife and potential children.

 

[jamesjoseph72]

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/homosexuality/

Peace

Thank you for making these resources available to me. I did not know that so many documents of this nature existed. This is very helpful.

 

[CopticChristian]

This doesn’t mean that the child in question who seems to be devoutly Catholic wants to be gay. The teen seems trying to live up to Catholic standards unlike the other children who are sinning by bullying him. Even if the child does sin, his sin is no worse than if the straight bully sleeps with his girlfriend.

And no… Not everyone is called to marriage. It would be sinful to force the child to get married. It is hurtful to his wife and potential children.

Yes… It is a genetic thing.

Provide proof, as this is contrary to the Catholic Medical Association, Homosexuality and Hope…there is no proof of this…can you find some?

Homosexuality and Hope can be found here…

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/homohope.HTM

There are, however, ongoing attempts to convince the public that same-sex attraction is genetically based. (Marmor 1975[13]) Such attempts may be politically motivated because people are more likely to respond positively to demands for changes in laws and religious teaching when they believe sexual attraction to be genetically determined and unchangeable. (Ernulf 1989[14]; Piskur 1992[15]) Others have sought to prove a genetic basis for same-sex attraction so that they could appeal to the courts for rights based on the “immutability”. (Green 1988[16])

You appear to have swallowed the red pill that is put out by the Secular world concerning Homosexuality…that started with the APA…

In fact, the opposite seems likely. I’m not sure he is excited about getting bullied and ignored in the youth group.

Conjecture, projection and fantasy absent a conversation with the child in question.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thank you for making these resources available to me. I did not know that so many documents of this nature existed. This is very helpful.

This is not as good, in my opinion, and the opinion of a mother, on this forum, with a child that has SSA…she recommends and I agree that the Canadian Bishops do a better job, found here…

cccb.ca/site/images/stories/pdf/ministry-ssa_en.pdf

Pastoral Ministry to
Young People with
Same-Sex Attraction

 

[kag1982]

Um… basically, you are rejecting the idea of a lay vocation. The child is excluded from the priesthood because of his orientation. What is he supposed to do… marry?? How hurtful that might be to potential wife!! The boy is attracted to other men… He is striving to live in line with the Catholic Church. Let’s be Pollyanna and think of the boy’s vocation… Perhaps he is a brilliant student and he is supposed to be the person who cures cancer. The long nights and research might preclude him from having a family

 

[CopticChristian]

Um… basically, you are rejecting the idea of a lay vocation. The child is excluded from the priesthood because of his orientation. What is he supposed to do… marry?? How hurtful that might be to potential wife!! The boy is attracted to other men… He is striving to live in line with the Catholic Church. Let’s be Pollyanna and think of the boy’s vocation… Perhaps he is a brilliant student and he is supposed to be the person who cures cancer. The long nights and research might preclude him from having a family

To whom are you addressing these comments about rejecting a vocation, hurtful, and whatever…?

 

[jamesjoseph72]

This is not as good, in my opinion, and the opinion of a mother, on this forum, with a child that has SSA…she recommends and I agree that the Canadian Bishops do a better job…]

Sorry to say this after all of the time you have dedicated to my original posting, but I do have a problem here.

My profile, which I need to work on, doesn’t state it, so you might be confused about my location. I’m in the USA, so my first impulse is to always follow those inheritors of the Apostles that govern my regional area first. If i don’t, I have no other justification other than my personal opinion on who constitutes the most direct authority over my region. It’s like “doctor shopping” to me–looking around to find the doctor that will give me what I (personally) want. I have studied the material at that site on and off today when I have had time. It is a lot of information to digest, but it gives me the opportunity to examine my own preconceived notions and to connect with Christ through the guidance of the teachers of my faith.

I’ll change my profile immediately to note my location. Again, I do not mean to minimize or neglect the great contribution that you have given to my original post, Coptic. Thank you.

In Christ,

James

 

[CopticChristian]

Sorry to say this after all of the time you have dedicated to my original posting, but I do have a problem here.

My profile, which I need to work on, doesn’t state it, so you might be confused about my location. I’m in the USA, so my first impulse is to always follow those inheritors of the Apostles that govern my regional area first. If i don’t, I have no other justification other than my personal opinion on who constitutes the most direct authority over my region. It’s like “doctor shopping” to me–looking around to find the doctor that will give me what I (personally) want. I have studied the material at that site on and off today when I have had time. It is a lot of information to digest, but it gives me the opportunity to examine my own preconceived notions and to connect with Christ through the guidance of the teachers of my faith.

I’ll change my profile immediately to note my location. Again, I do not mean to minimize or neglect the great contribution that you have given to my original post, Coptic. Thank you.

In Christ,

James

No, I am not confused by your location. Bishops are Bishops. It is not like Dr. Shopping. The Canadian Statement was brought to my attention by a poster on CAF, whose son has SSA. I read it and agreed, as she did that the wording is better. Read what you like, accept what you like. The Statement of the Bishops are both relevant…

Where you see the Bishop…there is the Catholic Church…just another view of the same Church speaking from another area, not contradictory, complimentary…

The important thing is that you realize that, as you posted, jading the conversation by stating “gay catholic” and the like implies much and to understand that you have a parishoner struggling, as we all struggle, yet struggling more publically speaks volumes of understanding rather than labeling someone this or that…

The days of the Protestant Scarlet Letter should be gone, never to return…