On WHAT basis does your Church claim to be the One TRUE-Faith Church of the Bible?

[susanlo]

Not the best example of being OK to disagree.

You and you’re brother I assume are disagreeing about personal things.

Well, sometimes we disagree about religion. Sometimes we disagree about how we should best honor our parents - i.e. for their birthday celebration.

My main point, though, is that we are both children of our parents because our parents have accepted us, not because we agree with each other. I imagine a set of adopted siblings would be a better example. If a parent adopts 2 children, they are siblings - not because they always agree with each other - but because they are both children of the same parent. We could argue that certain Christians aren’t accepted as God’s children, but that is a different discussion.

 

[susanlo]

While the CC is the HOLDER of ALL of the Key’s to heaven single gate Mt 16:18-19

The Catholic Church Alone is given directly and precisely the COMMAND "Cf. YOU GO Teach the WORLD all that I have taught to YOU

And the CC alone extends the OT Tradition of God, in every case, choosing Just One Chosen People, that Jesus calls’ "MY Church: Mt 16:18

There are biblically NO, zip, zero instances of GOD ever being OK, tolerating, approving of, or in any way accepting competing sets of Faith beliefs. WHY IS THAT?

God Bless you,
Patrick

The rock of Matthew 16:18 has been a subject of debate for a long time. Roman Catholics usually feel that the rock is Peter and his successors, while non-Catholics think the rock is Jesus, or the confession of faith in Jesus.

When I look at how rock was used as a metaphor in the OT it is always used to refer to God or Jesus:
Deuteronomy 32:4
“The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Deuteronomy 32:15
“But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked— You are grown fat, thick, and sleek— Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

Deuteronomy 32:18
“You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth.

Deuteronomy 32:30-31
“How could one chase a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight, Unless their Rock had sold them, And the Lord had given them up? “Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.

1 Samuel 2:2
“There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:2
He said, “The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;

2 Samuel 22:3
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

2 Samuel 22:32
“For who is God, besides the Lord? And who is a rock, besides our God?

2 Samuel 22:47
“The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be God, the** rock **of my salvation,

2 Samuel 23:3
“The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, ‘He who rules over men righteously, Who rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God,

Psalm 18:46
The Lord lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation,

Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 28:1
A Prayer for Help, and Praise for Its Answer. ] A Psalm of David. ] To You, O Lord, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.

Psalm 31:2
Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me.

Psalm 31:3
For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name’s sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 42:9
I will say to God my rock, “Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?”

Psalm 61:2
From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.

Psalm 62:2
He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken.

Psalm 62:6-7
He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be shaken. On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

Psalm 71:3
Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

Psalm 78:35
And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Psalm 89:26
“He will cry to Me, ‘You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.’

Psalm 92:15
To declare that the Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Psalm 94:22
But the Lord has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.

Psalm 95:1
Praise to the Lord, and Warning against Unbelief. ] O come, let us sing for joy to the Lord, Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.

Psalm 144:1
Prayer for Rescue and Prosperity. ] A Psalm of David. ] Blessed be the Lord, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;

Isaiah 8:14
“Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 17:10
For you have forgotten the God of your salvation And have not remembered the rock of your refuge. Therefore you plant delightful plants And set them with vine slips of a strange god.

Isaiah 26:4
“Trust in the Lord forever, For in God the Lord, we have an everlasting Rock.

Isaiah 30:29
You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel.

Isaiah 44:8
‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.’”

Habakkuk 1:12
Are You not from everlasting, O Lord, my God, my Holy One? We will not die. You, O Lord, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.
(continued)

 

[susanlo]

Not the best example of being OK to disagree.

You and you’re brother I assume are disagreeing about personal things.

While the CC is the HOLDER of ALL of the Key’s to heaven single gate Mt 16:18-19

The CC is alone protected by BOTH The Holy Spirit and Jesus Jn. 17:18-19 & Mt 28:19-20

The Catholic Church Alone is given directly and precisely the COMMAND "Cf. YOU GO Teach the WORLD all that I have taught to YOU

And the CC alone extends the OT Tradition of God, in every case, choosing Just One Chosen People, that Jesus calls’ "MY Church: Mt 16:18

There are biblically NO, zip, zero instances of GOD ever being OK, tolerating, approving of, or in any way accepting competing sets of Faith beliefs. WHY IS THAT?

God Bless you,
Patrick

And then in the NT the term petra is used in:
1 Corinthians 10:4
and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
(speaking of the Israelites in the desert)

and

1 Peter 2:8
and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
(Isaiah 8:14)

and another form of the word petra is used in:
Romans 9:33
just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
(Isaiah 8:14)

Matthew 16:16-18:
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are [j]the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon [k]Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Is this one occasion a time when Jesus is declaring someone other than Jesus or God to be a rock? Or did Jesus name Peter after himself? I actually am not sure. I have been looking into it.

Early theologians had different commentaries on this. I have been trying to study what they said about this topic.

Origen – Commentary on Matthew
10. The Answer of Peter.
“And perhaps that which Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God, Matthew 16:16 if we say it as Peter, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven shining in our heart, we too become as Peter, being pronounced blessed as he was, because that the grounds on which he was pronounced blessed apply also to us, by reason of the fact that flesh and blood have not revealed to us with regard to Jesus that He is Christ, the Son of the living God, but the Father in heaven, from the very heavens, that our citizenship may be in heaven, Philippians 3:20 revealing to us the revelation which carries up to heaven those who take away every veil from the heart, and receive the spirit of the wisdom and revelation of God. Ephesians 1:17 And if we too have said like Peter, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God, not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, You are Peter, etc. Matthew 16:18 For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.”
newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm

Augustine
Sermon 229P
“Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He’s the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On hearing this, Jesus said to him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you’…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ.
Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.”

Whether the great commission in John 17 and Matthew 28 was just for a certain group or if it is for all of Christianity is unclear. It doesn’t say in there ‘Roman Catholic Church’ or ‘those who submit to the successors of Peter.’ To make it say that is reading something in. Many people have had different understandings of this and the Bible passages don’t give a specific answer.

Tertullian
Scorpiace
“For though you think heaven still shut, remember that the Lord left here to Peter and through him to the Church, the keys of it, which every one who has been here put to the question, and also made confession, will carry with him.”
newadvent.org/fathers/0318.htm

 

[Abu]

Susanlo #101
Whether the great commission in John 17 and Matthew 28 was just for a certain group or if it is for all of Christianity is unclear. It doesn’t say in there ‘Roman Catholic Church’ or ‘those who submit to the successors of Peter.’ To make it say that is reading something in. Many people have had different understandings of this and the Bible passages don’t give a specific answer.

There is nothing unclear as Jesus was very specific – “MY CHURCH”. There was no other “Christianity” until others began to remove themselves from the authority which Christ so clearly bestowed on St Peter and the apostles – that authority that post #97 reveals.

As you know Catholic means “general” or “universal”, and was first used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2).

Breakaways have occurred right through history, beginning in Apostolic times. Simon Magus, mentioned in the New Testament, was really the forerunner of independent men who set up religions of their own. Christ Himself predicted that men would do this, saying, “There will arise false Christs and false prophets to seduce if possible even the elect.” [Mk. 13: 22]. But in spite of this, He promised to His true Church, “I will be with you all days even to the end of the world.” In the first centuries there were heretical founders of rival Churches – men whose names are found only in textbooks of history – Montanus, Manichaeus, Arius, Donatus, etc. In later centuries we find the founders of the Greek Church, Photius and Michael Cerularius. And later still the founders of the various Protestant Churches–Luther, Henry VIII., John Knox, and a host of others.

As the Catholic Church collected and authorised the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God and Jesus wants all believers to be in His Catholic Church [Jn 17:20-26], there is no other answer in reality.

 

[Wannano]

Where do you find that “Jesus called his church ‘the Catholic Church’ ”?

1. Catholic means universal as first used by St Ignatius of Antioch who pointed out (A.D. 35-107, Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2): “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
2. The Apostles recognised St Peter as the first Pope because they obeyed Jesus when He specifically put Peter in charge and no one else:

All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)
**
Sole authority to Peter alone:**
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Later to the twelve also:
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”

1. Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

The third successor of St Peter, Pope Clement, wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1). This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

Christ’s Catholic Church teaches that other Christians are linked to the Catholic Church through baptism though not having the fullness of truth.

Thank you for trying to answer my query but I think you may have misunderstood my questions.

I asked where Jesus called His Church the name Catholic, St. Ignatius is not Jesus.

To say the Apostles recognized Peter as the first pope because they accepted him in a ledership role is a big stretch. Why is there no reference by the New Testament writers to Pope Peter if they recognized him as the first Pope?

I nowhere see in the New Testament that the churches that the letters were written to had the name Catholic attached to it, as in “To the Catholic Church of Rome, Corinthians etc”. To substantiate that the New Testament churches were Catholic hierarchical institutions by quoting Pope Clement wielding his man given power does not prove what I am asking.

 

[fbl9]

I would say off the top of my head that a Christian is somebody who believes in God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. A Christian believes salvation is through Jesus Christ who was born, died and resurrected. They follow the Ten Commandments and the commandments to love God and love your neighbor from Matthew 22. I think these are the essentials that I can think of.

I don’t think it is necessary to be in agreement on everything. My disagreeing with my biological brother doesn’t mean that he is not still the son of my parents. We don’t have to agree on everything to be brother and sister.

In Acts 15:39 Paul and Barnabas have a “sharp disagreement” and part company. They are still brothers in Christ even if they don’t agree and choose to go their separate ways.

The thread sure has moved. What if the disagreement between
St.Paul and Barnabas was about circumcision. With one saying it was necessary and the other not. Would they still be brothers in Christ.

 

[benhur]

Lowest common denominator seems to be prevalent these days.

Yet we are promised the best is yet to come, the down payment in our hearts.

Blessings

 

[lantheria]

All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)
**
Sole authority to Peter alone:**
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Later to the twelve also:
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”

Do you not get tired of posting the exact same thing over and over and over?

 

[Abu]

Wannano #103
To say the Apostles recognized Peter as the first pope because they accepted him in a ledership role is a big stretch.

POPE. Title of the visible head of the Catholic Church. He is called Pope (Greek pappas, a child’s word for father) because his authority is supreme and because it is to be exercised in a paternal way, after the example of Christ.
Modern Catholic Dictionary
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

The evidence of Peter as the leader is overwhelming:
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

Peter often spoke for the rest of the Apostles (Mt 19:27; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69). The Apostles are sometimes referred to as “Peter and his companions” (Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7; Acts 2:37). Peter’s name always heads the list of the Apostles (Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13). Finally, Peter’s name is mentioned 191 times, which is more than all the rest of the Apostles combined (about 130 times).

After Peter, the most frequently mentioned Apostle is John, whose name appears 48 times. Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church’s important “firsts.” Peter led the meeting which elected the first successor to an Apostle ( Acts 1:13-26). Peter preached the first sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and received the first converts (Acts 2:4 1). Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

Christ gave no one else the authority that He gave to St Peter alone. Having built His Church on St Peter He promised the Holy Spirit’s guidance to “all truth”:
“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).

The words of Christ need to be heeded by all who would be Christians.

As the Christ specifically installed only Peter, clearly chosen on whom He built His Church, the only “stretch” is the attempt to deny that.

I nowhere see in the New Testament that the churches that the letters were written to had the name Catholic attached to it, as in “To the Catholic Church of Rome, Corinthians etc”.

You can have the NT only because the Catholic Church authorised what books are the Word of God as the Sacred Scriptures. The term Catholic is not used in the title of Papal Documents as being unnecessary.

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo. You mentioned about St. Peter being the “rock” in Matthew 16.

The rock of Matthew 16:18 has been a subject of debate for a long time. Roman Catholics usually feel that the rock is Peter and his successors, while non-Catholics think the rock is Jesus, or the confession of faith in Jesus.

I think we as Catholics see and affirm ALL these dimensions.

We see Peter as the “Cephas” or “Petros” or “rock” because Jesus said it.

We see Jesus in a sense as “rock” because of who Jesus is (True God and True Man). That is who St. Peter derives his “rockness” from. Jesus gratuitously gives Simon this sublime participation in Himself as a gift to the Church (Catholics are NOT saying Peter is God but rather Jesus who is God, allows a special sharing or participation in His ministry here).

And we also see St. Peter’s confession of faith in a sense being involved here.

• Peter as Rock or “Cephas”
• Jesus the source
• Heavenly confession of faith from the mouth of Peter involved too

Catholics don’t DENY ANY of these senses.

CCC 424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.

CCC 552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” Christ, the “living Stone”, thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.

Even the fact Jesus names Simon “Rock” or Peter AT Caesarea Philippi is almost certainly significant. (See illustration of Caesarea Philippi and the “Gates of Hades” here and actual photo of the large “ROCK” at Caesarea Philippi here)

I think some (I am not saying YOU Susanlo) of our Bible-only friends and family members are over-compensating for their Bible ONLY Christianity, by denying what Jesus plainly said.

God bless.

Cathoholic

Not JOHN 1:42 (phantom verse) 42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John.** You will never be called Cephas**” (which, when translated, is Peter) because that can refer ONLY to me.

Not JOHN 1:42 (phantom verse)) 42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You ARE NOW called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter).

JOHN 1:42 (NIV) 42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You WILL BE called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter).

Emphasis in John 1:42 mine. Cephas of course, is the transliteration of the Aramaic word for . . . . “ROCK”.

 

[susanlo]

The thread sure has moved. What if the disagreement between
St.Paul and Barnabas was about circumcision. With one saying it was necessary and the other not. Would they still be brothers in Christ.

I don’t see why they wouldn’t be. I don’t think unintentional misunderstanding or disagreeing with each other would make God not accept one of them.

 

[susanlo]

Susanlo. You mentioned about St. Peter being the “rock” in Matthew 16.

I think we as Catholics see and affirm ALL these dimensions.

We see Peter as the “Cephas” or “Petros” or “rock” because Jesus said it.

We see Jesus in a sense as “rock” because of who Jesus is (True God and True Man). That is who St. Peter derives his “rockness” from. Jesus gratuitously gives Simon this sublime participation in Himself as a gift to the Church (Catholics are NOT saying Peter is God but rather Jesus who is God, allows a special sharing or participation in His ministry here).

And we also see St. Peter’s confession of faith in a sense being involved here.

• Peter as Rock or “Cephas”
• Jesus the source
• Heavenly confession of faith from the mouth of Peter involved too

Catholics don’t DENY ANY of these senses.

CCC 424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.

CCC 552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” Christ, the “living Stone”, thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.

Even the fact Jesus names Simon “Rock” or Peter AT Caesarea Philippi is almost certainly significant. (See illustration of Caesarea Philippi and the “Gates of Hades” here and actual photo of the large “ROCK” at Caesarea Philippi here)

I think some (I am not saying YOU Susanlo) of our Bible-only friends and family members are over-compensating for their Bible ONLY Christianity, by denying what Jesus plainly said.

God bless.

Cathoholic

Not JOHN 1:42 (phantom verse) 42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John.** You will never be called Cephas**” (which, when translated, is Peter) because that can refer ONLY to me.

Not JOHN 1:42 (phantom verse)) 42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You ARE NOW called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter).

JOHN 1:42 (NIV) 42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You WILL BE called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter).

Emphasis in John 1:42 mine. Cephas of course, is the transliteration of the Aramaic word for . . . . “ROCK”.

It is meaningful that Simon had his name changed to Petros - and that the church was built on a petra. I just don’t know what the extent of the significance is. It seems he was the first one to confess of Christ. Does this mean he was the leader? I don’t think the Scriptures and early literature are very clear. Some people want to make it so simple that Peter and all that succeed as Bishop of Rome are the undisputed authority and rock of the church, but that isn’t always the picture painted in history. As someone who was raised in a vibrant faith community and having had a great relationship with Christ since my teens, I would need to see a clear reason why I MUST put my faith in a man on earth to be part of Christ’s church. I have been trying to study a lot about Christian history and trying to understand the different sides as best as I can.

 

[rcwitness]

In the beginning it was apostolic tradition/faith/teaching and their writ that was the source for normative revelation. This is what congregations/churches/councils used as benchmarks. As you know we now have varied church structures/orthodoxies and varied councils dealing with heresy.

Blessings

Hi rc,

I beg to differ. You mean councils and the CC and OC and P churches have no way to deal with

Blessings

You said, correctly, that it was by “apostolic tradition/faith/teaching and their writ”. But now, it is “varied”. Varied tells me nothing.

The time when the Church used “apostolic tradition/faith/teaching and their writ” was when they discerned and canonized Sacred Scripture! At this time, there was a Pope and unity. Likewise, in the beginning of Acts, the greatest time of unity and peace was when Peter stood up, and the Twelve were given great reverence.

 

[rcwitness]

Thank you for trying to answer my query but I think you may have misunderstood my questions.

I asked where Jesus called His Church the name Catholic, St. Ignatius is not Jesus.

To say the Apostles recognized Peter as the first pope because they accepted him in a ledership role is a big stretch. Why is there no reference by the New Testament writers to Pope Peter if they recognized him as the first Pope?

I nowhere see in the New Testament that the churches that the letters were written to had the name Catholic attached to it, as in “To the Catholic Church of Rome, Corinthians etc”. To substantiate that the New Testament churches were Catholic hierarchical institutions by quoting Pope Clement wielding his man given power does not prove what I am asking.

Hey bro,

I was going to share Scriptures that support the Catholic Church and Her office of Pope, but I see you are interested in the terms “Catholic” and “Pope”, so I’ll provide a couple Scriptures that support the terms:

Isaiah 22

I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station.20In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah,21and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.22And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.23And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.24And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house*, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons

newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm
Acts 9

So the church throughout all (greek-katholikos, meaning ‘of the whole’) Judea and Galilee and Samar′ia had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

32*Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints that lived at Lydda.

newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

 

[Wannano]

POPE. Title of the visible head of the Catholic Church. He is called Pope (Greek pappas, a child’s word for father) because his authority is supreme and because it is to be exercised in a paternal way, after the example of Christ.
Modern Catholic Dictionary
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

The evidence of Peter as the leader is overwhelming:
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

Peter often spoke for the rest of the Apostles (Mt 19:27; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69). The Apostles are sometimes referred to as “Peter and his companions” (Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7; Acts 2:37). Peter’s name always heads the list of the Apostles (Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13). Finally, Peter’s name is mentioned 191 times, which is more than all the rest of the Apostles combined (about 130 times).

After Peter, the most frequently mentioned Apostle is John, whose name appears 48 times. Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church’s important “firsts.” Peter led the meeting which elected the first successor to an Apostle ( Acts 1:13-26). Peter preached the first sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and received the first converts (Acts 2:4 1). Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

Christ gave no one else the authority that He gave to St Peter alone. Having built His Church on St Peter He promised the Holy Spirit’s guidance to “all truth”:
“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).

The words of Christ need to be heeded by all who would be Christians.

As the Christ specifically installed only Peter, clearly chosen on whom He built His Church, the only “stretch” is the attempt to deny that.

You can have the NT only because the Catholic Church authorised what books are the Word of God as the Sacred Scriptures. The term Catholic is not used in the title of Papal Documents as being unnecessary.

Thanks Abu, you have at least attempted to give me answers, at least to one of my questions.

 

[Wannano]

Hey bro,

I was going to share Scriptures that support the Catholic Church and Her office of Pope, but I see you are interested in the terms “Catholic” and “Pope”, so I’ll provide a couple Scriptures that support the terms:

Isaiah 22

I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station.20In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah,21and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.22And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.23And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.24And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house*, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons

newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm
Acts 9

So the church throughout all (greek-katholikos, meaning ‘of the whole’) Judea and Galilee and Samar′ia had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

32*Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints that lived at Lydda.

newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

Hi rc, I imagine it is hard to give direct answers to my questions since the term Pope wasn’t used unil the fourth century. Correct me if I am wrong on that

The OT passage you presented to substantiate the office of Pope is interesting. Do you really believe this passage to be a revelation of the coming popes? The footnotes in my Bible say that Elikam, Shebna’s successor would initially serve the Lord and king but eventually was deposed and the kingdom of Judah taken into captivity.

No doubt Peter was a leader, his personality shows itself several times causing him to be admonished even by Jesus. There is a pecking order in every group of people and personalities like Peter usually come out as leaders. Does the fact that he visited the churches make him the Pope. That is my question rc, why dIdn’t Paul and the others refer to him as Pope Peter? Did Peter ever know he was a Pope?

 

[JustaServant]

Hi rc, I imagine it is hard to give direct answers to my questions since the term Pope wasn’t used unil the fourth century. Correct me if I am wrong on that

The OT passage you presented to substantiate the office of Pope is interesting. Do you really believe this passage to be a revelation of the coming popes? The footnotes in my Bible say that Elikam, Shebna’s successor would initially serve the Lord and king but eventually was deposed and the kingdom of Judah taken into captivity.

No doubt Peter was a leader, his personality shows itself several times causing him to be admonished even by Jesus. There is a pecking order in every group of people and personalities like Peter usually come out as leaders. Does the fact that he visited the churches make him the Pope. That is my question rc, why dIdn’t Paul and the others refer to him as Pope Peter? Did Peter ever know he was a Pope?

Wannano, I don’t know if anyone has pointed this out to you, I haven’t really been following the thread.
“Pope” is simply Italian for “Papa” or “Father”. Calling a priest or a Bishop ‘father’ dates back to the early Church.
I’ve never been sure why people make a big deal about this. It was never an issue for me even when I was a Baptist.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano, I don’t know if anyone has pointed this out to you, I haven’t really been following the thread.
“Pope” is simply Italian for “Papa” or “Father”. Calling a priest or a Bishop ‘father’ dates back to the early Church.
I’ve never been sure why people make a big deal about this. It was never an issue for me even when I was a Baptist.

And here I thought it meant vicar or Christ’s replacement on earth!

 

[JustaServant]

And here I thought it meant vicar or Christ’s replacement on earth!

A priest is acting on Christ’s behalf as His representative. Like an Ambassador speaks for the leader of his country.
There is no “replacement” for Christ.

 

[Kliska]

And here I thought it meant vicar or Christ’s replacement on earth!

The Pope has different titles, one is Pope, one is The Vicar of Christ. Pope does mean papa, with Vicar means, at is basic level, substitute. The Pope is seen to be the substitute on earth, or the representative on earth of Jesus. The visible representative, who represents Christ on earth.