On WHAT basis does your Church claim to be the One TRUE-Faith Church of the Bible?

[PJM]

Because the list of what we consider to be beliefs intricately tied to the faith does exist, please don’t mistake what I said in that regard… it’s just that list is a much shorter list than a devout Catholic would typically have.

That said, I can see how such a thing might be perplexing to a devout Catholic such as yourself. The RCC stands as a much more authoritative entity on a much broader range of what it considers key faith issues than many other Christian faiths. That’s just not the way our particular corner of Christendom is structured.

Thank you, I had grasped some such reality in your faith.

I SHOCKED however at the apparent caviler attitude on TRUTH.

Either something is, or it is NOT the truth on defined issues. Nothing else is possible

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[rcwitness]

I SHOCKED however at the apparent caviler attitude on TRUTH.

Either something is, or it is NOT the truth on defined issues. Nothing else is possible

I think non-Catholic Christians who do not believe the Church is able to divinely assert matters of faith and morals believe we are left to our conscience as supreme authority. And if you have different conclusions on matters, you are approved to receive a Communion from a leadership who has those same conclusions.

 

[Kliska]

What becomes of the visible, material and enduring aspect of the Church without a hierarchy of some sort?

We are the visible, material, and enduring aspect of the congregations. Each of us, not just as the image of God, as humans, but also as the temple of God as Christians. We are the body of Christ.

More importantly, how is the “faith delivered once for all unto the saints” to be protected from corruption, error, misinterpretation, et cetera so as to endure to the end of time?

As other non-RC’s have pointed out, we believe in Apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelizers, etc… but more importantly we believe in the power of God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Kliska]

I agree with your thought here in general however I am not sure that the Apostles themselves made the mistake rather that it came from those who directly survived them. Or do you have more information to substantiate that the Apostles themselves believed that Peter not Christ was the foundation for the church to built upon?

Here’s one of the things I was referring to:

Mark 9: 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 “Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.” 38 John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us.

 

[rcwitness]

Here’s one of the things I was referring to:

Mark 9: 36 Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 “Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.” 38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us.

Let’s be sure to harmonize our conclusions with all of Sacred Scripture and Tradition…

Matt. 7

Concerning Self-Deception

21*“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

 

[Kliska]

Let’s be sure to harmonize our conclusions with all of Sacred Scripture and Tradition…

Matt. 7

Concerning Self-Deception

21*“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Yes, we have to take His teaching in context of what was being done around Him and asked of Him; in this case those who say “Lord, Lord” are relying on their own good works to save themselves, and gain entry into Heave, which both you and I would agree isn’t enough.

 

[Wannano]

THANK YOU, and I get what your saying; BUT my friend how can that be unless “faith beliefs” are somehow not an intricate, and essential part of that “church”? I [ME] don’t see how that is possible?

I do get WHY Protestants do hold a different view of just one true- Church, and DO separate the faith beliefs of that group from "church: as being essential to the definition of Church

1181 A church, “a house of prayer in which the Eucharist is celebrated and reserved, where the faithful assemble, and where is worshipped the presence of the Son of God our Savior, offered for us on the sacrificial altar for the help and consolation of the faithful - this house ought to be in good taste and a worthy place for prayer and sacred ceremonial.” In this “house of God” the truth and the harmony of the signs that make it up should show Christ to be present and active in this place. Amen

This paragraph stood out to me this morning. First let me tell you that I attended Mass this past Sunday at a Ukrainian Catholic Church. The Church is beautifully adorned with painted angels on the ceiling, and the walls elaborately exude the portrayals of Christ , Mary and Saints. Numerous statues and figurines occupy space at the front. It is an attractive setting and gives one a sense of being in the presence of something mystical and majestic.

Now back to the first sentence of the post…“where is worshipped the presence of the Son of God…” Surely I am not reading this right am I? Do we worship the presence of God or do we worship God?

Secondly…“the Son of God our Savuoir, offered for us on the sacrificial altar for the help and consolation of the faithful”…what does this mean? Help and consolation? I believe Jesus was the sacrifice forthe sins of the world.

What is the last sentence saying…“should show Christ to be present” …do we not believe He is in reality?

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, we have to take His teaching in context of what was being done around Him and asked of Him; in this case those who say “Lord, Lord” are relying on their own good works to save themselves, and gain entry into Heave, which both you and I would agree isn’t enough.

Yes, that’s a good understanding. But Jesus, in Mark 9, was not telling them they didn’t have authority. He was still forming their understanding that some who are not yet in Communion and obedience may still be on their way. This was a time of early development for the Apostles. They were unable to exercise the demon from the boy. So much had to be established and bestowed on the Church. But the Kingdom was at hand, and so many were in various levels of hearing and believing.

 

[Wannano]

Peter was first ordained to the office of Christ’s steward. Jesus placed him over the whole household. Yet he is an equal because he is still only a member who is subject to the Chief Shepherd.

That of course is the premise the cc comes from. The challenge in saying he was the first pope and that Jesus called his church "the Catholic Church " is hard for me to substantiate. Maybe you can give me scripture that teach that and also verses that indicate the apostles recognized Peter as the Pope and that the churches were Catholic heiriarchal structures.

 

[benhur]

The Apostles themselves mistook an earthly-styled hierarchy and group formation for the idea of the ekklesia, to the point of trying to stop someone doing right and proper in the name of Jesus simply because the person didn’t follow them. The whole point of the ekklesia is a gathering of people with Christ as the head, and the Holy Spirit as the guide, united in love for God and love for each other. Jesus said people would hear His voice, and if they were His sheep they’d recognize His voice and follow it. How was the world to know who His disciples were? By their love for one another.

In conversations on “the church” we almost have to avoid using the English “church” and instead go back to ekklesia, or Congregation, Gathering, Meeting, etc… It doesn’t make much sense arguing which congregation is the true congregation because there are many congregations preaching and practicing the Truth, because they preach the Truth of Jesus Christ, and follow His voice. As we can see in the book of Revelation, there are various congregations in various places who have their individual issues/problems, or their individual good works depending on the congregation.

HI K,

I like it, I like it.

Indeed ecclesia , the called out ones, and called to a “meeting”. Just as the old covenants were for a light unto the Messiah and bringing Him forth, so to is the new covenant: a light unto the Messiah and a call to the formation of His Bride, the “meeting”.

That there are offices and giftings does not diminish the above primary and foundational reality.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

That of course is the premise the cc comes from. The challenge in saying he was the first pope and that Jesus called his church "the Catholic Church " is hard for me to substantiate. Maybe you can give me scripture that teach that and also verses that indicate the apostles recognized Peter as the Pope and that the churches were Catholic heiriarchal structures.

Stay tuned…

 

[Tomdstone]

Titus 3:1-3?

Yes.

 

[Padres1969]

Thank you, I had grasped some such reality in your faith.

I SHOCKED however at the apparent caviler attitude on TRUTH.

Either something is, or it is NOT the truth on defined issues. Nothing else is possible

God Bless you

Patrick

That’s a fair statement. However where it always runs into trouble is what is that truth, and what needs to be defined as having a truth? Catholics use things like the Magesterium and Canon Law to define what has a defined truth and what that truth is from a Catholic POV. But clearly others such as myself who reject the Catholic Magesterium or Code of Canon Law have different opinions on what needs a defined truth, and what those truths are on the things that are defined.

 

[benhur]

What constitutes a heretical position? Who determines this?

In the beginning it was apostolic tradition/faith/teaching and their writ that was the source for normative revelation. This is what congregations/churches/councils used as benchmarks. As you know we now have varied church structures/orthodoxies and varied councils dealing with heresy.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

In the beginning it was apostolic tradition/faith/teaching and their writ that was the source for normative revelation. This is what congregations/churches/councils used as benchmarks. As you know we now have varied church structures/orthodoxies and varied councils dealing with heresy.

Blessings

Good answer! The only thing is, it answers nothing.

 

[PJM]

I would say off the top of my head that a Christian is somebody who believes in God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. A Christian believes salvation is through Jesus Christ who was born, died and resurrected. They follow the Ten Commandments and the commandments to love God and love your neighbor from Matthew 22. I think these are the essentials that I can think of.

I don’t think it is necessary to be in agreement on everything. My disagreeing with my biological brother doesn’t mean that he is not still the son of my parents. We don’t have to agree on everything to be brother and sister.

In Acts 15:39 Paul and Barnabas have a “sharp disagreement” and part company. They are still brothers in Christ even if they don’t agree and choose to go their separate ways.

Not the best example of being OK to disagree.

You and you’re brother I assume are disagreeing about personal things.

While the CC is the HOLDER of ALL of the Key’s to heaven single gate Mt 16:18-19

The CC is alone protected by BOTH The Holy Spirit and Jesus Jn. 17:18-19 & Mt 28:19-20

The Catholic Church Alone is given directly and precisely the COMMAND "Cf. YOU GO Teach the WORLD all that I have taught to YOU

And the CC alone extends the OT Tradition of God, in every case, choosing Just One Chosen People, that Jesus calls’ "MY Church: Mt 16:18

There are biblically NO, zip, zero instances of GOD ever being OK, tolerating, approving of, or in any way accepting competing sets of Faith beliefs. WHY IS THAT?

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[benhur]

Good answer! The only thing is, it answers nothing.

Hi rc,

I beg to differ. You mean councils and the CC and OC and P churches have no way to deal with heresy ?

Blessings

 

[Darryl_B]

Lowest common denominator seems to be prevalent these days.

 

[Abu]

Wannano #87
The challenge in saying he was the first pope and that Jesus called his church "the Catholic Church " is hard for me to substantiate. Maybe you can give me scripture that teach that and also verses that indicate the apostles recognized Peter as the Pope and that the churches were Catholic heiriarchal structures.

Where do you find that “Jesus called his church ‘the Catholic Church’ ”?

1. Catholic means universal as first used by St Ignatius of Antioch who pointed out (A.D. 35-107, Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2): “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
2. The Apostles recognised St Peter as the first Pope because they obeyed Jesus when He specifically put Peter in charge and no one else:

All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)
**
Sole authority to Peter alone:**
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Later to the twelve also:
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”

1. Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

The third successor of St Peter, Pope Clement, wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1). This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

Christ’s Catholic Church teaches that other Christians are linked to the Catholic Church through baptism though not having the fullness of truth.

 

[benhur]

Not the best example of being OK to disagree.

You and you’re brother I assume are disagreeing about personal things.

While the CC is the HOLDER of ALL of the Key’s to heaven single gate Mt 16:18-19

The CC is alone protected by BOTH The Holy Spirit and Jesus Jn. 17:18-19 & Mt 28:19-20

The Catholic Church Alone is given directly and precisely the COMMAND "Cf. YOU GO Teach the WORLD all that I have taught to YOU

And the CC alone extends the OT Tradition of God, in every case, choosing Just One Chosen People, that Jesus calls’ "MY Church: Mt 16:18

There are biblically NO, zip, zero instances of GOD ever being OK, tolerating, approving of, or in any way accepting competing sets of Faith beliefs. WHY IS THAT?

God Bless you,
Patrick

Hi PJM,

As per our past dialogue on this to broad a statement. Ok / approve and tolerate are two different actions.

Did the Pharisees say they had the one true set of beliefs and the Sadducees were wrong, and vice versa ? But wait, maybe the Essenes had it or was it the Zealots ?

They existed within Judaism, therefore they were definitely tolerated by God, even Jesus.
Did Jesus referee when arriving on the scene? Somewhat, but more issue by issue. He in the end said ,“Salvation is of the Jews”. Sorry, no sectarianism on that fundamental issue, as there should not now be either. Salvation is in the Christian faith, of the Christians, and their Messiah. There is enough orthodoxy between the CC and OC and the PC making sectarianism at least tentative on salvation issue.

Blessings