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Tomdstone
Guest
The words of Consecration are in the other three gospels.
On WHAT basis does your Church claim to be the One TRUE-Faith Church of the Bible?
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guanophore
Guest
Just as we have passages about the Real Presence in Scripture, so we have passages that refer to the Trinity. The point is that the word does not appear in Scripture. Scripture was never intended to be a full compendium of the faith. It complements the Word of God that was deposited with the Church, and infallibly protected there by the Holy Spirit. It is in this Divine Revelation that we find the consecration and Real Presence.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
John’s Gospel follows an entirely different literary form from the Synoptics.
There is is no relation of the institution narrative because it does not fit into the theological exposition John has occurring at the Last Supper.
John’s treatment of the subject of the Eucharist is in the context of The Bread of Life Discourse, in the sixth chapter.
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benhur
Guest
Hi T,
You will not find this communion liturgy either in Writ nor earliest patristic writings:
Priest- “Pray my brothers and sisters that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God the Almighty Father.”
Cong.-“May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands…”
“Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as you once accepted the gift of your servant Abel and Abraham”
Blessings
S
steve_b
Guest
one references is
[Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway)
“As for a man who is factious ( [αἱρετικὸν (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm) heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
The CCC gives this as a definition of heresy
2089"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;
Key terms
the person is
- post baptism
- obstinate denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith
- obstinate doubt
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Tomdstone
Guest
this is easy to say, but in practice, not so easy to determine. For example, the questions of slavery or torture.
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steve_b
Guest
My point was on matters of faith and morals. That was the context
What is the point you’re making?
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PJM
Guest
OK, BUT you do see them in
Mt 26
MK 14
LK 22
Paul 1st. Cor 11
John’s Gospel is NOT a part of the synoptic- SAME} Gospels as Mt. Mk, Lk are
What John does is gives a fuller, a true Sacramental rendering of the same one Miracle:thumbsup:
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PJM
Guest
OK:shrug: So just HOW is this accomplished?
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PJM
Guest
It’s literal! here’s why
God IS Perfect
We are only striving to be so:thumbsup:
Thanks for asking
PJM
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PJM
Guest
HERESY
Absolutely not a metaphor,
Perhaps you can tell me how 5 different authors of the bible:
Mt 26, Mk 14, Lk, 22, John6, Paul 1st Cor 11 and Jesus Himself can be wrong
Then explain why the Early CC believed and practiced this belief {then refered to as “the breaking of the bread”
Act 2:42
And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers
AND just how Jesus, John and Paul could have been more precise in the language THEY guided by the HS choose to use?
Jn 6: 47-58
[47] Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57]** He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him**.{which IS ptrsisely what takes place in CATHOLIC Holy Communion} [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.
Paul 1st Cor 11:23-30
[23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27]** Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord**. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you,** and many sleep.** [MEANS ; HAVE CHOSEN TO CONDEMN THEMSELVES TO ETERNAL HELL]
THEN explain just WHY the Early CC had so many martyrs who freely gave their LIVES in brutal fashion.
Then GOOGLE “Eucharistic MIRACLES”
The ONLY unforgivable sin is actual denial of GOD:
Denial of the Real Presence is PRECISELY THAT SIN!
Denial of the REAL Presence is a direct ATTACK on the very Sovereignty of God! It;s is a demonstration of a VERY weak faith WHAT: GOD can’t do this?}
It is in EFFECT proclaiming that YOU!, YOU! do know more, YOU, do know better than GOD and the ONLY Church and Faith He founded.
Mt 16:18-19
John 17:17-20
Mt 28:18-20
On WHAT authority do YOU do so:shrug:
May God Guide you!
PJM
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PJM
Guest
**WRONG **[based on very human engineering]
REPLY!
So on what factual-grounds, on what authority does your “faith tradition” claim to deny what Jesus {GOD}, His CC and His Catholic Bible? Please read the post above this one, so I don’t have to repeat myself.
Just HOW can Paul claim that Verses 27-30 “ [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you**, and many sleep**.
… Claim that NOT believing is choosing Eternal Spiritual Death {HELL!}, if its JUST as “you” choose to believe; a metaphor, a sign, a symbol? Then HOW do YOU and YOUR faith beliefs explain Eucharistic Miracles? GOOGLE IT!
“Your” position Denies God, Denies God’s Sovereignty, and DENIES God ability to do ANY Good thing. This being the summit of ALL goodness; GOD /JESUS Himself! Again I urge you to READ fully and carefully the preceding POST of mine.
May God Guide you!
PJM
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PJM
Guest
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PJM
Guest
It is very good, and it does not contradict what the Apostles taught, though it does present a truncated concept of the Church.
IT’S NOT “VERY GOOD”
IT’S A MAN MADE INVENTION CAUSED BY BOTH THE ABSOLUTE NEED TO BE DIFFERENT TO JUSTIFY THEIR BELIEFS AND A GOD IMPOSED INABILITY YO UNDERSTAND. IT IS THE ULTIMATE EVIDENCE OF A LACK OF TRUE FAITH! AMEN1
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PJM
Guest
VERY GOOD! THANKS!
A LACK OF BELIEF IN THE REAL PRESENCE IS DENIAL OF GOD HIMSELF. CAN GOD NOT DO ANY GOOD THING? IS NOT THEN GOD /JESUS’ REAL PRESENCE THE GREATEST OF ALL POSSIBLE GOOD THINGS:shrug:
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PJM
Guest
SO YOU’RE A “CATHOLIC” BUT CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE WHAT THE CC TEACHES:shrug: HOW DOES THAT WORK?
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PJM
Guest
OF COURSE YOU DOI like this explanation.
It reminds me of a sermon I read from Augustine last year.
earlychurchtexts.com/public/augustine_sermon_272_eucharist.htm
“What you see on God’s altar, you’ve already observed during the night that has now ended. But you’ve heard nothing about just what it might be, or what it might mean, or what great thing it might be said to symbolize. For what you see is simply bread and a cup - this is the information your eyes report. But your faith demands far subtler insight: the bread is Christ’s body, the cup is Christ’s blood. Faith can grasp the fundamentals quickly, succinctly, yet it hungers for a fuller account of the matter. As the prophet says, “Unless you believe, you will not understand.” [Is. 7.9; Septuagint] So you can say to me, “You urged us to believe; now explain, so we can understand.” Inside each of you, thoughts like these are rising: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, we know the source of his flesh; he took it from the virgin Mary. Like any infant, he was nursed and nourished; he grew; became a youngster; suffered persecution from his own people. To the wood he was nailed; on the wood he died; from the wood, his body was taken down and buried. On the third day (as he willed) he rose; he ascended bodily into heaven whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. There he dwells even now, seated at God’s right. So how can bread be his body? And what about the cup? How can it (or what it contains) be his blood?” My friends, these realities are called sacraments because in them one thing is seen, while another is grasped. What is seen is a mere physical likeness; what is grasped bears spiritual fruit. So now, if you want to understand the body of Christ, listen to the Apostle Paul speaking to the faithful: “You are the body of Christ, member for member.” [1 Cor. 12.27] If you, therefore, are Christ’s body and members, it is your own mystery that is placed on the Lord’s table! It is your own mystery that you are receiving! You are saying “Amen” to what you are: your response is a personal signature, affirming your faith. When you hear “The body of Christ”, you reply “Amen.” Be a member of Christ’s body, then, so that your “Amen” may ring true! But what role does the bread play? We have no theory of our own to propose here; listen, instead, to what Paul says about this sacrament: “The bread is one, and we, though many, are one body.” [1 Cor. 10.17] Understand and rejoice: unity, truth, faithfulness, love. “One bread,” he says. What is this one bread? Is it not the “one body,” formed from many? Remember: bread doesn’t come from a single grain, but from many. When you received exorcism, you were “ground.” When you were baptized, you were “leavened.” When you received the fire of the Holy Spirit, you were “baked.” Be what you see; receive what you are. This is what Paul is saying about the bread. So too, what we are to understand about the cup is similar and requires little explanation. In the visible object of bread, many grains are gathered into one just as the faithful (so Scripture says) form “a single heart and mind in God” [Acts 4.32]. And thus it is with the wine. Remember, friends, how wine is made. Individual grapes hang together in a bunch, but the juice from them all is mingled to become a single brew. This is the image chosen by Christ our Lord to show how, at his own table, the mystery of our unity and peace is solemnly consecrated. All who fail to keep the bond of peace after entering this mystery receive not a sacrament that benefits them, but an indictment that condemns them. So let us give God our sincere and deepest gratitude, and, as far as human weakness will permit, let us turn to the Lord with pure hearts. With all our strength, let us seek God’s singular mercy, for then the Divine Goodness will surely hear our prayers. God’s power will drive the Evil One from our acts and thoughts; it will deepen our faith, govern our minds, grant us holy thoughts, and lead us, finally, to share the divine happiness through God’s own son Jesus Christ. Amen!”
Sermon 227 is similar: david.heitzman.net/sermons227-229a.html
IT’S HUMAN ENGINEERED TO NOT REQUIRE ANY FAITH!
HOWEVER IT DENIES GOD.; & GOD’S ABILITY TO DO ANY GOOD THING AND THE REALITY OF 2,000 YEARS OF BELIEF. PRACTICE AND FREQUENT-MARTYRDOM . IT IS CAUSED BY NOT UNDERSTANDING GOD, NOT HAVING TRUE FAITH! Amen!
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PJM
Guest
and on this WE AGREE!The context of the book of John is the Eucharistic Catholic Community. When it was written, they had celebrated Eucharist for as much as 50+ years. They understood what was written in the context of their lived faith.
And for further context, the entire New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic, which is why it is best understood from the perspective of the Catholic faith.
THANK YOU!
PJM
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PJM
Guest
VERY TRUE
Here’s WHY?
They MOST often do NOT know that it is a MORTAL SIN, because of the NEAR total LACK of catechesis on this issue. WHY this is , is a separate and not clearly defined issue.
BUT FOR A SIN TO BE A MORTAL SIN, 3 CONDITIONS MUST EXIST {and will be so judged by GOD}
Catholic Catechism:
** 1859 Mortal sin requires** full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.End Quote
It must be
- Serious Matter [if one were to ask 10 informed practicing catholics i=sush and such an act qualifies and more than half agree, then it most likely is. IF in doubt decuss it with a priest!
- This MUST be know BEFORE committing such an act
- Then with FULL knowledge, the act must be freely- DESIRED {does NOT have to occur so long as the knowledge and DESIRE to do it exist].
[16] He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: f [MORTAL SIN]or that I say not that any man ask. [17] All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death."
That is WHY Jesus [GOD!] instituted HIS WAY for sin forgiveness. If you choose to rely on man-invented so called “cures”; you have chosen to build your Spiritual house on sand!"
Matthew 7:26
And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand
So there ARE a great many Catholics who ARE under catechized, NOT taught the fullness of God’s Truth, and therefore are less culpuable
Jn 20:
esus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. [20] And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. [21] He [Jesus GOD!] said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
THIS IS THE ONLY GOD APPROVED METHOD!
Birth is Controlled by God
John.1 Verses 12 to 14: “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. “
**Gen.38: 6-10 **“And Judah took a wife for Er his first-born, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. Then Judah [the Father of both sons] said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. **And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he slew him also” ** MEANING GOD KILLED HIM BOTH PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY [condemned to ETERNAL Hell!]
God is, and God WILL judge each of us based not on our accepted beliefs, RATHER it will be on what He God has made possible for each of to know as HIS Truth. Amen!
PJM
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Your posts…by their tone, their use of all caps, the inordinate font sizes, and their use of bright red are profoundly rude and profoundly offensive.
They violate the norms for Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism and are out of compliance with the principles established by the Holy See’s dicastery, The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.
I ask that a moderator to the please review these several posts above against the rubrics of the forum’s rules.
This method of proceeding can only be seen as insulting in the extreme to forum readers
I will also add that, as someone who knew and cherished a friendship with Father John Hardon, SJ, for years, this method of proceeding does not honour him nor is it something he would be pleased by…least of all from someone who claims to be his former student.
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