On whether the trinity is illogical

[jonfawkes]

Logically, I am three things at one time – a father, an employee, and a musician, yet I am a human. It is not illogical. It would only be illogical if we said God was “three beings yet one being” or “three persons yet one person” but this is not the case – for God is one being or substance, in three persons. Being/substance =/= person. If ‘being/substance’ is equivalent to ‘person’, then we have a contradiction on our hands.

As I said before we can approach the subject but ultimately it is beyond our capacity.

Here is another analogy - nine players make up a baseball team - without all the members there is no team. The team is the players collectively. This is a concept that we can grasp. A collective that makes an enity. Where it transcends our logic, per out baseball team example is God (the team), consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (the players) but each one of the players is also the team entire and the team entire is each one if the players. Which is not something we can logically approach.

 

[ivebeenshown]

As I said before we can approach the subject but ultimately it is beyond our capacity.

Here is another analogy - nine players make up a baseball team - without all the members there is no team. The team is the players collectively. This is a concept that we can grasp. A collective that makes an enity. Where it transcends our logic, per out baseball team example is God (the team), consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (the players) but each one of the players is also the team entire and the team entire is each one if the players. Which is not something we can logically approach.

In the paragraph where the Catechism states that each person of the Trinity is God entire and whole, it further reiterates itself (twice in fact) for clarity so that there may be no confusion – each person of the Trinity is wholly God according to substance, or being, not according to personhood.

Personhood = who
Substance = what

What am I? A human. Who am I? Derek. What is my mom’s chihuahua? A dog. Who is my mom’s chihuahua? Nonsense. A dog is an animal being, and has no personhood. Being is not the same as personhood.

What is God? God, the divine being. Who is God? The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

**What **is the Father? God. What is the Son? God. What is the Spirit? God.
**Who **is the Father? The Father. Who is the Son? The Son. Who is the Spirit? The Spirit.

HOW is the one being three persons? Well, that may be above our understanding, but not defiant of logic.

 

[jonfawkes]

HOW is the one being three persons? Well, that may be above our understanding, but not defiant of logic.

It is above our understanding because it transcends logic. It is a mystery.

 

[ivebeenshown]

It is above our understanding because it transcends logic. It is a mystery.

It is mysterious because we do not know the logic of it, not because it transcends or is not in line with logic… in a murder mystery, we know someone was killed, but we may not know how, even though the ‘how’ is in line with logic.

 

[jonfawkes]

It is mysterious because we do not know the logic of it, not because it transcends or is not in line with logic… in a murder mystery, we know someone was killed, but we may not know how, even though the ‘how’ is in line with logic.

There is nothing that transcends logic how a murder is committed. We can be sure it was committed in a logical way. No killed anyone with a square circle.

There is nothing in our logic that explains how 3 can be 1 and 1, 3 simultaneously. It transcends our logic. God may have logic to explain it but that logic is not ours.

 

[zach_dunn]

I didn’t say we can know nothing about the Trinity. What I am saying is the notion transcends logic. We have something that is 3 things and one thing at the same time. Logically it could be one thing or 3 things not both, but the Trinity is both.

This quotation demonstrates your lack of understanding of the Trinity. We may not be able to completely understand the Trinity, but we can understand some things and we know that the Trinity does not go against logic. What you are essentially saying here is that the Trinity is illogical, which makes our faith a lie.

To say Jesus is wholly God indicates that His essence has the other two persons of God - because They too are wholly God.

No, it does not. Saying Jesus is God already indicates that you are referring to one Person of the Trinity, not all three. Jesus does not contain the other two Persons in His own Person. All three Persons have the one Divine Nature which is why there is one God: there is only one Divine Nature. You don’t understand the difference between Person and Nature and what differs between them.

Yet we are told that each person is separate.so we have God that is whole and separate at the same time.

sigh You are not understanding this. There is no separation in God, there is a distinction between the Persons of the Trinity which lies solely in their relation to one another. We have one God in three Persons, that is not illogical.

Which transcends logic.

See Ana v’s earlier post about how logic is intrinsic to God’s nature.

We can approach the concept but can’t understand it. The finite mind needs limitations. Up, down - left, right - whole, part. The infinite has no limitations. It transcends logic.

The only meaningful information I can gather from our discussion is that you do not understand the Trinity the way the Church does. If you don’t feel comfortable talking about the Trinity logically that’s fine, but as far as I know my posts have been perfectly in line with the teaching of the Church.

 

[jonfawkes]

This quotation demonstrates your lack of understanding of the Trinity. We may not be able to completely understand the Trinity, but we can understand some things and we know that the Trinity does not go against logic. What you are essentially saying here is that the Trinity is illogical, which makes our faith a lie.

No, it does not. Saying Jesus is God already indicates that you are referring to one Person of the Trinity, not all three. Jesus does not contain the other two Persons in His own Person. All three Persons have the one Divine Nature which is why there is one God: there is only one Divine Nature. You don’t understand the difference between Person and Nature and what differs between them.

sigh You are not understanding this. There is no separation in God, there is a distinction between the Persons of the Trinity which lies solely in their relation to one another. We have one God in three Persons, that is not illogical.

See Ana v’s earlier post about how logic is intrinsic to God’s nature.

The only meaningful information I can gather from our discussion is that you do not understand the Trinity the way the Church does. If you don’t feel comfortable talking about the Trinity logically that’s fine, but as far as I know my posts have been perfectly in line with the teaching of the Church.

From the CCC

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian”, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. **I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God**. . . **the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .**92

It transcends logic

 

[zach_dunn]

As I said before we can approach the subject but ultimately it is beyond our capacity.

Here is another analogy - nine players make up a baseball team - without all the members there is no team. The team is the players collectively. This is a concept that we can grasp. A collective that makes an enity. Where it transcends our logic, per out baseball team example is God (the team), consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (the players) but each one of the players is also the team entire and the team entire is each one if the players. Which is not something we can logically approach.

Um, you just logically approached it . . . and btw, your analogy is much closer to what I’m saying than what you’re saying. According to you, each player on the baseball team would have to have all the other players inside him, too, which is illogical.

 

[zach_dunn]

From the CCC

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called “the Theologian”, entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. **I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God**. . . **the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .**92

It transcends logic

You have proven over and over again that you do not understand what is meant by “entirely God;” you just don’t get it, and that’s fine. Just because you don’t understand what is said here does not mean that it transcends logic.

 

[jonfawkes]

You have proven over and over again that you do not understand what is meant by “entirely God;” you just don’t get it, and that’s fine. Just because you don’t understand what is said here does not mean that it transcends logic.

Is God entire - one person or all of them? Can God be divided?

He is one and He is three - it transcends logic.

 

[jonfawkes]

Are you familiar with this -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg

All these things are happening congruently. So you can read The Father is Not the Son, The Son is not The Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit is not The Father. And that is True. At the same time God is The Father, God is the Son and God is The Holy Spirit. Also True is the The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God.

You can read this image around, out to in and in to out and around but it is happening simultaneously.

Jesus is God, yet God is Jesus, The Father and the Holy Spirit, Yet Jesus is not The Father and the Holy Spirit.

God can’t be divided. He is all encompassing. He is omnipresent.

It is not logical that something is and not is at the same time,and everywhere at the same time but there you have it. It’s a mystery.

 

[zach_dunn]

Is God entire - one person or all of them?

It seems like you don’t understand that the meaning of words change depending on how they are used. God can be used in a general sense or in a particular sense: this was the problem of the OP. In the general sense, God refers to the Divine Nature and the three Persons who have that Nature. When you are referring to God through the qualifier of a certain Person (i.e., the Father, Jesus, or the Spirit), then it does not include all of the Persons, but only the one being talked about.

Can God be divided?

Nope, there are no parts in God.

He is one and He is three - it transcends logic.

Here is the thing, I don’t think we mean the same thing when you say transcend. To me and to other people, it seems like you are saying it is against logic and is in fact illogical, is that true?

Are you familiar with this

Yup, I’ve seen it many times.

All these things are happening congruently. So you can read The Father is Not the Son, The Son is not The Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit is not The Father. And that is True. At the same time God is The Father, God is the Son and God is The Holy Spirit. Also True is the The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying . . . some of things you’ve been saying, however, run contrary to this picture and the above explanation.

You can read this image around, out to in and in to out and around but it is happening simultaneously.

I never said it wasn’t.

Jesus is God, yet God is Jesus, The Father and the Holy Spirit, Yet Jesus is not The Father and the Holy Spirit.

God can’t be divided. He is all encompassing. He is omnipresent.

Yup, this is what I’ve been sayin’.

It is not logical that something is and not is at the same time,and everywhere at the same time but there you have it. It’s a mystery.

Who said God is and is not at the same time? That is definitely illogical . . .

 

[jonfawkes]

It seems like you don’t understand that the meaning of words change depending on how they are used. God can be used in a general sense or in a particular sense: this was the problem of the OP. In the general sense, God refers to the Divine Nature and the three Persons who have that Nature. When you are referring to God through the qualifier of a certain Person (i.e., the Father, Jesus, or the Spirit), then it does not include all of the Persons, but only the one being talked about.

This is our disconnect. You are dividing God. In your scenario God is one thing here but not one thing here.

We know God is unchanging. You are spitting God when you say He is “only the one being talked about” - He is always the one and He is always the three.

So while The Son is God, God is The Son, Father and Holy Spirit. It is happening at the same time. Our logic can’t explain how that is possible. You are creating divisions where there are none.

 

[FCEGM]

This is our disconnect. You are dividing God. In your scenario God is one thing here but not one thing here.

We know God is unchanging. You are spitting God when you say He is “only the one being talked about” - He is always the one and He is always the three.

So while The Son is God, God is The Son, Father and Holy Spirit. It is happening at the same time. Our logic can’t explain how that is possible. You are creating divisions where there are none.

No, Zach is making distinctions, not creating divisions.

 

[jonfawkes]

No, Zach is making distinctions, not creating divisions.

So what is the difference between Jesus, God the Son and God. Distinctions are divisions - this not that, that but not this.

 

[davidv]

So what is the difference between Jesus, God the Son and God. Distinctions are divisions - this not that, that but not this.

Not in God’s world. When you misuse words you communicate falsehoods.

 

[jonfawkes]

Not in God’s world. When you misuse words you communicate falsehoods.

Exactly my point.

 

[davidv]

Exactly my point.

Thank you for admitting that calling the the Trinity illogical was a falsehood.

 

[jonfawkes]

Thank you for admitting that calling the the Trinity illogical was a falsehood.

It transcends our logic. It’s God’s logic not our own.

 

[FCEGM]

So what is the difference between Jesus, God the Son and God. Distinctions are divisions - this not that, that but not this.

You already mentioned the distinctions here:

So you can read The Father is Not the Son, The Son is not The Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit is not The Father. And that is True. At the same time God is The Father, God is the Son and God is The Holy Spirit. Also True is the The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God.

You can read this image around, out to in and in to out and around but it is happening simultaneously.

Jesus is God, yet God is Jesus, The Father and the Holy Spirit, Yet Jesus is not The Father and the Holy Spirit.

God is not just the Father, God is not just the Son, God is not just the Son. So in speaking of the Persons we make distinctions between the Persons. And we make a distinctions between the Persons and their One Divine Nature which is wholly each Person’s. As Frank Sheed writes, "three Whos, one What.