On whether the trinity is illogical

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Some critics of Christianity think it is. Perhaps, it’s that when they hear the word “trinity”, what comes to mind is " three is one" or “one is three”.

It would indeed be contradictory for one to say 1 being = 3 beings, or 1 person = 3 persons.

However, such is not the trinity.

We say, there is one God (being) who exists as three distinct, co-eternal, persons.

Nevertheless, I was thinking of a syllogism regarding the trinity, that is problematic to me.
Would someone weigh in on this?

The syllogism has a false conclusion, derived from true premises.

Consider: **
P1: God is a trinity (consists of three persons).
P2: Jesus is God.
P3: Therefore, Jesus is a trinity.**

I say the conclusion is false, because Jesus is NOT “three persons”. He is **ONE person **with a complete divine nature, and a complete human nature.
Illogical? To unbelievers it is. Better to ask “Is it scriptural?”
To that I can reply (a) the word is nowhere in the bible, past or present. IMO it should be, if the Trinity is indeed ‘the fundamental doctrine of Christianity’ as it’s often called by its supporters.
And (b) If it’s true- Yahweh, Jesus, Holy Spirit- then how to account for the language of Rev 3:12? “He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”
Four times our Lord refers us to someone he calls “my God”. Who is this God whom Jesus worships? “God the Father”? Certainly, but note that the corresponding “God the Son” is nowhere in the bible. And Stephen, looking into Heaven at about the same period (after Jesus’ resurrection to glory), saw only two of The Three: Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. No Holy Spirit person.

Related question: Can the Word of God conquer 1700 years of man’s tradition?
 
Illogical? To unbelievers it is. Better to ask “Is it scriptural?”
To that I can reply (a) the word is nowhere in the bible, past or present. IMO it should be, if the Trinity is indeed ‘the fundamental doctrine of Christianity’ as it’s often called by its supporters.
The word “trinity” is not in Scripture, because it was coined later. The underlying concepts are there, however.
And (b) If it’s true- Yahweh, Jesus, Holy Spirit- then how to account for the language of Rev 3:12? “He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”
Four times our Lord refers us to someone he calls “my God”. Who is this God whom Jesus worships? “God the Father”? Certainly, but note that the corresponding “God the Son” is nowhere in the bible. And Stephen, looking into Heaven at about the same period (after Jesus’ resurrection to glory), saw only two of The Three: Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. No Holy Spirit person.

Related question: Can the Word of God conquer 1700 years of man’s tradition?
Well, I would hope so, though of course I would include the idea of the Trinity in with “the Word of God” rather than with “man’s tradition.”

When it comes to developed doctrines like the Trinity and the Incarnation, Scripture serves as the “raw data” from which we draw our conclusions. Scripture is clear that we worship one God, yet in different places describes the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as God, while also making them out to be distinct – the Father sends the Son, the Son returns to the Father and sends the Spirit. Likewise, Jesus is in some places portrayed as a man who worships and obeys God, and in others as God Himself.

The eventual, specifically worded definitions of the Trinity and the Incarnation (which were embarked upon as soon as Christian leaders could freely gather in large numbers to discuss the issue) are attempts at explanations that fit all the data of Scripture, without privileging one datum over another even when they would seem to contradict. Thus we get formulations like “One God in three persons” and “fully God and fully man.”

Usagi
 
Illogical? To unbelievers it is. Better to ask “Is it scriptural?”
To that I can reply (a) the word is nowhere in the bible, past or present. IMO it should be, if the Trinity is indeed ‘the fundamental doctrine of Christianity’ as it’s often called by its supporters.
And (b) If it’s true- Yahweh, Jesus, Holy Spirit- then how to account for the language of Rev 3:12? “He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”
Four times our Lord refers us to someone he calls “my God”. Who is this God whom Jesus worships? “God the Father”? Certainly, but note that the corresponding “God the Son” is nowhere in the bible. And Stephen, looking into Heaven at about the same period (after Jesus’ resurrection to glory), saw only two of The Three: Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father. No Holy Spirit person.

Related question: Can the Word of God conquer 1700 years of man’s tradition?
Ah, a Bible Student.

First things first: Welcome to Catholic Answers, we’re here to help answer any questions you might have.

Please go ahead an read the forum rules if you haven’t. I say this because this post is derailing the thread, it’s not on topic. If you wish to discuss whether or not it is scriptural, go ahead and start a new thread!

Welcome again!
 
First of all it is not necessary for things about God to be logical. God transcends the mind and the human mind cannot comprehend God, God is Mystery. I think that theologians came up with the Idea of God being a Trinity (It is not in the Bible) in order to reconcile three truths. The first is that both the Old Testament and The New Testament is clear that there is only one God. How then do we reconcile the fact that Jesus performed such miracles and The Holy Spirit seems to do only things that God could do. I believe that the concept of the Trinity is a good faith attempt to do this.

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am a practicing Catholic and love our Church. I also know that the Catholic Church is supported by 3 pillars" Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium", yet I was taught that the 2nd 2 can augment scripture but cannot oppose scripture so in that sense that Scripture is supreme.

Also supporting the idea of the Trinity is the fact that Jesus said that people should be baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. As to the idea that that Jesus is the only God, where did that come from? I do not see that in either the Bible or in official Catholic teachings. Jesus Himself said that, “The Father is greater than I.”
 
In my post, I wrote that "In my opinion, a religion that has no mystery cannot be a revealed religion".
Allow me to modify my statement by saying that in my opinion a revealed religion is expected to include some Mysteries in its belief system.
I agree with you. Since the human mind is finite and God is infinite, how can the human mind comprehend everything about God? In the beginning of the Mass the Priest says, “As we gather together to celebrate these Sacred Mysteries.” God is a Mystery and the Trinity is a mystery. When we try to bring God down to our level (logic) we are diminishing God in our sight.

What is revealed by God (Primarily in the Bible) cannot be argued away or improved upon by the finite processes of the human mind. Although our mind can help us to understand what God revealed in the Bible.

One of the problems with logic is that you need to start the process with fact. A person who says that if A = C and B=C then A=B is incorrect if in fact A does not =C. If a person starts with scripture and uses scripture throughout the process of logic, that is the best we can do. If we don’t use scripture then we can’t be sure that something is true and the entire logic process might as well be thrown out the window. Thank you for posting your important point.
 
I’m with the Orthodox on this one. When it comes to the innermost being of God’s essence, we are in the dark. He revealed Himself as Three and One, so we must work with that. God is inherently alogical on this front, without any recourse to our arrogant syllogisms. I tried to do it, but I just can’t bring myself to pridefully define God like that anymore. Aquinas went too far with his endless distinctions, though I applaud his resolve. 😃
 
Nature points to the logic of the Trinity by so-called Siamese Twins. Two people in one body. There may be Siamese Triplets. Such is the Trinity: three persons in one Godhead.

What is normally considered a human tragedy has the silver lining of showing the possibility and truth of the Trinity.

No need to rely completely on “Mystery” or convoluted arguments. We have living examples.
 
I’m with the Orthodox on this one. When it comes to the innermost being of God’s essence, we are in the dark. He revealed Himself as Three and One, so we must work with that. God is inherently alogical on this front, without any recourse to our arrogant syllogisms. I tried to do it, but I just can’t bring myself to pridefully define God like that anymore. Aquinas went too far with his endless distinctions, though I applaud his resolve. 😃
I wholly disagree. How is it arrogant and prideful to use our God-given abilities to do His will? Namely to know and love Him. If we didn’t use this power that God has given us to use . . . there would be many, many heresies floating around about the Trinity. We use this power to protect God’s truth and spread it to the world. The Church accepts all of the distinctions made in St. Thomas’ Summa and so do I.

Your assertion that by talking about God logically we are somehow ‘defining’ Him is off, I believe. If the Church hadn’t done this for its entire life, Christianity would be in exponentially more chaos than it is now.
 
The word “trinity” is not in Scripture, because it was coined later. The underlying concepts are there, however.
As I noted and as you agree, the word is man’s, not God’s. All your other statements are fully answered by this lack and 2 Tim 3:16,17. By common church and Church teaching, the Trinity is God.
I expect- no, I demand- that he/they/she/it identify themselves more certainly in the Bible. If he expects me to take him seriously. Yahweh does so, at least in some bibles. Please look up Isa 42:8, Ex 20:2,3 in the Jerusalem bible, the American Standard Version (1901), the New World Translation [if your priest will permit you to do so]. Then when you pray the Our Father, you can thank those honest and diligent translators for helping you to know which name to “hallow”. 🙂
I might also note that the KJV version’s statement at 1 John 5:7,8- the only place in scripture where the three “persons” are identified as equals- was shown to be an insertion by translators. (Gibbon called it a “fraud” and we’re told Newton gave rigorous proof and even identified the perpetrators.) For us moderns, the best proof of fraudulence is the omission of the passage from modern Trinitarian bibles, except occasionally in a footnote only, for historical purposes.
 
Ah, a Bible Student.
First things first: Welcome to Catholic Answers, we’re here to help answer any questions you might have.
Please go ahead an read the forum rules if you haven’t. I say this because this post is derailing the thread, it’s not on topic. If you wish to discuss whether or not it is scriptural, go ahead and start a new thread!
Welcome again!
Thanks for your courteous correction. Sorry; I hereby affirm, swear and attest, on my hope of life, that the trinity is illogical.
I hope I’ll be permitted to add that I sometimes note to trinitarians that the doctrine is one that can’t count to three without getting itself in trouble. 🙂
You seem qualified on the topic; perhaps you can tell me where I can find the phrase “God the son” in scripture.
 
The problem is equivocation on the word “God”. …
Here’s a good syllogism to try on your Protestant acquaintances:
  1. Mary is the mother of Jesus.
  2. Jesus is God.
    Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
RC teaches just that, as you know. Problem is, the conclusion is inescapable IF the premises are true, and all Trinitarians must believe they are, in some form. Therefore, why don’t Protestants have the proper attitude toward Mary??? 🙂
Drives 'em crazy. 🙂

And, so there are no misunderstandings, I myself believe in premise 1, but not at all in premise 2.
 
Sweet friends,

I was taught that God came down from Heaven and was made man. Thus, Jesus. Which to mean, Jesus is God. He gave His Holy Spirit, which is God too. Yet, I can see how the Trinity is confusing. And I was taught that there would be things we cannot explain nor comprehend. So accept what we can’t understand. So, in my ignorance I think they were talking about me.

Love ya’ll,
Sheila
 
For me, the idea of God being called a trinity is one the religious fictions invented by theologians some three centuries after the original apostles. There existed no such doctrine during the first century church nor any such inference from the Old or New Testament. Christ Himself never prayed to the Holy Spirit or imply anything close to that nor did His disciples.

I am not aware of any Bible text that explicitly refers to the Holy Spirit in particular as God or one of the God beings. So, the idea of God being a trinity is to me absurd and an absolute fiction.
 
Here’s a good syllogism to try on your Protestant acquaintances:
  1. Mary is the mother of Jesus.
  2. Jesus is God.
    Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
RC teaches just that, as you know. Problem is, the conclusion is inescapable IF the premises are true, and all Trinitarians must believe they are, in some form. Therefore, why don’t Protestants have the proper attitude toward Mary??? 🙂
Drives 'em crazy. 🙂

And, so there are no misunderstandings, I myself believe in premise 1, but not at all in premise 2.
Jesus said, “The Father and I are one.” He was speaking to Philip. (John 10:30)
 
The word “trinity” is not in Scripture, because it was coined later. The underlying concepts are there, however.
When it comes to developed doctrines like the Trinity and the Incarnation, Scripture serves as the “raw data” from which we draw our conclusions. Scripture is clear that we worship one God, yet in different places describes the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as God, while also making them out to be distinct – the Father sends the Son, the Son returns to the Father and sends the Spirit. Likewise, Jesus is in some places portrayed as a man who worships and obeys God, and in others as God Himself.
The eventual, specifically worded definitions of the Trinity and the Incarnation (which were embarked upon as soon as Christian leaders could freely gather in large numbers to discuss the issue) are attempts at explanations that fit all the data of Scripture, without privileging one datum over another even when they would seem to contradict. Thus we get formulations like “One God in three persons” and “fully God and fully man.”
Usagi
Scripture serves as the “raw data”
Scripture itself says it “is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” NIV, a Trinitarian Bible

the Father sends the Son, the Son returns to the Father and sends the Spirit. Likewise, Jesus is in some places portrayed as a man who worships and obeys God, and in others as God Himself.
Yet the creeds say all are equally omniscient, co-eternal, etc. etc. Not as you describe.

are attempts at explanations that fit all the data of Scripture
An “explanation” that fits all the data, including the scriptures I cited, is: Yahweh is the ever-existent Father, Jesus is his “firstborn” son, the holy spirit is Yahweh’s active force (Gen 1:1).

Rom 8:29; Col 1:15,18; Heb 1:6; Rev 1:5; and of course Rev 3:12 and 14:14.

For comparison with other replies, consider John 1:14.
“And the Word [the *Word, not God] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
A small part of John’s Gospel (1:1c) is often cited as proof of the Trinity. It is no such thing- it indicates that Jesus is capital-G God; no holy spirit. And the previous part of the same verse- “and the Word was with God”- denies the Trinity. In fact, John’s use of prepositions throughout his Gospel link Yahweh and Jesus as separate individuals.

Many millions earthwide deny the Trinity as unscriptural and yet are able to come to an accurate knowledge of God (John 17:3). So it’s clear that scripture can overcome 1700 years of man’s traditions as formulated by the mainstream religions.

Perhaps you are qualified to answer a question I asked in another place, without response so far. Where in scripture is found the phrase “God the Son”?
 
Jesus said, “The Father and I are one.” He was speaking to Philip. (John 10:30)
… unless he meant ‘the Father and I are one in our teaching.’ This statement is supported by several other statements of his, and is not contradicted or diluted by John 17:3, 11,21.
 
Scripture serves as the “raw data”
Scripture itself says it “is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” NIV, a Trinitarian Bible
I am not denying that. By “raw data” I mean that Scripture is a collection of primary source material. Very little of it is organized to teach theology. There are different statements and claims all over the place, and some of them seem contradictory until someone works out an explanation of how they all fit together.
the Father sends the Son, the Son returns to the Father and sends the Spirit. Likewise, Jesus is in some places portrayed as a man who worships and obeys God, and in others as God Himself.
Yet the creeds say all are equally omniscient, co-eternal, etc. etc. Not as you describe.
They are all equally omniscient, co-eternal, etc. etc. I do not see where I said differently.
are attempts at explanations that fit all the data of Scripture
An “explanation” that fits all the data, including the scriptures I cited, is: Yahweh is the ever-existent Father, Jesus is his “firstborn” son, the holy spirit is Yahweh’s active force (Gen 1:1).
Rom 8:29; Col 1:15,18; Heb 1:6; Rev 1:5; and of course Rev 3:12 and 14:14.
Your explanation leaves out the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. He is a He, not an it. It is possible to blaspheme Him (Jesus’ famous passage about the unforgivable sin) and to lie to Him (Ananias and Saphira) – the latter of which is equated with lying to God.

Trinitarians would tentatively agree with Jesus as “firstborn Son,” but what we mean and what you mean by that are probably very different things.
For comparison with other replies, consider John 1:14.
"And the Word [the *Word
, not God] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
A small part of John’s Gospel (1:1c) is often cited as proof of the Trinity. It is no such thing- it indicates that Jesus is capital-G God; no holy spirit. And the previous part of the same verse- “and the Word was with God”- denies the Trinity. In fact, John’s use of prepositions throughout his Gospel link Yahweh and Jesus as separate individuals.

What do you think that Scripture means when it calls Jesus “capital-G God”? Is He a separate God from the Father? Is God not one (and in more than the sense of being a group that all agree in teaching)? Are we not monotheists?
Many millions earthwide deny the Trinity as unscriptural and yet are able to come to an accurate knowledge of God (John 17:3). So it’s clear that scripture can overcome 1700 years of man’s traditions as formulated by the mainstream religions.
If they deny the Trinity, I would say they have not yet come to an accurate knowledge of God, though they may well worship and strive to follow Him in partial ignorance.
Perhaps you are qualified to answer a question I asked in another place, without response so far. Where in scripture is found the phrase “God the Son”?
As you undoubtedly know, the phrase is not found in Scripture. Testimony that Jesus is both God and man, and the Son of God the Father, are found there, though, leading to the eventual coining of that phrase.

Trinitarianism does not stand or fall on the shorthand phrase “God the Son.” Protestants use it rather less often than Catholics, at least in my experience. The important affirmation is that the Son is God.

Usagi
 
… unless he meant ‘the Father and I are one in our teaching.’ This statement is supported by several other statements of his, and is not contradicted or diluted by John 17:3, 11,21.
He also said, “Who sees Me sees the Father.”
 
He also said, “Who sees Me sees the Father.”
Yet-- “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].” John 1:18

But there’s no contradiction if we understand that Jesus perfectly reflects his father in every important way except visually. Cf. Lu 22:42, among others.

There are about two dozen scriptures offered as “proof” of the Trinity; only one stands up to serious scrutiny. (Your two, for example, say nothing about the Holy Spirit.) Two is the maximum I respond to.

It’s clear your leaders have trained you to talk about the Trinity, a word not found at all in scripture. My Leader has trained me to talk about his Father’s kingdom (Mt 6:9) What do you think about having that kingdom established “on earth, as it is in heaven”? Isn’t that a pleasant prospect?
You can plead “off-topic” if you wish. 🙂
 
I am not denying that. By “raw data” I mean that Scripture is a collection of primary source material. Very little of it is organized to teach theology. There are different statements and claims all over the place, and some of them seem contradictory until someone works out an explanation of how they all fit together.
The entire Bible is ‘organized to teach about God and his purposes’; = “theology”. (The study of God; 2 Tim 3:16) In most cases the Bible explains itself, as I have found from personal study.
They are all equally omniscient, co-eternal, etc. etc. I do not see where I said differently.
Not referring to your sayings, but God’s word:
“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Mr 13:32 Not omniscient.

"So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee”. So St Paul teaches upon Ps 2:7; also Acts 13:33 and Heb 1:5. As in John’s Gospel, ‘the devil is in the details’- of all those prepositional phrases. 🙂 Not co-eternal.

“Then I [John] looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat upon the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.” Rev 14:14-16 Jesus, waiting outside God’s heavenly temple, obeys the command of a mere messenger [Gk angel] from Jehovah. Not co-powerful.

“He who conquers, I [Jesus] will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.”
When I ask at this point, ‘Who is that God whom Jesus has?’ I’m usually told, ‘Oh, that’s God the Father; Jesus is God the Son.’ But you’re Catholic, of course; you won’t claim that. 🙂 Therefore, your answer is ______________ ?
Your explanation leaves out the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. He is a He, not an it. It is possible to blaspheme Him (Jesus’ famous passage about the unforgivable sin) and to lie to Him (Ananias and Saphira) – the latter of which is equated with lying to God.
… which is equated with lying to Peter (and the apostles!). Acts 5:2,3 Therefore, by your reasoning, Peter is the Holy Spirit, and God … And the Gk word for Spirit is sometimes masculine and sometimes neuter, as your teachers should have told you. (English is not gendered.)
Trinitarians would tentatively agree with Jesus as “firstborn Son,” but what we mean and what you mean by that are probably very different things.
I mean what God’s word says. I go to blueletterbible.org and search on “firstborn son” and find many ordinary humans in that position. No mystery.
What do you think that Scripture means when it calls Jesus “capital-G God”?
On any search engine, enter “define: uncial” and read. Any upper/lower case is at the option of a later translator or copyist.
Is He a separate God from the Father? Is God not one (and in more than the sense of being a group that all agree in teaching)? Are we not monotheists?
As I have said often, “A trinitarian is someone who can’t count to three without getting himself in trouble.” 🙂

“… thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”
What do you think of that? Is that prayer ever to be answered? What sort of earth would we have if it were answered? Would you likie to be a subject in such a kingdom?
 
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