Once a Catholic...always a Catholic?

[Priscilla_Ann]

The Lord your God gave you a Church so that you might know all that He has revealed for you.

“Hold fast to all that you have been taught, either by word or by letter”

“I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.”

“The Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth”

“On this rock I build my Church”

“There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”

“Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

“I will send my paraclete that you will remember all that I have taught”

Pricilla Ann,

Are you considering leaving the Church? I haven’t been around the forums in a long time, so I apologize for not knowing your story.

What happened?

CARose

Actually, I left 10 years ago. I did notify my parish and diocese offices. I have formally joined another faith. I continue to take an interest in Catholic issues, because my parents and sister are still Catholics.

I left the Catholic Church because I simply could not (and still cannot) reconcile what Scripture teaches with what the Catholic Church teaches…too many manmade rules and traditions. (There is not enough time or room here to list all of the issues.)

PA

 

[CARose]

Pricilla Ann,

I’m sorry to learn that you have left the faith and I will pray that you continue to seek to know all that is Christ and that you will maintain a willingness of heart to follow Him where ever you are led, even if you some day find that you are being led back to the Catholic Church.

I came back to explore just what did the Catholic Church really teach and why, with, I might add, a HUGE chip on my shoulder, but a prayer to the Holy Spirit to guide me in my search for truth.

I have spent a lot of time and effort studying the teachings of the Church and scripture (I’m in the process of reading the bible from cover to cover along with the CCC) and I try to spend a good bit of time in prayer each day.

I accept that my previous lack of a relationship with Christ was my fault, not the fault of the Church. He was always there for me, the Church always made Him available for me, I simply chose not to accept Him into my life. For accepting Him required that I not do things I wanted to do, and that didn’t sound like a whole lot of fun at the time.

I now realize that had I skipped on several things I wanted and had instead done things according to His will (and the teachings of the Church), I would have been better off.

But God draws all things straight through crooked lines. Even my errors are coming to be used for His greater glory. Go figure.

Take Care and continue exploring your interests in things Catholic. Who knows, you may come to understand what has drawn your family to remain devout all these years.

God Bless,

CARose

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Pricilla Ann,

I’m sorry to learn that you have left the faith and I will pray that you continue to seek to know all that is Christ and that you will maintain a willingness of heart to follow Him where ever you are led, even if you some day find that you are being led back to the Catholic Church.

I came back to explore just what did the Catholic Church really teach and why, with, I might add, a HUGE chip on my shoulder, but a prayer to the Holy Spirit to guide me in my search for truth.

I have spent a lot of time and effort studying the teachings of the Church and scripture (I’m in the process of reading the bible from cover to cover along with the CCC) and I try to spend a good bit of time in prayer each day.

I accept that my previous lack of a relationship with Christ was my fault, not the fault of the Church. He was always there for me, the Church always made Him available for me, I simply chose not to accept Him into my life. For accepting Him required that I not do things I wanted to do, and that didn’t sound like a whole lot of fun at the time.

I now realize that had I skipped on several things I wanted and had instead done things according to His will (and the teachings of the Church), I would have been better off.

But God draws all things straight through crooked lines. Even my errors are coming to be used for His greater glory. Go figure.

Take Care and continue exploring your interests in things Catholic. Who knows, you may come to understand what has drawn your family to remain devout all these years.

God Bless,

CARose

You are a very gracious and kind person. You are honest in your posts, without condemning those who believe differently.

My husband’s very devout evangelical family gave me a hunger to study the Bible. (Ironically, my husband had joined the Catholic Church when we married.) His parents and sisters had a relationship with Jesus Christ that went far beyond religious practices. I desperately wanted to experience the kind of relationship they had with Jesus Christ. I prayed and searched the scriptures for truth. The rest was the work of the Holy Spirit.

God Bless You!

PA

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Actually, I left 10 years ago. I did notify my parish and diocese offices. I have formally joined another faith. I continue to take an interest in Catholic issues, because my parents and sister are still Catholics.

I left the Catholic Church because I simply could not (and still cannot) reconcile what Scripture teaches with what the Catholic Church teaches…too many manmade rules and traditions. (There is not enough time or room here to list all of the issues.)

PA

Post one single Catholic teaching that conflicts with the Scriptures and show how it is in conflict.

 

[Auriel]

Well, this is a strange post for me. I was christened in the church as an infant. The thought never ever occured to me that I could be viewed by some as a lasped catholic. But of course I was never raised in it. Hummmm…

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Post one single Catholic teaching that conflicts with the Scriptures and show how it is in conflict.

For example, praying to Mary and the saints (or asking them to intercede). I know that some Catholics say that this is no different than asking a friend to pray for us; but when I ask a friend to pray for me, I do not pray to them. Also, I do not find any examples in scripture of anyone praying to someone other than God.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 says: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given its proper time.” (I don’t see how scripture could be any clearer.)

(I’m not sure this should be posted on this thread, as I don’t want to cause "thread drift.) Feel free to move it if necessary.
.

 

[Mannyfit75]

For example, praying to Mary and the saints (or asking them to intercede). I know that some Catholics say that this is no different than asking a friend to pray for us; but when I ask a friend to pray for me, I do not pray to them. Also, I do not find any examples in scripture of anyone praying to someone other than God.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 says: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given its proper time.” (I don’t see how scripture could be any clearer.)

(I’m not sure this should be posted on this thread, as I don’t want to cause "thread drift.) Feel free to move it if necessary.
.

Ann,

It is clear. I also like to ask you several questions. Do you believe all Christians are members of the Body of Christ?

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

It is clear. I also like to ask you several questions. Do you believe all Christians are members of the Body of Christ?

Yes, but I don’t pray to them. Jesus is the only mediator.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Here it is:

---

Vatican City, 13 March 2006
Prot. N. 10279/2006
Your Excellency:
For quite some time, a considerable number of Bishops, Judicial Vicars and others working in the field of canon law have been posing to this Pontifical Council questions and requests for clarification concerning the so-called *actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica *mentioned in canons 1086, § 1, 1117 and 1124 of the Code of Canon Law. The concept therein presented is new to canonical legislation and is distinct from the other – rather “virtual” (that is, deduced from behaviors) – forms of “notoriously” or “publicly” abandoning the faith (cfr. can. 171, § 1, 4°; 194, § 1, 2°; 316, § 1; 694, § 1, 1°; 1071, § 1, 4° and § 2). In the latter circumstances, those who have been baptized or received into the Catholic Church continue to be bound by merely ecclesiastical laws (cfr. can. 11).
The issue was carefully examined by the competent Dicasteries of the Holy See in order to identify, first of all, the theological and doctrinal components of an actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica and then in turn the requirements or juridical formalities that would be necessary so that such an action would constitute a true “formal act” of defection.
After having received the decision of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith concerning the theological and doctrinal elements, and after subsequently examining the entire matter in Plenary Session, this Pontifical Council communicates the following to the Presidents of Episcopal Conferences:

1. For the abandonment of the Catholic Church to be validly configured as a true *actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia *so that the exceptions foreseen in the previously mentioned canons would apply, it is necessary that there concretely be:
   a) the internal decision to leave the Catholic Church;
   b) the realization and external manifestation of that decision; and
   c) the reception of that decision by the competent ecclesiastical authority.
2. The substance of the act of the will must be the rupture of those bonds of communion – faith, sacraments, and pastoral governance – that permit the Faithful to receive the life of grace within the Church. This means that the formal act of defection must have more than a juridical-administrative character (the removal of one’s name from a Church membership registry maintained by the government in order to produce certain civil consequences), but be configured as a true separation from the constitutive elements of the life of the Church: it supposes, therefore, an act of apostasy, heresy or schism.
3. The juridical-administrative act of abandoning the Church does not per se constitute a formal act of defection as understood in the Code, given that there could still be the will to remain in the communion of the faith.
   On the other hand, heresy (whether formal or material), schism and apostasy do not in themselves constitute a formal act of defection if they are not externally concretized and manifested to the ecclesiastical authority in the required manner.
4. The defection must be a valid juridical act, placed by a person who is canonically capable and in conformity with the canonical norms that regulate such matters (cfr. cann.124-126). Such an act must be taken personally, consciously and freely.
5. It is required, moreover, that the act be manifested by the interested party in written form, before the competent authority of the Catholic Church: the Ordinary or proper pastor, who is uniquely qualified to make the judgment concerning the existence or non-existence of the act of the will as described above in n. 2.
   Consequently, only the convergence of the two elements – the theological content of the interior act and its manifestation in the manner defined above – constitutes the actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica, with the corresponding canonical penalties (cfr. can. 1364, § 1).
6. In such cases, the competent ecclesiastical authority mentioned above is to provide that this act be noted in the baptismal registry (cfr. can. 535, § 2) with explicit mention of the occurrence of a “defectio ab Ecclesia catholica actu formali”.

Continued

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

1. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
   With the certainty that the Bishops of your Conference, conscious of the salvific dimension of ecclesiastical communion, will well understand the pastoral motivations underlying these norms, I welcome this opportunity to renew my sentiments of fraternal esteem.
   Faithfully yours in the Lord,
   Julián Card. Herranz
   President
   Bruno Bertagna
   Secretary
   This notification was approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, who directed that it be transmitted to all Presidents of Episcopal Conferences.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes, but I don’t pray to them. Jesus is the only mediator.

Yes. We are indeed a body of believers. We are one. To understand the intercession of Mary, one must understand the Communion of Saints.

What is the Communion of Saints?

The communion of saints is union of all believers, Church Ttriumphant (those Christians in heaven who have triumphed over evil and the enemies of Christ), Church Militant (those Christians on earth who are engaged in a continuous war against evil and the enemies of Christ), and Church Suffering (those saints in purgatory).

In this Communion of Saints, we are united in Christ. When one of us suffer, the members of the Body also suffer. The saints in heaven are not spiritually dead. They are alive in Christ.

Let’s look at the Scripture.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
((continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

Praying for one another is fruitful. Praying to the saints themselves with the absent of God is wrong. It is through Christ, that they can intercede. Much like I ask you to pray for me. In a way, you mediate for me to God for my behalf.

I could easily say to you. Pray to God alone. Fine then. I will not ask you to pray for me. We don’t believe God is the God of the dead. He is the God of the living.

Jesus called God our Father, and so we become a member of his family. Like a family, we held and strengthen one another.

The prayer to the saints is never without God. It is through God that they can intercede.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Yes. We are indeed a body of believers. We are one. To understand the intercession of Mary, one must understand the Communion of Saints.

What is the Communion of Saints?

The communion of saints is union of all believers, Church Ttriumphant (those Christians in heaven who have triumphed over evil and the enemies of Christ), Church Militant (those Christians on earth who are engaged in a continuous war against evil and the enemies of Christ), and Church Suffering (those saints in purgatory).

In this Communion of Saints, we are united in Christ. When one of us suffer, the members of the Body also suffer. The saints in heaven are not spiritually dead. They are alive in Christ.

Let’s look at the Scripture.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
((continue))

This still does not indicate that we are to pray to anyone other than the Lord. I will pray to the Lord alone. Jesus is my mediator.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This still does not indicate that we are to pray to anyone other than the Lord. I will pray to the Lord alone. Jesus is my mediator.

The prayers to the saints is never without Jesus Christ. They would be fruitless. I’ve been Catholic all my life, and none of these prayers exclude Jesus’ name. Many times he is referred as the "Incarnate Word and other title, we give Jesus to.

The unity between Christians with those saints in heaven is fruitful. John Martignoni states the following;

1 Tim 2:5 reads as follows: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…” “You see,” we Catholics are told, “there is only one mediator between God and men, Jesus Christ. Therefore, praying to the saints goes against the Bible because you are making them mediators between God and man, you are diminishing Jesus’ role as the sole mediator!”

Is that an appropriate interpretation of that passage? No, it’s not and let’s see why not.

In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others… that’s mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us… that’s mediating between God and man. So, I think, once again, we have a situation where a passage of the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood.

There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation.

Also, Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11); but, Scripture tells us that there is more than one foundation (Eph 2:19-20). Scripture tells us that we have only Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4-5); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord (Rev 19:16). Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ (James 4:12); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge (1 Cor 6:2).

Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus’ Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus’ role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well. Another example, as a father I share in God’s role as Father, by His grace. And, so also, we, and the saints in Heaven, and the angels in Heaven, can share in Christ’s role as Mediator.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

The prayers to the saints is never without Jesus Christ. They would be fruitless. I’ve been Catholic all my life, and none of these prayers exclude Jesus’ name. Many times he is referred as the "Incarnate Word and other title, we give Jesus to.

The unity between Christians with those saints in heaven is fruitful. John Martignoni states the following;

That is fine. But Jesus is the mediator I will pray to. Those saints in heaven are free to join in; I still see nothing in scripture indicating that I should pray to them.

 

[water]

That is fine. But Jesus is the mediator I will pray to. Those saints in heaven are free to join in; I still see nothing in scripture indicating that I should pray to them.

There is nothing wrong with praying to God alone!
However, those who know and believe that God allows saints to pray for others don’t want to exclude the saints out as their praying pal.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

There is nothing wrong with praying to God alone!
However, those who know and believe that God allows saints to pray for others don’t want to exclude the saints out as their praying pal.

So, can I pray to my dead grandmother?

 

[water]

So, can I pray to my dead grandmother?

Do you believe she is in Heaven now?

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

You believe she is in Heaven right? if you do, then you know what to do.

So basically I can pray to anyone I want, as long as I think they are in heaven? I don’t see that in scripture either.

Did Jesus or the apostles ever pray to anyone other than God?

 

[water]

So basically I can pray to anyone I want, as long as I think they are in heaven? I don’t see that in scripture either.

Did Jesus or the apostles ever pray to anyone other than God?

Few notes:

• I am not sure what you believe regarding Salvation, but as I know most non-Catholics believe that once you believe in God, you will be saved - meaning that you will be in Heaven when you die.

So, if you are to believe in that, then you would have no problem knowing your grandma is in Heaven.

On the other hand, if you don’t know if your grandma is in Heaven. Then, I give you the following scenario:

Let me ask you this. When you run out of money and you need some help, would you run out on the street asking strange people to let you borrow some? the worst, would you like to ask a poor man on the street for money. Or would you prefer to run to someone whom you know they will be able to help? - your parents, your uncle, etc…

Same thing with praying and asking the Saints. I know for sure Virgin Mary is Heaven. I know for sure the disciples are in Heaven. Thus, I ask them to pray for me.

Now, about praying to the saints for intercession. There are many answers to this, but let me use your own “Sola Scriptura” idea to answer you:

In Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”