once saved always saved confusion

[jim1130]

RCCDefender:

Hey Allison! I work with a Baptist preacher. We discuss many of these issues.

He believes in OSAS - unless you backslide. If you backslide into sin then you weren’t really saved to begin with. He has been baptised twice, when he was fourteen and then again at twenty-one. He said after his first baptism he didn’t change, but after the second he felt the Holy Spirit come into him, and now he’s a changed man. He was “saved” before each baptism by a profession of faith. He says that baptism is not neccesary to get to heaven.

He also said that if you are saved/baptised in a Baptist church and you backslide, then they will erase your name off their books, like you had never been baptised at all.

So, how do you really know if you have been saved? You “felt” the Holy Spirit? I just do not get this religious view. IN my humble opinion, the views of God and Jesus have been watered down too much. What about consequences? As a Catholic, I have a moral assurance of salvation, but not guarantee.

 

[edward_george]

Here’s a really good example of why OSAS doesn’t work in practice.

The contention of many OSASers is that if you turn your back on Christ then you were really never saved to begin with, even if you sincerely believed that you were. Consequently, even though they will never admit it, they can’t REALLY know if their salvation “took” until they die and they find themselves in heaven, which sounds a whole lot like Catholic teaching if you ask me (which I know no one really was ).

I’ve actually talked to people that, when asked point blank if they believe in OSAS, deny it, but then expound on their position by stating that once salvation is attained that it is manifested by good works–they’re not necessary for salvation, but a result of it in their view–and that if you start doing bad things that’s a sign that your salvation “didn’t stick” or never really happened. To me, this seems to be a dangerous way of looking at sin. It suggests that everyone that doesn’t behave in perfect imitation of Christ (which we can strive for, but in our fallen nature can never attain) is damned.

Correct me if my view of this is wrong, but I seem to encounter it a lot in rural Virginia…

-ACEGC

 

[flameburns623]

deb1:

This past week I had to visit my sister-in-law under trying circumstances. Her husband had died suddenly from a massive heartattack. Due to his abuse, she had been seperated from him for two years, but it was still a very sad occaion.

While staying with her, I engaged my sister-in-law in conversation about religion. Even though I used to be a fundamentalists, I don’t remmber having the same confusion about OSAS that she and her church have. LEt me give you an example:

There is a 16 year old girl that attends her church. The girl is from an incrediably troubled home, with drugs and alcohol and abuse. Social services has been called but thus far nothing has been done(this is in rural Alabama).

My sister-in-law expressed concerns that the girl’s salvation “took” this time. Confused, I asked what she meant. My sister-in-law said that the church had been working with the girl to get her to become a Christian. Three times they have convinced her to accept Jesus and three times they have baptised her. Each time they looked for signs that her behavior was changing to prove that they holy spirit was actually working in her life. She was suicidal and sexually active so they concluded that she was only looking for attention. So, they worked on her harder to get saved. This time, according to my sister-in-law, the girl is calmer and getting better grades. She is still sexually active but this is overlooked because she has assured my sister-in-law that she is using condomns.

It would make better sense for this church to provide heavy duty guidance for the girl. She is obviously searching for help or else she wouldn’t take the time to continue attending this church.(her parents don’t go)

It seems like the whole push in my sister-in-laws church is on this girl’s salvation and the hope that once she is saved the Holy Spirit by itself will change her life. No one cares that she is openly sexually active with one of the assistant pastor’s sons. Or that maybe she needs more help with the safety issues at home. Her stepfather abuses her and her mother.

Am I wrong in thinking that there is something odd about this church’s approach? How does a Catholic Church handle children from troubled homes with little guidance?

The whole approach of this church seems unbalanced. Very few churches baptise in order to change behavior. Very very few will re-baptise, and apart from the ‘Restorationist’ churches, no Evangelical Protestant church that I am aware of baptises someone to get them ‘saved’. Baptism among Protestants is almost always something done AFTER receiving salvation as an act of obedience, not something used to excise wicked behavior prior to salvation.

Are you certain they didn’t try to get her ‘baptised in the Holy Ghost’, i.e get her to begin to speak in tongues or otherwise display one of the miraculous charisms popular in some Pentecostal churches? Many such churches are not well-balanced nor healthy in their theology or practices, many are actively hostile to any form of secular psychological therapy. Many feel the techniques used in such therapy are either openly hostile to religious belief or even occultic, especially such therapies as employ reverie, hypnosis, or similar techiques.

The other thing that makes me think this is some offshoot Pentecostal sect is the tolerance of sexual misconduct. While such churches usually preach heavily on holiness and sexual morality, they often emphasis emotional, experience-driven spirituality. Lots of touching, hugging, kissing, happens in such churches. There is sometimes ‘catching’ of those ‘slain in the spirit’, and thrashing about on the floor in paroxyms of spiritual ecstasies sometimes cause immodiest displays. Lack of controls or accountability along with the emotionalism of the services and the frequent close physical contact seem to breed a much higher level of sexual misbehavior. The only confusing factor is that few Pentecostal sects buy into ‘once-saved/always-saved’. That’s more a hallmark of certain Baptist groups. Just speculating since you did not name the denomination.

 

[ahimsaman72]

deb1:

This is what I gathered from my sister-in-law. Their belief is that if you are truely saved then you will change your life. I do believe that the Holy Spirit works in our lifes. But her church seems to believe that there is no assistance needed beyond that. This is a girl with serious problems. She tried to commit suicide in the church’s bathroom.

Let me weigh in here for a minute. OSAS is synonymous with the term “perseverance of the saints” - which is stating that salvation can be defined at a certain moment of time and that after that moment of time no amount or kind of sin can separate you from God.

The basis of this is that faith justifies one in God’s sight (a belief Luther furthered and defined more explicitly) and the death of Christ on the cross washes away both original sin and personal sin (past, present and future). I realize this is foreign to Catholics (except converts) but there are many books by protestant ministers that talk about this.

Charles Stanley, pastor of First Baptist Church in Atlanta, GA and former President of the Southern Baptist Convention is one of the biggest proponents of the perseverance of the saints doctrine (which seems to be originally from Calvin’s TULIP). He has preached on it and has written books concerning it.

I was baptized twice (fully immersed) - once when I was a child and then at age 14. From my childhood years to my pre-teenage years I did not live a holy life and then at age 14 there was a “revival” in my hometown area and I made a more informed choice to be a Christian. Of course, since then I have fallen many times, but I have always believed that unless I commit the unpardonable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) I was bound for heaven.

After my baptism at 14 there was no instruction given. You see, since salvation occurs at one point in time and then baptism comes as a sign of that, the pastors and deacons don’t see the need to “catechize” the new believers. What would be the point? I remember after being baptized that the overall response from the pastor and deacons was a “hands off” approach to my new life in Christ. I always wanted someone to personally instruct me on what I was supposed to do. They assumed I knew.

As you may well know, baptism (to Baptists) is purely symbolic of a prior choice to become a Christian. It’s considered a “public announcement” of your intentions to follow Christ and live a holy life. So, if you understand it from that perspective, it may help you identify with what the church is doing.

I wish your acquaintance well and pray for the poor girl. May God grant her peace and stability.

 

[Mickey]

ahimsaman72:

I was baptized twice (fully immersed) - once when I was a child and then at age 14.

Greetings my friend ahimsaman!

If I may so inquire, where was your first baptism, and why did your church feel the necessity to re-baptize you?

Peace,
Mickey

 

[deb1]

flameburns623:

The whole approach of this church seems unbalanced. Very few churches baptise in order to change behavior. Very very few will re-baptise, and apart from the ‘Restorationist’ churches, no Evangelical Protestant church that I am aware of baptises someone to get them ‘saved’. Baptism among Protestants is almost always something done AFTER receiving salvation as an act of obedience, not something used to excise wicked behavior prior to salvation.

Are you certain they didn’t try to get her ‘baptised in the Holy Ghost’, i.e get her to begin to speak in tongues or otherwise display one of the miraculous charisms popular in some Pentecostal churches? Many such churches are not well-balanced nor healthy in their theology or practices, many are actively hostile to any form of secular psychological therapy. Many feel the techniques used in such therapy are either openly hostile to religious belief or even occultic, especially such therapies as employ reverie, hypnosis, or similar techiques.

The other thing that makes me think this is some offshoot Pentecostal sect is the tolerance of sexual misconduct. While such churches usually preach heavily on holiness and sexual morality, they often emphasis emotional, experience-driven spirituality. Lots of touching, hugging, kissing, happens in such churches. There is sometimes ‘catching’ of those ‘slain in the spirit’, and thrashing about on the floor in paroxyms of spiritual ecstasies sometimes cause immodiest displays. Lack of controls or accountability along with the emotionalism of the services and the frequent close physical contact seem to breed a much higher level of sexual misbehavior. The only confusing factor is that few Pentecostal sects buy into ‘once-saved/always-saved’. That’s more a hallmark of certain Baptist groups. Just speculating since you did not name the denomination.

The church has the name of Baptist but I grew up baptist and I don’t recall this type of thinking. It isn’t Pentecostal because there isn’t any type of emotional displays. There does seem to be an air of do it yourself religion about the church.

As far as the many Baptisms…I don’t know. I was taught that Baptism was only a symbol. Yet, I have been baptised twice. Once when I was nine or ten. Later, I fell away from God and when I began to attend another Baptist church as an adult, I was pressured to get Baptised again. The pastor did not believe that the act of Baptism did anything but that it was symbolic. Yet, he was very insistent that I needed to publically make my pledge to God in front of his church-even though I hadn’t been saved in his church. :ehh: Don’t ask me the logic in this.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Mickey:

Greetings my friend ahimsaman!

If I may so inquire, where was your first baptism, and why did your church feel the necessity to re-baptize you?

Peace,
Mickey

Hello dear friend!

My first and second were done by the same Baptist pastor and at the same Baptist church. Well, the church didn’t see the need to re-baptize. I simply requested to be baptized again because I wanted to make it publicly known that I had chosen as a young adult to follow Christ.

The Baptist view of baptism is not sacramental in nature, but rather kind of like “washing your hands” of your past sinful life and shows your commitment to a new, holier life. It’s a public acknowledgement to your peers and congregation that you have chosen to walk the Christian walk.

Peace and blessings to you…

 

[Mickey]

ahimsaman72:

Hello dear friend!

My first and second were done by the same Baptist pastor and at the same Baptist church. Well, the church didn’t see the need to re-baptize. I simply requested to be baptized again because I wanted to make it publicly known that I had chosen as a young adult to follow Christ.

The Baptist view of baptism is not sacramental in nature, but rather kind of like “washing your hands” of your past sinful life and shows your commitment to a new, holier life. It’s a public acknowledgement to your peers and congregation that you have chosen to walk the Christian walk.

Peace and blessings to you…

That is interesting. You probably already know why the Catholic Church does not believe in rebaptism, but this is a thorough and brief explanation from Catholic Answers:

**If a person’s initial baptism was valid, rebaptism does nothing to improve the state of the soul before God. Any valid baptism imprints a spiritual mark or character on the recipient’s soul. This mark cannot be destroyed or removed, so baptism can never be repeated. Any subsequent attempts at baptism will be invalid. They are at least materially an insult to the Holy Spirit, because they imply that what the Spirit did in the initial baptism was not sufficient. Usually, though, a person who receives a “second baptism” is not formally guilty of insulting the Holy Spirit since he has been mistaught concerning the efficacy of his initial baptism. **

Because of the invalidity of subsequent baptisms and the danger of insulting the Holy Spirit (even materially), the Church is reluctant to apply the rite of baptism to a person who already has been baptized in a non-Catholic sect. Only if there is some reason to doubt the person’s initial baptism does the Church apply the rite of baptism to him–and then it does so conditionally. A conditional baptism has the form, “[Name], if you were not already baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” This leaves the question of whether the person’s original baptism was valid up to God, and it shows that the Church never rebaptizes people baptized outside the Church.

Blessings,
Mickey

 

[ahimsaman72]

Mickey:

That is interesting. You probably already know why the Catholic Church does not believe in rebaptism, but this is a thorough and brief explanation from Catholic Answers:

**If a person’s initial baptism was valid, rebaptism does nothing to improve the state of the soul before God. Any valid baptism imprints a spiritual mark or character on the recipient’s soul. This mark cannot be destroyed or removed, so baptism can never be repeated. Any subsequent attempts at baptism will be invalid. They are at least materially an insult to the Holy Spirit, because they imply that what the Spirit did in the initial baptism was not sufficient. Usually, though, a person who receives a “second baptism” is not formally guilty of insulting the Holy Spirit since he has been mistaught concerning the efficacy of his initial baptism. **

Because of the invalidity of subsequent baptisms and the danger of insulting the Holy Spirit (even materially), the Church is reluctant to apply the rite of baptism to a person who already has been baptized in a non-Catholic sect. Only if there is some reason to doubt the person’s initial baptism does the Church apply the rite of baptism to him–and then it does so conditionally. A conditional baptism has the form, “[Name], if you were not already baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” This leaves the question of whether the person’s original baptism was valid up to God, and it shows that the Church never rebaptizes people baptized outside the Church.

Blessings,
Mickey

Yes, thanks Mickey. I was unaware at the time that it would be an insult to the Holy Spirit. Considering that the Baptist belief on baptism is already heretical, it would follow that re-baptism is insufficient and invalid. I really wish I was born Catholic. I sometimes wonder why I was born in the protestant faith, but that would lead me to drowning in self-pity. I just wish I would have known these truths from the very beginning. Only God knows why.

Peace my brother…

 

[deb1]

ahimsaman72:

Yes, thanks Mickey. I was unaware at the time that it would be an insult to the Holy Spirit. Considering that the Baptist belief on baptism is already heretical, it would follow that re-baptism is insufficient and invalid. I really wish I was born Catholic. I sometimes wonder why I was born in the protestant faith, but that would lead me to drowning in self-pity. I just wish I would have known these truths from the very beginning. Only God knows why.

Peace my brother…

Just a thought but begining in a different denomination has probably made you a stronger Catholic.

 

[Tibbar]

Catholic4aReasn:

Here’s a really good example of why OSAS doesn’t work in practice.

The contention of many OSASers is that if you turn your back on Christ then you were really never saved to begin with, even if you sincerely believed that you were. Consequently, even though they will never admit it, they can’t REALLY know if their salvation “took” until they die and they find themselves in heaven, which sounds a whole lot like Catholic teaching if you ask me (which I know no one really was ).

In Christ,
Nancy

While it is true that this girl has problems and needs serious help, one can have assurance of one’s salvation.

Knowing one has eternal life is dependent on believing Christ’s promise, not on the works one does. Since the possession of eternal life is based on believing God’s promise and on nothing else, how could works ever be necessary for assurance?

Many people think they gain eternal life by believing in Christ and by doing good works. Yet the Bible says that salvation is “the gift of God” and that it is “not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Only by believing in Christ can one be sure one has eternal life.

Until one comes to the place where one stops depending on one’s own good works, one won’t have eternal life. To be saved one must believe in Christ, not in one’s works. And, once one believes in Christ, one will be sure one is saved because one’s salvation is dependent on one’s belief in God’s promise, not on one’s works.

As for the girl she may be incapable of trusting Christ as Lord and Savior due to mental illness. First the “demon” of mental illness must be dealt with in her life before she can be set free. The church in question is going about this all in the wrong way.

 

[Mickey]

ahimsaman72:

Yes, thanks Mickey. I was unaware at the time that it would be an insult to the Holy Spirit. Considering that the Baptist belief on baptism is already heretical, it would follow that re-baptism is insufficient and invalid. I really wish I was born Catholic. I sometimes wonder why I was born in the protestant faith, but that would lead me to drowning in self-pity. I just wish I would have known these truths from the very beginning. Only God knows why.

Peace my brother…

My best friend (current baptist but very close to converting to the Catholic Church) has asked the identical questions! But God has very good reasons for our pilgrimage. Ironically, my friend, through much study, prayer, and contemplation, knows more about the Catholic faith than most Catholics! He continues to teach a Bible study course at the baptist church, and he uses the Catechism of the Catholic Church! (albeit secretly)
Those born into the protestant faith and then convert to Catholicism have a very unique perspective because of the nature of their journey. Many times they become teachers of Catholicism. I would suspect that this may be a possible destiny for you!

My daily prayers are always with you and your family.
Peace,
Mickey

 

[deb1]

Tibbar:

As for the girl she may be incapable of trusting Christ as Lord and Savior due to mental illness. First the “demon” of mental illness must be dealt with in her life before she can be set free. The church in question is going about this all in the wrong way.

I think her problem is an abusive family. From what I can tell she is not mentally ill, just misguided and confused.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Mickey:

My best friend (current baptist but very close to converting to the Catholic Church) has asked the identical questions! But God has very good reasons for our pilgrimage. Ironically, my friend, through much study, prayer, and contemplation, knows more about the Catholic faith than most Catholics! He continues to teach a Bible study course at the baptist church, and he uses the Catechism of the Catholic Church! (albeit secretly)
Those born into the protestant faith and then convert to Catholicism have a very unique perspective because of the nature of their journey. Many times they become teachers of Catholicism. I would suspect that this may be a possible destiny for you!

My daily prayers are always with you and your family.
Peace,
Mickey

Thank you my fine friend. God’s peace be upon you…

 

[ahimsaman72]

deb1:

Just a thought but begining in a different denomination has probably made you a stronger Catholic.

Thanks Deb. I’m not Catholic just yet - just waiting for some doors to open!

Peace…

 

[LittleDeb]

Tibbar:

Until one comes to the place where one stops depending on one’s own good works, one won’t have eternal life. To be saved one must believe in Christ, not in one’s works. And, once one believes in Christ, one will be sure one is saved because one’s salvation is dependent on one’s belief in God’s promise, not on one’s works.

Satan ‘believes’ in Christ too. Does that mean he’s saved and can never sin again? I don’t know who exactly this addresses but I know of no Christian (especially Catholics!) who depends on himself to be saved. We all depend on God. HOW we depend on God might be up for debate. This statement sounds like so many other anti-Catholic statemnts. Please cease. You have no credibility with anyone with these statements.

 

[MariaG]

Tibbar:

While it is true that this girl has problems and needs serious help, one can have assurance of one’s salvation.

Knowing one has eternal life is dependent on believing Christ’s promise, not on the works one does. Since the possession of eternal life is based on believing God’s promise and on nothing else, how could works ever be necessary for assurance?

Many people think they gain eternal life by believing in Christ and by doing good works. Yet the Bible says that salvation is “the gift of God” and that it is “not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Only by believing in Christ can one be sure one has eternal life.

Until one comes to the place where one stops depending on one’s own good works, one won’t have eternal life. To be saved one must believe in Christ, not in one’s works. And, once one believes in Christ, one will be sure one is saved because one’s salvation is dependent on one’s belief in God’s promise, not on one’s works.

As for the girl she may be incapable of trusting Christ as Lord and Savior due to mental illness. First the “demon” of mental illness must be dealt with in her life before she can be set free. The church in question is going about this all in the wrong way.

It’s funny, I don’t know anyone who thinks their works get them to heaven. The only people I know who constantly talk about people need to stop earning their way to heaven are non-Catholics who don’t understand Catholic teachings.

But as a Catholic, you already know that Catholic Christians do not believe or teach that we earn our way to heaven.

By assurance of salvation you, I am sure are not talking of infallible certitude.

From CA Library Assurance of Salvation?
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I *will be *saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

 

[jim1130]

deb1:

There is a 16 year old girl that attends her church. The girl is from an incrediably troubled home, with drugs and alcohol and abuse. My sister-in-law expressed concerns that the girl’s salvation “took” this time. Confused, I asked what she meant. My sister-in-law said that the church had been working with the girl to get her to become a Christian. Three times they have convinced her to accept Jesus and three times they have baptised her. Each time they looked for signs that her behavior was changing to prove that they holy spirit was actually working in her life. She was suicidal and sexually active so they concluded that she was only looking for attention. So, they worked on her harder to get saved. This time, according to my sister-in-law, the girl is calmer and getting better grades. She is still sexually active but this is overlooked because she has assured my sister-in-law that she is using condomns. It would make better sense for this church to provide heavy duty guidance for the girl. She is obviously searching for help or else she wouldn’t take the time to continue attending this church.(her parents don’t go). It seems like the whole push in my sister-in-laws church is on this girl’s salvation and the hope that once she is saved the Holy Spirit by itself will change her life. No one cares that she is openly sexually active with one of the assistant pastor’s sons. Or that maybe she needs more help with the safety issues at home. Her stepfather abuses her and her mother. Am I wrong in thinking that there is something odd about this church’s approach? How does a Catholic Church handle children from troubled homes with little guidance?

As cold as this may sound, the church’s approach is relatively simplistic. God is not going to enter her body and turn the switch from “BAD” to “GOOD” thereby making all her problems go away. Without wanting to sound harsh, we are not talking about a vending machine experience (Put in some money, push a button, and out pops what you asked for). In this case, Baptism is expected to magically repair the young girl, and she will be baptized over and over again until she (a) actually goes through a miraculous transformation, (b) fakes the transformation so that people leave her alone, or (c) catches a bad cold. It does not work that way. God never said that life would be easy and He never made any promises that our paths will be smooth and worry free. He did promise to trust in Him, but that does not mean He will intervene and solve all our problems. He loves us, but he also gave us free will and with that free will there are consequences to all of our actions, whether good or bad.

Right now, she is self-destructive and compromising any standards because she obviously suffers from low self-esteem. It is hard for someone with such a low opinion of self to understand God’s love; that “I don’t love myself so how can God love me?” Also, she wants immediate gratification and response from God, and that is not going to happen. If she plans to stand around waiting for God to fix her then she is going to have a long wait.

I cannot speak for the Catholic Church, but confronting the self-destructive nature is a good start. Then, rather than pray and try more baptizing because she may interpret any absence of immediate spiritual response as “God does not care about me” or “Prayer and baptism do not work because I am still bad”, arrange time for her to become involved in charitable situations ( serve breakfast after morning service, work in a soup kitchen, volunteer at an animal rescue center, etc.). Sometimes when people are involved in activities they begin to lose their self-centeredness and begin to gain a sense of worth because of the appreciation others express toward them.

When I was going through a tough time, I knew an Auschwitz survivor so I asked him how did he survive the concentration camp; asking if he survived on prayer alone. He answered that prayer is good, but that you also need to dig your heels in and not quit. From that, I interpreted his survival was based on faith and action.

For this young girl, faith alone is not enough at this time in her life. Nor is prayer alone the answer because she will expect immediate results (And why not? How often does she hear other people say “God answered my prayers” thereby reinforcing that God favors others over her because God is not answering her prayers). She needs some positive action and reinforcement. Getting her from her me-only world and into the world of others, perhaps those less fortunate, is not intended to assign guilt, but allow her the opportunity to receive what she has obviously lacked for years and years and years: Appreciation. She probably has the ability to help others, especially other teens in the future, but for now she needs to realize that God wants her to succeed, but he also wants her to succeed on her own volition.

Does this make any sense?

 

[deb1]

Jim

I really liked what you said. It made a lot of sense. I think that getting her involved in helping others is genius. :clapping: Next time I talk with my SIL I will suggest this to her. I can’t promise that she will listen, though.

 

[jim1130]

deb1:

Jim

I really liked what you said. It made a lot of sense. I think that getting her involved in helping others is genius. :clapping: Next time I talk with my SIL I will suggest this to her. I can’t promise that she will listen, though.

I think allof us remember what it was like to be 16. And you are very kind in your words to me. Thank you,a nd I pray that all will turn out for the best for everyone involved. Jim