Once saved always saved conversation

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I was having a conversation with my Protestant family member. He firmly adheres to the thinking of “once saved always saved”. I showed him several verses that clearly do not support this thinking. His argument then turned to then this individuals were never truly saved. This made no sense to me, but I need a more coherent defense against this statement.
 
To me, this is clearly addressed in the story of Adam and Eve. The idea of OSAS is that once one has tasted of the goodness of God they could never, ever go back to being away from Him. There’s some merit to that in that it’s a beautiful sentiment and Jesus said “no one can take them out of the Father’s hand”…but he DIDN’T say “they can never leave the Father’s hand”), but ultimately wrong. It shows how rebellious we actually are. (Kind of interesting since OSAS people are typically also believers in the total depravity of man…)

Anyway, Adam and Eve lived in the total knowledge and in full relationship with God and they severed that. They were ABSOLUTELY “saved” in that there wasn’t anything even to be really saved from in the first place. They were ABSOLUTELY of free will to go against that and choose sin. They ABSOLUTELY rejected God and lost their standing with Him.
 
Jrp72 said:
…but I need a more coherent defense against this statement.
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Actually, you don’t. You’re not defending Catholic Doctrine. Truth needs no defense. You have passed on the truth. You’ve done your duty. If he doesn’t want to accept the truth, that is his problem.

Remember, it is not your job to convert or convince anyone. Only God can do that.
I was having a conversation with my Protestant family member. He firmly adheres to the thinking of “once saved always saved”. I showed him several verses that clearly do not support this thinking. His argument then turned to then this individuals were never truly saved.
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He obviously realized the flaw in his thinking. Thus, he responded the only way that he could.
This made no sense to me,
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It doesn’t make sense. Especially when coupled with the Teaching of Scripture. But, let’s look at it in more detail, in case it comes up again.
His argument then turned to then this individuals were never truly saved.
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1st. Then why did they claim that they were? Tell him, these individuals were Protestants and believed in OSAS just as he does.

If they weren’t truly saved, why did they claim that they were saved.

2nd. Why does Scripture show examples of believing Christians, who tasted the heavenly gifts, and yet, they fell away? (Heb 6:4-6).

Now, in my experience, the next thing they do is pull up 1 John 5:13. So that you may know that you have eternal life.

However, St. John says, “I have written these things”. Well, that’s not the only think he wrote. What else did he write? He wrote, "

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Ask him if he keeps the Commandments. Typically, Protestants claim it is no longer necessary to keep the Commandments. And that should knock him for a loop. Whether or not he is convinced, will depend upon God’s grace working in him. There’s little else you can do but show him the evidence.
 
Jrp72 said:
I showed him several verses that clearly do not support this thinking.
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That will never get you anywhere. n Sola scriptura might be better put * partialis scriptura* . . . an practice that dates back to Luther’s issues with James . . .
 
The verses that I showed him made him pause and he had no explanation other than saying they were never truly saved in the first place. Really? That’s your come back. I really struggle with this as being the only Catholic in my family. How can they possible believe that you are not held accountable for your actions once you are “saved’? I was using only the Bible for my defense, which they believe has all the answers, but he still couldn’t come up with a logical explanation. My entire family believes this. It boggles my mind
 
I agree 100% with @dochawk and start with sola Scriptura. For example ask, “using the Bible and the Bible alone, where does the Bible teach the Bible alone.” They’ll go to 2 Timothy 3:16 but when you read that verse in its context Saint Paul is reminding Timothy first who he learned the faith, Paul himself, second what he learned as a child, the Hebrew Scriptures. If this verse where to teach the “Bible alone” it would be teaching “sola Old Testament” (the Church did not refer to the New Testament as “the Scriptures” until around the mid third century) which is of course ridiculous.
Jrp72 said:
His argument then turned to then this individuals were never truly saved.
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I’ve heard this before and it makes no sense 😂 The OSAS idea is that once you have “accepted Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” you are saved. But they then say that this person was never truly saved. What hogwash!

Once you tackle the Bible alone show that salvation is a process. It begins with baptism and continues as a life long journey. Instead of slinging Bible verses back and forth acknowledge that the Bible does teach that salvation is a past event. I can’t think of the verses off the top of my head. Next, show them that the Bible teaches that salvation. Is happening now, as Saint Paul speaks of “working out our salvation” (not sure if that’s the exact quote). Finally, show that the Bible speaks of salvation as a future event, “we will be saved.” Lastly, if one speaks of salvation but does does not mention baptism, chrismation/confirmation or the Eucharist they are going against apostolic teaching.

Good luck!

ZP
 
Prayer, prayer, and prayer. In my observation, OSAS has produced a lazy, even arrogant faith. It is triumphalist in nature, but completely misses the fact that it puts God to the test.

You might ask him to delineate the reasons that he knows that he is saved, and why others are not. But, one does wonder why the Kingdom of Heaven has gates, and why Saint Peter has been given the keys.

Personally, I believe in OIHAIH (Once in Heaven, always in Heaven). But, until those gates slam shut behind you, God’s mercy is more crucial than the air we breathe.
 
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I asked a Baptist friend one day if he believed in OSAS and his response was “certainly not”. So i asked him how can even Baptist believe so differently on this issue and which side was correct. He bowed his head and said “i don’t know”.

The fact is all protestants are not on same page with this and other issues and there is no mechanism in their own paradigm, sola scripture, to show them which side is correct. If they cannot correct themselves im sure you wont be able to do much either.

Peace!!!
 
There are stories and even books out about former preachers and pastors who turned atheist. Before they became atheists they surely thought they were saved, and those around them surely thought they were saved. If they could be so self-deluded about the state of their salvation, and could delude those around them, then the same thing could happen to ANY OSAS believer. Including your family member. Tell him you’ll look forward to reading his Believer-To-Atheist book when he writes it. 🙂
 
Jrp72 said:
His argument then turned to then this individuals were never truly saved.
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Under that argument, no one is truly saved, as we have free will, and can always stop believing at any time. It’s just ridiculous. Only he who perseveres to the end will be saved, after all. And that’s in the Bible.
 
Jrp72 said:
The verses that I showed him made him pause and he had no explanation other than saying they were never truly saved in the first place. Really? That’s your come back. I really struggle with this as being the only Catholic in my family. How can they possible believe that you are not held accountable for your actions once you are “saved’? I was using only the Bible for my defense, which they believe has all the answers, but he still couldn’t come up with a logical explanation. My entire family believes this. It boggles my mind
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You could tell him that this underlines the fact that no one can know if they are saved or not. Anyone who thinks they are need only to “backslide” at some point in the future to find out that they were indeed never saved. The whole philosophy of OSAS has to be so stressful to live under unless you think saying the sinners prayer seals your salvation no matter what. Some adherents even believe that if you don’t KNOW you are going to heaven, then you aren’t really saved. What a mind game that must be!
 
Eternal Security of Once Saved Always Saved is a False Doctrine

https://www.defendingthebride.com/mo/salvation.html

See the sections below especially the one on Saint Paul

FALSE SECURITY Verses TRUE SECURITY

PRESUMPTION : And the Danger of Reading into the Bible

SERIOUS SIN CAN SEPARATE THE CHRISTIAN FROM GOD

SALVATION IS NOT ONLY A PAST EVENT
John 19:30 “It is finished”

SAINT PAUL COULD LOSE HIS SALVATION
 
Jesus taught that many people who thought they were saved are not and many who don’t know they are saved are. How then can a multitude of people say that they are saved? They were presented a sales pitch and bought it. I wouldn’t want to be part of that group.

Mathew 7
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’
 
I think this quote is also aimed at “born agains”
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7: 21-KJV)
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Some, yes, but not all. No guarantee here.
 
If you think you’re worthy enough to be saved, you’re probably not.
 
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John_the_Blind said:
If you think you’re worthy enough to be saved, you’re probably not.
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OSAS folks believe just the opposite. They put total trust in Jesus covering them because they know they’re not worthy…which has a strong element of truth to it. It’s an attractive belief too because it takes all onus off of the believer.

Prayer is good for any situation, so definitely pray. I’d also direct him towards the historic teachings of Christianity. OSAS is a relatively new concept. Ask your relative what he thinks about that. Doesn’t the fact that few, if any, held the belief prior to the Reformation disturb him?
 
History to a born again:

The Apostles: a long time ago
The Reformation, and everything else that happened since: a little while ago

😀
 
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