Once Saved Always Saved Theory

[thomasf]

I didn’t say you were ignorant. I stated the facts. Catholics have the history, authority, etc. Protestants don’t. Sometimes the truth hurts, sorry. I didn’t realize you needed to be validated.

 

[St_Violet]

help me understand plz, after looking at the TULIP, it still violates our free-will, and it contradicts the purpose of the new covenant, and Christ’s heavy sacrifice.

 

[Calvinator]

help me understand plz, after looking at the TULIP, it still violates our free-will, and it contradicts the purpose of the new covenant, and Christ’s heavy sacrifice.

What do you mean by “free will”?

Also, how does it contradict the purpose of the new covenant?

 

[christcnection1]

Not every non-Catholic is guilty of what you are accusing. I apreciate your support on my opinion however I am not oblivious to your own small bias in your response. Lutherans have no concept of “elect” (the vast majority at least… I can’t speak for the MissourSynod however…). Neither do Anglicans/Episcipalians… etc.

Also the phrase “many of our non-Catholic brothers” falls under a certain technique in rhetoric called “political framing” where somethign that is really quite benign is stated in such a way as to make the opposite seem negative. You were in effect stating that most non-Catholics hold an innacurate view. That really is not quantifiable, but common sense lends one to disagree with such a statement. To make the technique of political framing more clear, take for example the terms “pro-life” and “pro-choice” (both terms I disdain). They are framed as such: people who supportlegalized abortion make it seem like those opposed are opposed to women having choices in life (thus, they are PRO CHOICE) while those who oppose legalized abortion make it seem like those who do support it areNOT pro-life (silly and most people see through thatm however many people only see “black and white” and really will think this…)

sorry I rambled…

Would you prefer “Protestants?” I use “Non-Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ” to qualify that we are siblings, but acknowledge our real differences. Most “Protestants” aren’t protesting anything. Many dislike that word.

I can’t please everyone, but I would be happy to please you. What do you prefer to be referred to as?

Also, I wasn’t quite sure what you meant by “I am not oblivious to your own small bias in your response.” Please clarify that for me.

God bless.

 

[St_Violet]

What do you mean by “free will”?

Also, how does it contradict the purpose of the new covenant?

if you feel that I am wrong then please help me understand this Doctrine like you understand it.

 

[allischalmers]

What you should be asking yourself is what is your religion based on. Where are your foundations? Does your religion come from the first christians themselves? Did the apostles practice your form of religion? Did they promote your beliefs and theories?

Yes, that why Baptist Churches are called New Testament churches

 

[JesseW]

I had a discussion with my fundamentalist bro-in-law about this once. According to his “brand” of OSAS, if one is “born again” and accepts Christ, he will not commit serious sin and be saved. However, if one does commit serious sin after “accepting Christ” and dies in that state, he never “really” accepted Christ in the first place. Pretty circular argument, isn’t it?

There is another brand of OSAS that says if one is “saved” then it doesn’t matter if they sin or not. They can’t lose their salvation. I’ve heard of a man who committed adultery and left his wife for that woman. When she went to the pastor to try to get him to talk some sense to her husband, he basically stated there was really nothing that he could say to him because his salvation was assured regardless of his actions.

I think it’s pretty important to understand what mainstream non-Catholic christians actually believe that adopt the OSAS doctrine. First, it falls between these two extremes. It takes into consideration the “journey” of a Christian here on earth. One will backslide perhaps, but for those who have sincerely accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit is now at work in their lives. That creates new motivations, new desires for God, etc. So the trend through life should be positive. These Evangelicals, etc believe that the Holy Spirit can safeguard individuals much the same way that Catholics believe He has safeguarded the Church for the last 2,000 years.

Now I come from a Baptist background, but have attended non-denominational, Calvary Chapel, and other churches through college, etc. Some do not claim the OSAS doctrine, but the beliefs people from all these varied congregations lived by were basically the same, only packaged differently- if that makes any sense.

O.K. For example- Baptists are known as diehard OSAS, but they always stress a balance between Galatians and James. Here’s a prime example. Rich Mullins was a Christian singer and songwriter and is still held in high regard by Baptists. Here are the lyrics to one of his songs:

Screen Door
Rich Mullins
The Book of James
Copyright 1986 BMG Songs, Inc. (ASCAP)

It’s about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine
Faith without works, baby, it just ain’t happenin’
One is your left hand, one is your right
It’ll take two strong arms mmmhmm to hold on tight
Some folks’ll cut off their nose just to spite their face
I think you need some works to show for your alleged faith
Well there’s a difference you know,
‘Tween having faith and playing make-believe
One will make you grow, the other one just make you sleep
Talk about (yeah) but I really think you oughta take a
leap up off the ship before you claim to walk on water
Faith without works, like a song you can’t sing
It’s about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine
Faith comes from God, and every word that He breathes
He lets you take it to your heart
So you can give it hands and feet
It’s gotta be active if it’s gonna be alive
You’ve gotta put it into practice (dit dit dit dit dit dit) otherwise,
It’s about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine
Faith without works, baby, it just ain’t happenin’
One is your right hand, one is your left
It’s your light, your guide, your life and your breath
Faith without works, is like a song you can’t sing
It’s about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine
Faith without works, like a song you can’t sing
It’s about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Yes, that why Baptist Churches are called New Testament churches

Sorry, slightly OT - would you please explain to me why a student of the apostle John, y’know, one of the New Testament authors, would later write a letter to the church in Smyrna and say:

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. " ~Ignatius of Antioch, 1st Century AD

That doesn’t sound very Baptist to me!

 

[Calvinator]

if you feel that I am wrong then please help me understand this Doctrine like you understand it.

I haven’t read all or even many of the posts on this thread so I may have missed something.

But, everyone has a different meaning for the term “free will”, I was curious what you thought it meant or what it means to you.

 

[allischalmers]

Sorry, slightly OT - would you please explain to me why a student of the apostle John, y’know, one of the New Testament authors, would later write a letter to the church in Smyrna and say:

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. " ~Ignatius of Antioch, 1st Century AD

That doesn’t sound very Baptist to me!

Sure, if you understand that the word Catholic means universal and that bishop is synonymous with pastor. elder, overseer or prebyter. And that the word eucharist means thankgiving meal.

 

[jimmy85]

Sure, if you understand that the word Catholic means universal and that bishop is synonymous with pastor. elder, overseer or prebyter. And that the word eucharist means thankgiving meal.

hmm…

St Ignatious of Antioch

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians

Chapter 4. Have but one Eucharist,

Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever you do, you may do it according to [the will of] God.

 

[jimmy85]

I think the doctrine of the Once Saved Always Saved Theory comes from the faith alone doctrine of Luther.

Some fundamentalists think that only by saying that Jesus is the Lord they are save regardless of the ten comandments or of the moral teaching.

However if soemone claim Jesus to be the Lord, he must therefore follow his moral teachings.

those stuffs cant be separated from each other.

 

[onenow1]

Infant baptism:.
The infant can do nothing, nor does the infant need to do anything, in order to be “saved”. The church freely supplies all that’s necessary, including the water, the faith, and the grace, while the infant truly becomes a temple of the Holy Spirit, an adopted child of God, a member of the Church, and co-heir with Jesus Christ … simply because God desires all to be saved.
The Catholic sacrament of Confirmation later allows each person to make the declaration of faith that was made for them at baptism. Salvation without works= Baptism !

Genesis 1: 1-2, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

Titus. 3: 4-8, but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
The saying is sure. I desire you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to apply themselves to good deeds; these are excellent and profitable to men.

Peace, OneNow1:coffeeread:

 

[St_Violet]

I think the doctrine of the Once Saved Always Saved Theory comes from the faith alone doctrine of Luther.

Calvin was a fan of Luther

 

[rmcmullan]

Blah! Debate has become annoying, so I shall resort to dismissal! Good day, Sir!

Good day indeed! Hilarious!

 

[upciguy26]

protestants hold a heretical belief that once one is saved, they are always saved.

It makes no sense. if that was the case, will Judas Iscariot be in Heaven, because he might have been saved? If I decided to convert to Judaism tomorrow would I be saved?

It is a heretical belief with no justification from the Bible whatsoever. It’s another example of how protestants do everything they can to corrupt our Scripture.

Only those of Calvinist persuasion believe this doctrine.

Methodists, Pentecostals, Free-Will Baptists, Church of Christ, Non-Denominational, Mormon, etc…
These all DO NOT believe in the concept of OSAS or that the writers of the New Testament even wanted to convey such a message.

 

[christcnection1]

Only those of Calvinist persuasion believe this doctrine.

Methodists, Pentecostals, Free-Will Baptists, Church of Christ, Non-Denominational, Mormon, etc…
These all DO NOT believe in the concept of OSAS or that the writers of the New Testament even wanted to convey such a message.

Hmm… this reveals the potential implications of Sola Scriptura in my opinion.

It would be much easier if the Bible said “scripture alone is the final and sole rule of faith.”

Interestingly, many of these groups have serious disagreements on many doctrines, not just OSAS.

If there is no higher authority than the Bible, then you should feel free to interpret it how ever you think it’s right.

If you’re looking for more objective clarity, I do not think one can expect a great deal of theological unity among Sola Scripturists.

Shouldn’t this be an “essential” issue ALL Christians agree on??

(Either way, thank God many of you do not believe in OSAS!)

I love all you guys, but I don’t know how you can do it.

God bless,
JB

 

[Syele]

God is the final and sole rule of Faith. It is Him we have faith in. The Bible is the sole written word of God.

But then again, I don’t believe in sola scriptura as defined by the reformers or OSAS.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I think the doctrine of the Once Saved Always Saved Theory comes from the faith alone doctrine of Luther.

Nooooooo… [sigh]

OSAS is all about John Calvin. If you want a Catholic source to confirm that, read here near the bottom of the page:

The first person to espouse the idea of “once saved, always saved” was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory. Prior to Calvin, the unanimous consent of the early Christians was that a person is capable of losing his salvation by committing mortal sin, as John spoke about in 1 John 5:16–17.

Three quotes from Luther (from direct sources):

“We have now heard enough what toil and labor is required to retain all that for which we pray, and to persevere therein, which, however, is not achieved without infirmities and stumbling. Besides, although we have received forgiveness and a good conscience and are entirely acquitted, yet is our life of such a nature that one stands to-day and to-morrow falls. Therefore, even though we be godly now and stand before God with a good conscience, we must pray again that He would not suffer us to relapse and yield to trials and temptations. … Then comes the devil, inciting and provoking in all directions, but especially agitating matters that concern the conscience and spiritual affairs, namely, to induce us to despise and disregard both the Word and works of God to tear us away from faith, hope, and love and bring us into misbelief, false security, and obduracy, or, on the other hand, to despair, denial of God, blasphemy, and innumerable other shocking things. These are indeed snares and nets, yea, real fiery darts which are shot most venomously into the heart, not by flesh and blood, but by the devil. Great and grievous, indeed, are these dangers and temptations which every Christian must bear, even though each one were alone by himself, so that every hour that we are in this vile life where we are attacked on all sides, chased and hunted down, we are moved to cry out and to pray that God would not suffer us to become weary and faint and to relapse into sin, shame, and unbelief. For otherwise it is impossible to overcome even the least temptation. This, then, is leading us not into temptation, to wit, when He gives us power and strength to resist, the temptation, however, not being taken away or removed. For while we live in the flesh and have the devil about us, no one can escape temptation and allurements; and it cannot be otherwise than that we must endure trials, yea, be engulfed in them; but we pray for this, that we may not fall and be drowned in them.” (Martin Luther, Large Catechism XII, On the Lord’s Prayer, 6th Petition).

“Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief” (Martin Luther, Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22).

“Verse 4, “Ye are fallen from grace.” That means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the ship he falls into the water. Those who fall from grace perish no matter how they go about it. … The words, “Ye are fallen from grace,” must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation.” (Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians, 5:4).

O+

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Nooooooo… [sigh]

OSAS is all about John Calvin. If you want a Catholic source to confirm that, read here near the bottom of the page:

O+

Thank you for clarifying that. I was pretty sure, from talking to Lutherans and attending a Lutheran church for a year and a half, that they believed (same as Catholics) that you can choose to walk away from God and His gift of salvation.