Once saved, always saved

[RobGentner]

One of our catechist, who is a convert, still hangs onto the Protestant belief of "once saved, always saved. When challenged she provide a lot of on-line Protestant information. Where can I find Catholic information to refute this?

**
Joanmoran, many people who swim the Tiber bring their beliefs from their old religion with them. I am an “old” cradle Catholic, I have many “old” beliefs that I personally struggle with everyday. They are a part of who I am. Understand? Attempt to tell her that to be a Cathoilc is to accept the Dogma of our Faith on FAITH! We as Catholics do not believe in OSAS !

However, as Catholics we have to respect the small" t" tradition of our religion, until or unless they are changed, and we “must” comply with the Large “T” Traditions of our faith or fear becoming excommunicated from the RCC. We are not allowed to practice beliefs of other denominations that conflict with RCC beliefs!

Most of all, be kind!:hug3: Pray for her. Prayer is very strong

I also would suggest a quiet talk with your pastor and/or DRE to provide them with your concerns. This is their area of concern as well as yours.

Now to “fight” her use her “weapon” of choice Scripture:
Matthew 24:13,24,25 ; Luke 8:5-8,11-15 ; 12:45,46 ; 14:34,35 ; 15:13,21,24 ; 22:31,32 ; and John 15:1,2,6 ; Romans 11:17-22 ; 1 Corinthians 3:16,17 ; 9:27 ; 10:1-12 ; 11:31,32 ; 15:1,2 ; Galatians 5:4,7 Philippians 2:12,13 ; Colossians 1:22,23 ; 1 Thessalonians 3:5,8 ; and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; 1 Timothy 1:5-7 ; 3:6,7 ; 4:1 ; 5:12,15 ; 6:10,20,21; 2 Timothy 2:15,17,18 ; 3:14,15 ; 4:3,4 ; Hebrews 2:1-3 ; 3:12-14,18 ; 4:1,11-13 ; 6:4-6 ; 10:26,29,38 ; 12:15-17 ; and James 1:14,15 ; 5:19,20; 1 Peter 1:9 ; 2 Peter 1:10 ; 2:15,16,20,21 ; 3:17,18; 1 John 2:24,25,28 ; Revelation 2:5,10,11 ; 3:1-5,16 ; and 22:19. Enough ammunition?

Surely God does not contradict Himself, and clearly none of the following Scriptures mean that we are: “Once Saved, Always Saved!”: John 3:36 ; Hebrews 13:4-6 ; Romans 8:35-39 ; John 6:35-37 ; 10:27-30 ; 14:16 ; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 ; Hebrews 7:25 ; 10:10,14 ; 1 Peter 1:5,9 ; 2 Timothy 2:10-13 ; 1:12 ; Ephesians 2:8-10 ; 1:11-14 ; Matthew 28:20 ; Philippians 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:1,2 ; and 2 Corinthians 5:5,10,11,17.

Since many of our Catholic beliefs are not always as explicit in Scripture as is OSAS, Fundamentalists conclude that our Catholic doctrines are “false”. To that the position of the Catholic Church is that if we are right and what we teach is true, then the teaching of sola scriptura must be false. Sola scriptura, or the Protestant “Bible only” theory is just that a “theory”! That being so, there is absolutely no problem with the RCC “officially” defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in direct contradiction to Scripture. After all, the Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world. John 14:26, 16:13. The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

I hope this helps you!


**

 

[RobGentner]

A person is saved when they are in Christ, salvation is only found in Christ.

The people Paul referred to in his letter to the Galatians were severed from Christ for seeking to be justified by the law. They were trying to earn there salvation and so they were severed from Christ. When they were severed from Christ they lost the salvation that they had which is only found in Christ.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

.

**
Emeraldisle, I agree with you You are not defending OSAS in any way. CentralFLJames is wrong! **

 

[RobGentner]

You cannot use that because no one knows Judas’ final end. Such speculation is fruitless. The Catechism states:Even in Judas’ case, we cannot be sure.

It is far better to refute such things with scripture and actual church teaching.

**
Churchmilitant You are 'spot on" !**

 

[po18guy]

Judas was saved. He taught, healed and cast out demons. But, what did Christ say about his end? See Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:21 and Luke 22:22

Christ did not believe in OSAS.

2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

Saint Peter did not believe in OSAS.

 

[RobGentner]

Read scriptures to find out what God says?

Ho-boy Emerald - here we go again. Don’t you ever give it up on your OSAS fundamentalism? We have defeated the OSAS arguments a thousands times: Protestants who accept OSAS: How do you explain these scriptures?

What you really mean here is: read scriptures while wearing your fundamentalist lenses and in your scrupolous mind imagine what Emerald and Luther say in their private and heretical revelations.

In addition to the hundreds of scripture verses that contradict OSAS we have the undeniable reality of free will - that can change at anytime up to the last moment of death:

The final proof…
“We have nothing of our own but our will.** It is the only thing **which God has so placed in our own power that we can make an offering of it to Him.” St John Vianney (The Curé d’Ars – 1786-1859)

If God didn’t want us to be able to choose He would not have given us the gift of freewill. It is this gift which places us above the animals. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God. It is this gift, and only this gift, which allows us to truly love Him as a child loves its father. It is this gift which proves that ‘once saved, always saved’ must be wrong.

If we are saved in spite of ourselves then there is no freewill. If there is no freewill then the Bible is wrong!

James

**

My Brother James, I must ask: Why are you picking on emeraldisle? I have read her post and I find her sinless, for what that is worth. Please remember you are a christian first! Be kind my brother! :tiphat: Jesus loves all of us! :hug3: **

 

[Michael_Francis]

Please refrain from discussing each other and deal with the topic and thread at hand. I have pruned some off topic posts that did not lend to the thread topic.

 

[RobGentner]

Please refrain from discussing each other and deal with the topic and thread at hand. I have pruned some off topic posts that did not lend to the thread topic.

Excellent advise! God bless all!

 

[RobGentner]

Judas was saved. He taught, healed and cast out demons. But, what did Christ say about his end? See Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:21 and Luke 22:22

Christ did not believe in OSAS.
**
I Love each and every one of you! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the lde by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.” Boy wasn’t he correct?

Since many Catholic beliefs are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that church doctrines are “false”.:whacky: However, If the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of " sola scriptura " must be false. Correct? Sola scriptura, or the Protestant “Bible only” theory is just that … a theory! Therefore there is no problem with the Church “officially” defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, I mean, so long as it is not in direct contradiction to Scripture. Would you agree?After all, as we believe, the Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly— tyhat is, guide them, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world. John 14:26, 16:13. The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a “guarantee” that it is true! (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15)**

 

[po18guy]

I Love each and every one of you! 2 Peter 2:20 “If they have escaped the corruption of the lde by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.” Boy wasn’t he correct?

Since many Catholic beliefs are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that church doctrines are “false”. However, If the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of " sola scriptura " must be false.Correct? Sola scriptura, or the Protestant “Bible only” theory is just that … a theory! Therefore there is no problem with the Church “officially” defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, I mean, so long as it is not in direct contradiction to Scripture. Would you agree?After all, as we believe, the Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly— tyhat is, guide them, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world. John 14:26, 16:13. The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a “guarantee” that it is true! (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15)

American was founded by Protestants, and such thinking has infected our church. The church is the final authority, just as Christ taught. There was no bible when Christ walked this earth. So, how was it intended to be the authority? It was not Christ, but Luther who gave the book “authority”. The Scribes and Pharisees had twisted scripture and made the Word of God void. He made sure that would not happen in His church.

 

[Tomster]

One of our catechist, who is a convert, still hangs onto the Protestant belief of "once saved, always saved. When challenged she provide a lot of on-line Protestant information. Where can I find Catholic information to refute this?

You might want to download this and give her a copy.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2CATEC.htm

If she is a convert, she may need some help in authentic catechesis.

See paragraphs 30 through 32!

 

[emeraldisle]

Judas was saved. He taught, healed and cast out demons. But, what did Christ say about his end? See Matthew 26:24; Mark 14:21 and Luke 22:22

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:22-23

Judas was never in Christ therefore he didn’t have salvation which is only found in Christ.

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70

Salvation depends on a person being in Christ and not a person doing something to earn salvation. No-one can earn salvation.

The people in Galatia were severed from Christ because they were seeking to justify themselves by the law. At one time they were trusting Christ for their salvation and then they foolishly decided to try to justify themselves by the law and so they were severed from Christ. These people lost their salvation which is only found in Christ alone.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

.

 

[po18guy]

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:22-23

Judas was never in Christ therefore he didn’t have salvation which is only found in Christ.

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70

Salvation depends on a person being in Christ and not a person doing something to earn salvation. No-one can earn salvation.

The people in Galatia were severed from Christ because they were seeking to justify themselves by the law. At one time they were trusting Christ for their salvation and then they foolishly decided to try to justify themselves by the law and so they were severed from Christ. These people lost their salvation which is only found in Christ alone.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

.

Well, this is an interesting area. I see it differently. “A house divided cannot stand”. Since Judas healed and cast out demons, it certainly appears that satan was not in him at that point. But, witness when satan saw his opportunity:

John 13:26-28 Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

Well, what does this say about those who reject, or do not partake of the Eucharist? It was in the physical accepting of Christ’s Body that the evil one saw his chance. This occurred at the very institution of the Eucharist. I also wonder what this says of those who do signs and wonders in His name, but He does not know them. Quite interesting.

 

[RobGentner]

Well, this is an interesting area. I see it differently. “A house divided cannot stand”. Since Judas healed and cast out demons, it certainly appears that satan was not in him at that point. But, witness when satan saw his opportunity:

John 13:26-28 Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

Well, what does this say about those who reject, or do not partake of the Eucharist? It was in the physical accepting of Christ’s Body that the evil one saw his chance. This occurred at the very institution of the Eucharist. I also wonder what this says of those who do signs and wonders in His name, but He does not know them. Quite interesting.

**For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23

Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes on me will have everlasting life…"John 6:47

He who seeks God first finds favor, but trouble will come to him who seeks evil. Proverbs 11:27

The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. John 6:37

For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Isn’t that great…salvation…everlasting life! It doesn’t matter what you have done, who you are, or what you are into. Jesus loves you so much, He made it simple for you to spend the rest of you life with Him in Heaven! If we confess our sins…

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 **

 

[emeraldisle]

Well, this is an interesting area. I see it differently. “A house divided cannot stand”. Since Judas healed and cast out demons, it certainly appears that satan was not in him at that point. But, witness when satan saw his opportunity:

A person casting out demons etc is not a sign that they are in Christ.

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:22-23

The Lord Jesus has made it very clear that Judas Iscariot was not His. Therefore he never lost salvation which is only found in Christ.

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70-71

.

 

[po18guy]

A person casting out demons etc is not a sign that they are in Christ.

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:22-23

The Lord Jesus has made it very clear that Judas Iscariot was not His. Therefore he never lost salvation which is only found in Christ.

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70-71

.

Best of luck with your modern theory.

 

[RobGentner]

Best of luck with your modern theory.

**
Actually,emeraldisle’s position isn’t Modern. I was wondering if you notice all that was done was repeat, and repeat again what you had already responded to, very eloquently, as if by doing that he increased the validity of what he said! He didn’t of course

Both of you might do good to remember that all these things happened to fulfill prophesy that the Creator had planned to be fulfilled at this time. Jesus chose Judas, not the other way around. Jesus knew them all, before He picked them. Jesus came to die for all our sins. He must die on the Cross. He must be sold with thirty silver coins. He must be pierced by nail. He must not die by accident nor by poison nor by any other means. All of these were foretold long before the birth of Jesus Christ. God had chosen Judas Iscariot to fulfill all those prophesy. That’s why Jesus did not stop Judas Iscariot from doing it instead Jesus said, “What you are about to do, do quickly”.
Please keep in mind that Judas was predestined to be a betrayer just as Jesus was predestined to die for all our sins. Jesus chose Judas knowing his nature. Judas had a purpose. I would think that prior to Satan entering Judas, his sins were really not much different than the other apostles. If covetousness kept people out of heaven, then heaven would be void of Christians, and might I be so bold to say especially preachers. That judgment would be without mercy for those who show no mercy. Be very careful in how you judge anyone, even Judas for as we judge, so shall we be judged.

(Edited )

God Bless!

**

 

[Randy_Carson]

One of our catechist, who is a convert, still hangs onto the Protestant belief of "once saved, always saved. When challenged she provide a lot of on-line Protestant information. Where can I find Catholic information to refute this?

**Once Saved, Always Saved? **
By Jason Evert
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

 

[emeraldisle]

Both of you might do good to remember that all these things happened to fulfill prophesy that the Creator had planned to be fulfilled at this time. **Jesus chose Judas, not the other way around. **Jesus knew them all, before He picked them.

Yes Jesus chose Judas and He said this about him;

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:70-71

Is Jesus telling us a lie??

.

 

[Philthy]

emeraldisle;:

A person is saved when they are in Christ, salvation is only found in Christ.

Correct. I think we can all agree that people go from being NOT “in Christ” to being “in Christ” - we refer to it as being born again, saved, or any other terms that refer to the adoption into the family of God through Christ. The question in this thread is whether you can at one point in time (ie not in eternity) be “in Christ” and at a subsequent time NOT be “in Christ”. Can you be “cut off” or “severed” from the body of Christ?

The people Paul referred to in his letter to the Galatians were severed from Christ for seeking to be justified by the law.

I take it that you believe that they were at one point in time “in Christ” and then were “severed” from Him because after beginning with the Spirit(love) they ended with the flesh(law)? This positition refutes OSAS. Did you mean to do that? In order to be severed, you must have at first been attached - like the brances are severed from the vine which they previously were attached to.

They were trying to earn there salvation and so they were severed from Christ. When they were severed from Christ they lost the salvation that they had which is only found in Christ.

Oh, OK. You do reject OSAS. Perhaps I am confusing you with someone else. Is there anyone here who is an OSAS proponent or are we all simply agreeing with one another?
Agreeing is fine, of course…

 

[Philthy]

]

Both of you might do good to remember that all these things happened to fulfill prophesy that the Creator had planned to be fulfilled at this time. Jesus chose Judas…sold with thirty silver coins…be pierced by nail…die on the Cross. All of these were foretold long before the birth of Jesus Christ. God had chosen Judas Iscariot to fulfill all those prophesy. Please keep in mind that Judas was predestined to be a betrayer

I would be a little careful about how you are presenting things here, friend. A prophecy is made with the knowledge of future events before they occur. The events themselves do not occur IN ORDER TO FULFILL THE PROPHECY in the strictest sense, they occur as all other events occur, only they were events that were revealed prior to their occurance. They will occur according to the prophecy, but not “in order to fulfill it”.
Your presentation of events being “foretold” and “predestined” has the possibility of being misunderstood. When you say that God “had chosen” Judas and that he was “predestined” to be a betrayer, two possibilities present themselves:

1. God CAUSED Judas to betray Christ; or you mean that
2. God did not obviate Judas’ free will and did not cause Judas to betray Christ but merely granted knowledge of Judas’ future choice to prophets who revealed what the future held.

See the difference?