Once Saved, Always Saved?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rogue13
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rogue13

Guest
I have 4 questions for those who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS). They are:
  1. Can someone think they are saved, yet not really be saved? Yes or no?
  2. Was the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) in a state of justification (saved) before he left his father’s household? Yes or no?
  3. Was the Prodigal Son in a state of justification (saved) after he left his father’s household? Yes or no?
  4. Was the Prodigal Son in a state of justification (saved) after he returned to his father’s household? Yes or no?
 
Good questions. Because I wan’t to track this thread, I’d like to add another question.
  1. Is someone saved while they are a part of the vine (in John 15) and are they still saved after they’ve been cut from the vine and thrown into the fire?
 
I was raised a Fundamentalist, and the once saved always saved was a key doctrine. I have been Catholic for four and a half years, and I must say that it is nearly impossible to change the thinking of the once saved always saved group. They will tell you that a person can believe he is saved but is not. That, however, in their eyes,does not negate the fact that a person who is truly saved will indeed go to Heaven and live eternally with God. They would also say that the Prodigal Son was an example of a person who is not saved, has a conversion during a self inflicted trial, and was saved forever once he repented and returned to God. It’s very difficult to break through such a mindset. They use as their Biblical “proof” St Paul’s declaration that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, in Romans chapter 8. They interpret Hebrews 6:4 this way–the person never really truly was enlightened in the first place. The Fundamentalists have a convoluted manner of piecing parts of Scripture to maintain their doctrines. 🤷
 
They would also say that the Prodigal Son was an example of a person who is not saved, has a conversion during a self inflicted trial, and was saved forever once he repented and returned to God. It’s very difficult to break through such a mindset.
I agree with your assessment. I’m usually greeted with silence when I point out the father said, “My son was dead, but is now alive again.”, then the excuse, “well, the parable is only an analogy”. You can’t take it literally.
They use as their Biblical “proof” St Paul’s declaration that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, in Romans chapter 8. They interpret Hebrews 6:4 this way–the person never really truly was enlightened in the first place. The Fundamentalists have a convoluted manner of piecing parts of Scripture to maintain their doctrines. 🤷
I agree. But did you notice personal sin is not among the llist in Romans 8 of “things that won’t take us out of God’s hands” department? :hmmm:
 
They tend to ignore many paasages like this from Ezekiel:

Answer them: As I live, says the Lord GOD, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man’s conversion, that he may live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! Why should you die, O house of Israel?
12
As for you, son of man, tell your countrymen: The virtue which a man has practiced will not save him on the day that he sins; neither will the wickedness that a man has done bring about his downfall on the day that he turns from his wickedness (nor can the virtuous man, when he sins, remain alive).
13
Though I say to the virtuous man that he shall surely live, if he then presumes on his virtue and does wrong, none of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered; because of the wrong he has done, he shall die.
14
And though I say to the wicked man that he shall surely die, if he turns away from his sin and does what is right and just,
15
giving back pledges, restoring stolen goods, living by the statutes that bring life, and doing no wrong, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16
None of the sins he committed shall be held against him; he has done what is right and just, he shall surely live.
17
Yet your countrymen say, “The way of the LORD is not fair!”; but it is their way that is not fair.
18
When a virtuous man turns away from what is right and does wrong, he shall die for it.
19
But when a wicked man turns away from wickedness and does what is right and just, because of this he shall live.
20
And still you say, “The way of the LORD is not fair!”? I will judge every one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel.
21
 
Pillar of Fire Pillar of Truth! Such a good explanation of this:

**What You Must Do to Be Saved **
Best of all, the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God (CCC 1727). Our initial forgiveness and justification are not things we “earn” (CCC 2010). Jesus is the mediator who bridged the gap of sin that separates us from God (1 Tim. 2:5); he bridged it by dying for us. He has chosen to make us partners in the plan of salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).

The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what “Bible Christians” teach; see Jas. 2:24).

When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).

Even though only God’s grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6–7, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10, Matt. 25:34–40).

Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do the things I command?” (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21–23, 19:16–21).

We do not “earn” our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8–9, Rom. 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:8–9).

Paul said, “God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work” (Phil. 2:13). John explained that “the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, ‘I know him,’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:3–4, 3:19–24, 5:3–4).

Since no gift can be forced on the recipient—gifts always can be rejected—even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (John 15:5–6, Rom. 11:22–23, 1 Cor. 15:1–2; CCC 1854–1863). Paul tells us, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23).

Read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven (see, for example, 1 Cor. 6:9–10, Gal. 5:19–21).

Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God “will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness” (Rom. 2:6–8).

Sins are nothing but evil works (CCC 1849–1850). We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works. Every saint has known that the best way to keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the Eucharist first of all), and charitable acts.

Are You Guaranteed Heaven?
Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as “their personal Lord and Savior.” The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.

Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: “If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3–4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him” (2 Tim. 2:11–12).

If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19–24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Note that Paul includes an important condition: “provided you remain in his kindness.” He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, “Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11–12).

If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been “saved,” you should say, “I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.”
 
it depends who’s choice it is and if they will/can change their mind about it really.
 
I have 4 questions for those who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS). They are:
  1. Can someone think they are saved, yet not really be saved? Yes or no?
  2. Was the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) in a state of justification (saved) before he left his father’s household? Yes or no?
  3. Was the Prodigal Son in a state of justification (saved) after he left his father’s household? Yes or no?
  4. Was the Prodigal Son in a state of justification (saved) after he returned to his father’s household? Yes or no?

**Parables are figurative - doctrines try not to be figurative. So parables are a bad foundation for doctrinal debates & positions. In any case, the parable of the PS is totally irrelevant to soteriology, with or without OSAS: just as it is irrelevant to fly-fishing or cooking. **​

 

**Parables are figurative - doctrines try not to be figurative. So parables are a bad foundation for doctrinal debates & positions. In any case, the parable of the PS is totally irrelevant to soteriology, with or without OSAS: just as it is irrelevant to fly-fishing or cooking. **​

First of all, pretend I’m an idiot and don’t know exactly what soteriology means. Can you explain it?😉

But to your point, you have to be careful with this statement, for there are some very profound teachings in parables, after all, that’s how Jesus often taught.

So yes, you can’t take all of every parable literally, like the fact that at the end of the world, we will be rounded up into pens like sheep and goats are, there are pearls of wisdom there.

In the PS, the Jews (and future Christians) would have recognized the facts that
  • The son had an inheritance.
  • He squandered it. This means something to Jews and Christians alike.
  • He was received back into the family for no other reason then that he repented and his Father loves him.
Someone who believes in OSAS would have trouble accepting this, but they would do well to learn from this lesson.
 
So if we’re not to take parables literally then all that stuff in John 2 about destroying this temple means nothing to us as Christians. Hmm, funny, I thought Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that our faith hinged on that temple being rebuilt.
 
So if we’re not to take parables literally then all that stuff in John 2 about destroying this temple means nothing to us as Christians. Hmm, funny, I thought Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that our faith hinged on that temple being rebuilt.
You realize that the temple Jesus was talking about was His body right? He was destoryed and raised again in 3 days.

John 2:

19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
 
I think Gottle meant that we are not to use the *literal *words of the Parables to make doctrine.

If we were to take the Parable of the Prodigal Son literally, we (for instance) could use it to say that a repentant sinner must be given a robe, a ring, and a big ol’ dinner party.

But the *sense *of the parable does oppose OSAS. The prodigal takes his inheritance - which I interpret as his membership in God’s family, and thus his salvation - into a “far country” and “squanders” it.

He was a member of God’s family (the body of Christ) *before *he sinned, then threw that membership away by sinning, and finally, by his repentance, was accepted again (with joy!) by his Father.

That cancels the notion held by some OSAS believers that if you sin after being saved, that you were never really saved in the first place. (That’s one of the doctrines I rejected, which eventually led me to Catholicism.)

The preceding parable, of the “ninety and nine” sheep, shows the same thing. The wandering sheep was in the herd before he got lost, and was re-joined to the rest of the herd.

I’m pretty sure that some (if not most) of the OSAS folks do not believe that if you sin, you have not been saved. Like us Catholics, they believe that you have turned away from God, and can *renew *your salvation by repentance.

That’s the problem with short titles for doctrines. Taking them literally can lead to a lot of misinterpretations. Look how many non-Catholic Christians completely misunderstand “the Immaculate Conception!”

Heart of Jesus, aflame with love for us, have mercy on us.

Ruthie
 
… Look how many non-Catholic Christians completely misunderstand “the Immaculate Conception!”
That’s easy, Ruthie, C’mon!

Every good Catholic knows that the catch Franco Harris made against the Raiders in '71! Well, at least every good Catholic over 40! 😉
 

**Parables are figurative - doctrines try not to be figurative. So parables are a bad foundation for doctrinal debates & positions. In any case, the parable of the PS is totally irrelevant to soteriology, with or without OSAS: just as it is irrelevant to fly-fishing or cooking. **​

The Parable of the Prodigal Son has nothing to do with salvation? Quite a bold statement, eh?! As if there was something in God’s Word that was not concerned with salvation? Very interesting concept.

So, the fact that he was lost and is then found, doesn’t mean that he was separated from God and is now united to God? The fact that he was dead and is then alive “again” doesn’t mean that he was dead in sin and is now alive in grace?

The fact of the matter is, as was previously pointed out by NotWorthy and Phillipos, that parables provide a lot of good information that can indeed be applicable in a debate on doctrine. For example, the parable of the sower and the seed. The parable of the wheat and the tares. The parable of the talents. The parable of the two servants. And I could go on. The thought that parables have no relation to doctrine is, again, quite a bold assertion and I would love to see Gottle of Geer present some arguments to back up that statement.

The fact of the matter is, that believers in OSAS cannot answer those questions in a logically, biblically, and doctrinally-consistent manner. That could be why not a single Protestant has attempted to answer these questions after being put in two separate threads. Or, it is possible that not a single Protestant has seen them. In which case, I will attempt once more to get them in front of their eyes.
 
Good questions. Because I wan’t to track this thread, I’d like to add another question.
  1. Is someone saved while they are a part of the vine (in John 15) and are they still saved after they’ve been cut from the vine and thrown into the fire?
  1. If you are saved, yet while alive, has God already judged you? Y on N ?
 
  1. If you are saved, yet while alive, has God already judged you? Y on N ?
Yes and no. Since all of eternity is the eternal present for God, then, in an eternal sense, He has already judged us. However, in the sense that all of us time-bound exiles can better understand, God does not pronounce final judgment (headed for Heaven or Hell) on you until the end of your life.
 
That’s easy, Ruthie, C’mon!

Every good Catholic knows that the catch Franco Harris made against the Raiders in '71! Well, at least every good Catholic over 40! 😉
Actually it was called: The Immaculate Reception. And a darn good catch at that! 😃
 
I just browsed two Protestant study Bibles (one Evangelical, the other Calvinist) to see what they say specifically about the pericope in Luke 15:32 about the younger brother being “dead” and is now “alive” again. The silence of the footnotes in addressing this matter is deafening! Commentators from the OSAS perspective do not know how to respond to Jesus’ ending to this parable.
 

**… the parable of the PS is totally irrelevant to soteriology, with or without OSAS: just as it is irrelevant to fly-fishing or cooking. **​

I must respectfully disagree with your conclusions regarding parables. The dictionary defines a parable as: A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.

In the case of the parable of the Prodigal (wasteful) Son, the lesson is, from a Catholic perspective, if you squander your inheritance (i.e.,baptismal covenant), you will fall from Grace and you will be found dead in your trespasses and sins. Only by returning to the Father (i.e., repenting) will you be restored to new life. Therefore, I think that this parable has everything to do with soteriology (i.e., the doctrine of Salvation).

Also, when in doubt, remember the dictum: All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction and training in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3.16
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top