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Pwrlftr
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If you do a yahoo search for +prodigal +“eternal security” you will get over 2,600 hits.
It’s not like Calvin, Spurgeon, Hodges, Sproul, Boice, Piper, etc. never ran across that particular parable.
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It’s not like Calvin, Spurgeon, Hodges, Sproul, Boice, Piper, etc. never ran across that particular parable.
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NotWorthy
Guest
So, as a soon-to-be ex-Protestant, what is the best OSAS explanation of this parable. I’ve asked my nephew (a baptist youth minister) and he said the son never “lost his salvation.”.
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MGLechner
Guest
Very good. Since you took the time to do the research, could you please share with the rest of us what the great Protestant minds have written on this parable? (I am not being sarcastic when I refer to them as such) We would like to read what they have to say. Of course, brevity is essential. Just provide us with a thumb nail sketch of their interpretations. Thank you.
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hays1122
Guest
It’s interesting to me how many are in here basically saying that we won’t know if we’re saved till after we die. Yet in other threads Hitler is defended by someone saying that we have no right to say whether someone goes to heaven,purgatory or straight to Hell.
This sounds like you are willing to stand up for Hitler but not for non-catholics.
If being Catholic made a person more heaven bound then any one of another religion then why is there so much crime committed by just as many Catholics as anyone else.
Maybe I’m on another page so to speak,but I get the feeling that Catholics believe no one can be sure of their salvation.
This leaves me feeling like there is nothing to grasp at for assurance.
I cling to the Lord Jesus Christ because without him I am lost.
I don’t belong to the Catholic church because as a child I was brainwashed into believing they are wrong in every way shape or form.
And it’s not easy undoing something you were taught by the people God himself put in charge of your up bringing.
I have heard speakers on EWTN say that the Catholic church is the bridge between heaven and earth. Anyone who dies has to be Catholic to enter Heaven.
I don’t think you all know what your talking about anymore then I know what to believe.
This sounds like you are willing to stand up for Hitler but not for non-catholics.
If being Catholic made a person more heaven bound then any one of another religion then why is there so much crime committed by just as many Catholics as anyone else.
Maybe I’m on another page so to speak,but I get the feeling that Catholics believe no one can be sure of their salvation.
This leaves me feeling like there is nothing to grasp at for assurance.
I cling to the Lord Jesus Christ because without him I am lost.
I don’t belong to the Catholic church because as a child I was brainwashed into believing they are wrong in every way shape or form.
And it’s not easy undoing something you were taught by the people God himself put in charge of your up bringing.
I have heard speakers on EWTN say that the Catholic church is the bridge between heaven and earth. Anyone who dies has to be Catholic to enter Heaven.
I don’t think you all know what your talking about anymore then I know what to believe.
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NotWorthy
Guest
You may want to study what this phrase means in order to determine what the Church teaches. I don’t think you know what exactly the Church teaches.
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MGLechner
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MGLechner
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Pwrlftr
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I have no interest in defending the belief but wanted to point out that you can’t look in one or two places, not see the defense you were looking for and then claim the commentators from a OSAS perspective don’t know how to deal w/ the verse.
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Pwrlftr
Guest
I hadn’t really thought about this particular parable in the light of disproving the perseverance of the saints until I saw this thread.
The only trouble I see with it is, as the OP pointed out, the statement that the prodigal was “dead” and right now I don’t have a response.
Sorry.
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MGLechner
Guest
Not to belabor this point… it was not my intention to imply that I had exhausted all the sources regarding a Protestant reponse to the Parable of the Prodigal Son. If that is the way I came across, I apologize to everyone who reads and posts on this forum. What I was saying is that in my personal reading of commentaries and Study Bibles, I have yet to read anything that gives a cogent response to the the last verse of the parable in question. Peace.
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Pwrlftr
Guest
Well…it would appear I owe you a bit of an apology too. I have spent some time looking for a discussion on Luke 15:32 and there just isn’t much on it, at least from what I have found so far. I see several sites that use it to disprove the perseverance of the saints but not to much in the way of explaining why the death of the prodigal son (spiritual death?) isn’t a problem for the doctrine.
I haven’t exhausted all the sources either, and probably won’t spend too much more time on it but I haven’t seen an answer for you yet.
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MGLechner
Guest
It’s all good. I think we are working toward the same end. However, if I may approach this subject from the perspective of those who adhere to the doctrine of the Perserverance of the Saints (the technical name for the OSAS teaching), what do we find in scripture? How do they read it?
Romans 8.30 states, “Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” This appears to have a beginning, a middle and an end to the whole salvific act of God. This gives one the sense that God has a hedge around the true believer, and he or she will be perserved 'til all has been accomplished.
Paul concludes this part of his letter to the Romans with the beautiful doxology, “Who shall seperate us from the love of God…?” Paul, being a student in the Pharisaic rabbinical school, knew how to ask rhetorical questions that demanded a yes or no answer. For Paul, the answer was, “No one can seperate us from the love of God!”
Philippians 1.6 states that, “He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” For those who hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine, this verse gives them hope and confidence that they will indeed be with their Lord when he returns in Glory.
One more example. In 1 Corinthians 1.8-9 we read, “…who will also confirm you blameless to the end in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Those who cling to the doctrine of the Perserverance of the Saints don’t do it just to spite us Catholics. Quite to the contrary. They do it because according to their reading of sacred scripture, God is faithful to his promises and will not go back on them.
Now, as I stated above, I am merely presenting their views so that we can gain some objectivity when it comes to understanding why they hold to this or that doctrine.
Granted, this does not answer the questions published by the original Poster of this thread about the Prodigal Son. And yet, for them, the doctrine of the Perserverance of the Saints does not stand or fall on the basis of this parable. For they are convinced of it by other passages of Holy Writ that seem to bolster their belief in the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.
Romans 8.30 states, “Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” This appears to have a beginning, a middle and an end to the whole salvific act of God. This gives one the sense that God has a hedge around the true believer, and he or she will be perserved 'til all has been accomplished.
Paul concludes this part of his letter to the Romans with the beautiful doxology, “Who shall seperate us from the love of God…?” Paul, being a student in the Pharisaic rabbinical school, knew how to ask rhetorical questions that demanded a yes or no answer. For Paul, the answer was, “No one can seperate us from the love of God!”
Philippians 1.6 states that, “He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.” For those who hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine, this verse gives them hope and confidence that they will indeed be with their Lord when he returns in Glory.
One more example. In 1 Corinthians 1.8-9 we read, “…who will also confirm you blameless to the end in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Those who cling to the doctrine of the Perserverance of the Saints don’t do it just to spite us Catholics. Quite to the contrary. They do it because according to their reading of sacred scripture, God is faithful to his promises and will not go back on them.
Now, as I stated above, I am merely presenting their views so that we can gain some objectivity when it comes to understanding why they hold to this or that doctrine.
Granted, this does not answer the questions published by the original Poster of this thread about the Prodigal Son. And yet, for them, the doctrine of the Perserverance of the Saints does not stand or fall on the basis of this parable. For they are convinced of it by other passages of Holy Writ that seem to bolster their belief in the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.
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benedictus2
Guest
The only reason a Catholic would be “more” heaven bound than any other would be because all the sacraments are available to him, the Eucharist most specially.
That we all sin is no question. But the sacraments that Christ gave us are a means of availing of that amazing grace. So in the Catholic Church there are more avenues of grace than just the Bible.
Christ built the Catholic Church and it is God’s family. The saints in heaven are members of His family that have already triumped. We on earth are the Church militant.
It is wonderful that you cling to Christ. Everyone should.
But that is not what is in question here. It is our understanding of how Christ effected salvaton.
Protestants (Evangelicals mainly) believe that once you have been born again, that is it. You are assured of heaven. But they do not take in to account the reality that "born again’ people sin even after being born again.
So to say that once you have proclaimed “Jesus as your Lord and saviour” you are assured of going to heaven is wrong.
We can lose grace and that is why we can never say that we are assured of heaven. However, there is a Great Hope. Christ left us His Church precisely so that none will be lost. So that through the sacraments we will continue to be re-freshed and that we can always start anew.
It will not be easy to sift through all the lies that you have been fed about the Church but it can be done. Lorraine Boettner’s and his like have led many into error. I believe he was guided by the evil spirit when he wrote.
Many protestants of different denominations have found the joy of what it is like to come home. And this is the overwhelming theme that runs through most of the convesion stories I have read. That feeling of having finally come home.
Christ did not leave us orphans with just a love letter(the Bible) for us to muddle our own way to salvation. He left us a family (the Catholic Church) of which He is the head.
Here are the links to Scott Hahn’s and Peter Kreft’s conversion stories.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0088.html
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/hauled-aboard.htm
I think you will be better able to hear it from someone who has been there done that.
From your vantage point that seems like terribly arrogant claim yet the the only reason the Church can claim that is because she is Christ’s Church. Christ promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against her and we believe in that promise.
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cradlecatholic4
Guest
To me, once saved always saved is an easy way for concluding that one can do what he/she wants without consequence. Will we not stand before Christ when we are called from this brief earthly life and be judged by Him? If we hold this as truth, then I have to ask, if we are once saved always saved why would there be a need for living a life of serving Him? I don’t believe that we can just say we believe and then continue living the life of sinfulness in out of our human weakness. If we say we believe in Him, then we have to change for Him. After all, scripture does tell us that the wages of sin is death. If we just say we believe and that we are saved forever, then why would there be a need to stand before Christ and be judged? If one concludes only non-believers are judged, then I again would ask why – did they ever have a chance at salvation to begin with if they didn’t believe?
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MGLechner
Guest
CC4 raises some interesting questions. I have a friend who is an ardent proponent of the OSAS doctrine. When I asked him if it was okay to “live like the devil and still make it to Heaven?” his response was:“No, no, that is where sanctification comes into play.” So, from their perspective, one is held accountable for his or her actions. But it has more to do with rewards in Heaven. If you live a reckless life, and you are “Born Again,” you will still go to Heaven; but you will not receive a diadem in your crown. However, if you live a life of holiness and listen closely to the directions and guidance of the Holy Spirit, then you will recieve many jewels in your crown. What I find curious about this whole argument is that Evangelicals who hold to OSAS believe that you cannot earn your Salvation. But apparently Sanctification is a whole different kettle of fish. Apparently you can earn rewards for living a sanctified life.
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benedictus2
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Which really does not address the point that “nothing unclean will enter heaven”.
So that means you can sin with boldness and still be clean.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to decieve”.
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Ruthie
Guest
I don’t see any contradiction in this. Surely even the believers in the literal meaning of OSAS can see that Hitler could have committed himself to Jesus in the instant between the trigger pull and his death. (Unless, of course, they hold that you must physically say so.) So how can we know? We weren’t there, and don’t know Hitler’s mind. We can only guess. And guessing out loud is, essentially, gossip.
The phrase “mortal sin” is flung around a lot, but the truth is that only God, ultimately, can judge whether a person has committed it or not. I can sit down and analyze myself as to whether or not I committed a grave sin with full knowledge and full consent (which is what makes a sin mortal); and the priest who hears my confession, with all his experience, can maybe judge better. But Jesus is the only one who *really *has full knowledge. (1Cor 13:12)
We can see if a person is in grave sin. That’s all we can see.
No, I don’t walk around worrying about whether or not I am saved. I don’t have “Catholic guilt.” What I do have is the Sacraments. Through them, I can “keep clean” and draw ever closer to God.
The first and biggest step in salvation is to believe in Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God, who died and was resurrected. That is a truth that all real Christians share, whatever name is on their church.
A very few hold that that’s all it takes. But that view is rarer than we Catholics may think.
Jesus, guard us against sin,
Ruthie
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kimmielittle
Guest
IMHO, I don’t see how the concept of OSAS can exist, without flying in the face of The Whole of the Bible’s teachings. It seems insane, to me, to ignore the many teachings of the Bible, to justify a belief based one small misinterpreted part. I live in what’s called “The Bible Belt” where some preachers take a passage of the Bible and interpret it to mean “They are to handle venomous snakes, because They are protected”. I might be wrong, but I think that passage means - when faced with serpents, in ME you will find protection…kinda like that Boy Daniel, in the lions den. I don’t think it’s calling anyone to be a fool.
This is how I defend against those who try to "turn me’.
I ask them:
Are Angels - Not in God’s Grace?
They live in Heaven.
Didn’t one fall from Gods Grace.?
Isn’t he living in hel* now.?
He was in His Father’s House
He left His Father’s House
He’s a gonner
He can’t return
Now, I don’t wanna test the Prodigal Son’s departure/return out ( I don’t think Jesus wants me to be a fool ). Jesus will rejoice, and so will I, at their return. I won’t be like the other son, cause that parable teaches two lessons.
To say it short…If an Angel can fall…ALL humankind can…and can only be retrieved by returning…AND that is the Saving Grace of Jesus.
Did I get this right.?
This is how I defend against those who try to "turn me’.
I ask them:
Are Angels - Not in God’s Grace?
They live in Heaven.
Didn’t one fall from Gods Grace.?
Isn’t he living in hel* now.?
He was in His Father’s House
He left His Father’s House
He’s a gonner
He can’t return
Now, I don’t wanna test the Prodigal Son’s departure/return out ( I don’t think Jesus wants me to be a fool ). Jesus will rejoice, and so will I, at their return. I won’t be like the other son, cause that parable teaches two lessons.
To say it short…If an Angel can fall…ALL humankind can…and can only be retrieved by returning…AND that is the Saving Grace of Jesus.
Did I get this right.?
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hays1122
Guest
When I see this statement,“What I do have is the Sacraments. Through them, I can “keep clean” and draw ever closer to God.”
I can’t help but think of all those priests who fell into Satan’s snare. They surely had the Sacraments at all times. Some of them administered the Sacraments to people just like you.
If the Sacraments didn’t keep them from sin,when they were as close to them as anyone can be,how can you feel so secure in saying,“Through them, I can “keep clean” and draw ever closer to God.” ?
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NotWorthy
Guest
The Sacraments can “pull” you closer to God, but you have to be a willing recipient of that pull.
Think of the Sacraments as a life-line thrown into the water to save a drowning person. Even through the line may be thrown right at you, you still have to grab ahold of it.
Incidentally, the Sacraments are equally valid even when offered up by a priest steeped in the worst of sins.
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