Once Saved, Always Saved?

[DD2007]

Anyone who interprets this to mean that they have been saved without yielding to righteousness for sanctification is decieving themselves. Paul is saying that the return you get from living in righteousness is eternal life. He is also pointing out that if you sin, you die (i.e, don’t get internal life)

Right. However, if you don’t sin you can have assurance that you are indeed one of the elect.

So both you and the Baptists are correct in their arguments. You guys just confuse each other by always going about it the wrong way and talking about the wrong themes.

1. There is an Elect that will be saved. = True
2. We are told to be obediant to God or we will perish. = True

So, it all boils down to, who are the elect, and how do you know if you are one of them or not?

etc…

The New Testament expounds on these things in detail. It should be read through and studied in detail.

So, we should trust in God and do our best to do His will. If we actually want to do that then we are blessed.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

I have 4 questions for those who believe in Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS). They are:

1. Can someone think they are saved, yet not really be saved? Yes or no?
2. Was the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) in a state of justification (saved) before he left his father’s household? Yes or no?
3. Was the Prodigal Son in a state of justification (saved) after he left his father’s household? Yes or no?
4. Was the Prodigal Son in a state of justification (saved) after he returned to his father’s household? Yes or no?

1 & 4, definitely yes.

For 2 & 3 you might hear either yes or no from an OSAS believer, but I am inclined to agree with John Calvin, John Gill, C.H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, John Piper, & John MacArthur and say no.

 

[paul_c]

Right. However, if you don’t sin you can have assurance that you are indeed one of the elect.

So both you and the Baptists are correct in their arguments. You guys just confuse each other by always going about it the wrong way and talking about the wrong themes.

1. There is an Elect that will be saved. = True
2. We are told to be obediant to God or we will perish. = True

So, it all boils down to, who are the elect, and how do you know if you are one of them or not?

etc…

The New Testament expounds on these things in detail. It should be read through and studied in detail.

So, we should trust in God and do our best to do His will. If we actually want to do that then we are blessed.

I’m surprised you think the Baptists are in agreement with the Catholics on Salvation, but I guess it may depend on which Baptists.

You will never know if you are “elect” until you die. And your 'election" requires you to persevere in the faith until you die because if your point 2 above, if you are disobedient at any point, you will perish. Only when the game is over will we know if we have been awarded Eternal life.

 

[NotWorthy]

1 & 4, definitely yes.

For 2 & 3 you might hear either yes or no from an OSAS believer, but I am inclined to agree with John Calvin, John Gill, C.H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, John Piper, & John MacArthur and say no.

That’s interesting. He was a son of the Father and his inheritance was a gift freely given, but this does not equate to being saved?!?!?

Interesting.

 

[DD2007]

I’m surprised you think the Baptists are in agreement with the Catholics on Salvation, but I guess it may depend on which Baptists.

You will never know if you are “elect” until you die. And your 'election" requires you to persevere in the faith until you die because if your point 2 above, if you are disobedient at any point, you will perish. Only when the game is over will we know if we have been awarded Eternal life.

Baptists and Catholics are certainly not in agreement on salvation. I am neither. But I have been both at one time or another and I can assure you they don’t agree.

I was pointing out that you guys always go a few pointless rounds with the OSAS argument and miss the point that the Baptists are trying to explain the elect. So they are right. But it’s understandable because many Baptists are also missing the point that they are trying to explain the elect! So, what can you do?

What you guys should be doing is asking them how they know they are an elect. Instead, many of you try to argue against an elect, whether you know that or not it sounds like you are doing that. Then it looks like Catholics are wrong because they don’t believe in an elect when in reality you are allowed to choose either Thomism ( basic predestination) or Molinism (free will sort of) by the Vatican. These are the counterparts to the protestant’s Calvinism (basic predestination) and Arminianism (free will sort of). So the Baptist idea of OSAS is rooted in Calvinistic, Thomistic thought.

So stop arguing against the elect because you will get nowhere. It is biblical and that is easily proven. You should focus on how they are certain that they are the elect. Don’t say things like are you certain you won’t fall away because they’ll just tell you the saved (elect) can’t fall away permanently and that is true because they are predestined by God to salvation!

So if you focus on how they are certain they are part of the elect the conversation will then go to new and interesting places that it usually doesn’t because it gets stuck in the mud of misunderstanding on both parts.

 

[paul_c]

Baptists and Catholics are certainly not in agreement on salvation. I am neither. But I have been both at one time or another and I can assure you they don’t agree.

I was pointing out that you guys always go a few pointless rounds with the OSAS argument and miss the point that the Baptists are trying to explain the elect. So they are right. But it’s understandable because many Baptists are also missing the point that they are trying to explain the elect! So, what can you do?

What you guys should be doing is asking them how they know they are an elect. Instead, many of you try to argue against an elect, whether you know that or not it sounds like you are doing that. Then it looks like Catholics are wrong because they don’t believe in an elect when in reality you are allowed to choose either Thomism ( basic predestination) or Molinism (free will sort of) by the Vatican. These are the counterparts to the protestant’s Calvinism (basic predestination) and Arminianism (free will sort of). So the Baptist idea of OSAS is rooted in Calvinistic, Thomistic thought.

So stop arguing against the elect because you will get nowhere. It is biblical and that is easily proven. You should focus on how they are certain that they are the elect. Don’t say things like are you certain you won’t fall away because they’ll just tell you the saved (elect) can’t fall away permanently and that is true because they are predestined by God to salvation!

So if you focus on how they are certain they are part of the elect the conversation will then go to new and interesting places that it usually doesn’t because it gets stuck in the mud of misunderstanding on both parts.

Its an interesting perspective. And I agree that the Catholic position is a balance of predestination and man’s free will. What is your personal perspective on this issue?

 

[DD2007]

Its an interesting perspective. And I agree that the Catholic position is a balance of predestination and man’s free will. What is your personal perspective on this issue?

I believe man is saved by the election of God. In other words by the grace of God through the faith in Jesus Christ that God gives him by grace. However, I don’t promote the OSAS view because it is simply a bad way to describe election.

 

[NotWorthy]

I believe man is saved by the election of God. In other words by the grace of God through the faith in Jesus Christ that God gives him by grace. However, I don’t promote the OSAS view because it is simply a bad way to describe election.

So… God is NOT a God of Mercy and Judgment, but a God of the Lottery? Or is He simply the Grand Puppeteer? You I’ll make elect, but you I’ll just let burn in hell.

Interesting indeed.

I was under the impression that God wishes all of us to go to heaven. He offers us the Graces to get to heaven. We just don’t choose to receive those graces. Our free-will is integral to our making it to heaven.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

That’s interesting. He was a son of the Father and his inheritance was a gift freely given, but this does not equate to being saved?!?!?

Interesting.

God is a Father in more ways then one. In different ways He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of Adam, of all those who are born again, & of all mankind. Every person in the world is, in a certain way, a child of God; He is the Author & Source of our being. He formed us in our mothers’ wombs similarly to how He formed Adam from the dust. As the prophet Malachy said:

Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? (Mal 2:10)

I think this is the sense in which Christ was referring to God as the Father of a sinner. And the prodigal son was a sinner. Even while he was still at home his desire was to take the good gifts his Father would give him, and then get as far away as possible. He was a lover of pleasure more than God. He showed none of the signs of being born of the spirit that we read of in I John 3:9 & Galatians 5.

As far as God giving him an inheritance, have you ever noticed God giving blessings to the unsaved? The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. The son wanted money so he could spend it on wine & women, and God gave it to him. His heart was with the world and his treasure was there also. This is not the inheritance that Christians seek. Our inheritance is imperishable & incorruptible; eternal life with our Father in heaven.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think this is the sense in which Christ was referring to God as the Father of a sinner. And the prodigal son was a sinner. Even while he was still at home his desire was to take the good gifts his Father would give him, and then get as far away as possible. He was a lover of pleasure more than God. He showed none of the signs of being born of the spirit that we read of in I John 3:9 & Galatians 5.

As far as God giving him an inheritance, have you ever noticed God giving blessings to the unsaved? The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. The son wanted money so he could spend it on wine & women, and God gave it to him. His heart was with the world and his treasure was there also. This is not the inheritance that Christians seek. Our inheritance is imperishable & incorruptible; eternal life with our Father in heaven.

Then you are missing the sense of the three parables that Jesus tells in Luke 15.

The three celebrations - the found sheep, the found coin, and the found son - are all talking of the same thing - Salvation. How many times does Jesus talk of Salvation as Life. And here is the Father saying, “My son was dead and has come to life again…” (paraphrasing)

 

[DD2007]

So… God is NOT a God of Mercy and Judgment, but a God of the Lottery? Or is He simply the Grand Puppeteer? You I’ll make elect, but you I’ll just let burn in hell.

Interesting indeed.

I was under the impression that God wishes all of us to go to heaven. He offers us the Graces to get to heaven. We just don’t choose to receive those graces. Our free-will is integral to our making it to heaven.

Interesting indeed.

I hold the Augustinian view. Held by these:

St. Augustine
St. Thomas Aquinas
Martin Luther
John Calvin
Johnathan Edwards

It’s not as simple as it seems. Even though it is simple. Just trust in God. That’s all there is to it.

Everyone deserves hell already. Some have been saved from it by the mercy and grace of God. For him to let you have what you deserve isn’t evil it’s justice. However He is a God of Mercy and Justice.

 

[Ethan_Enoch]

Then you are missing the sense of the three parables that Jesus tells in Luke 15.

The three celebrations - the found sheep, the found coin, and the found son - are all talking of the same thing - Salvation. How many times does Jesus talk of Salvation as Life. And here is the Father saying, “My son was dead and has come to life again…” (paraphrasing)

The context of Jesus telling this parable is Him justifying His associating with all the sinners who were flocking unto Him. Do you think all these people were formerly justified but had fallen from grace? God rejoices over every sinner that repents, not just lapsed Christians.

 

[MGLechner]

OSAS is just another way to describe the elect. There is certainly an elect that is talked about much in scripture. For the Elect there will not be damnation. They have been chosen by God to be His people and nothing can stop that. So in essence yes, OSAS is true.

The kicker is who are the elect?

Another phrase for the “Elect” would be the “Chosen Ones,” which is a reference to the Jewish people.

 

[DD2007]

Another phrase for the “Elect” would be the “Chosen Ones,” which is a reference to the Jewish people.

They were / are indeed an example of a chosen people. They are God’s chosen people. However, he has grafted some elect gentiles into the family tree.

 

[NotWorthy]

Interesting indeed.

I hold the Augustinian view. Held by these:

St. Augustine
St. Thomas Aquinas
Martin Luther
John Calvin
Johnathan Edwards

Methinks you are lumping in St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquina’s idea of Pre-destination (something we all have) with the others’ idea of what the Church calls double Pre-destination.

It’s not as simple as it seems. Even though it is simple. Just trust in God. That’s all there is to it.

Everyone deserves hell already. Some have been saved from it by the mercy and grace of God. For him to let you have what you deserve isn’t evil it’s justice. However He is a God of Mercy and Justice.

You’ve simply described the God of Lottery.

All you’ve shown me is that God is like a kid who plays with toy soldiers and determines the winner before he even puts the soldiers on the floor.

 

[MGLechner]

They were / are indeed an example of a chosen people. They are God’s chosen people. However, he has grafted some elect gentiles into the family tree.

Very true. As a matter of fact, I was about to edit my post by adding that the “Chosen” are those elected for Salvation. On this I think both St. Augustine and John Calvin would agree.

 

[NotWorthy]

The context of Jesus telling this parable is Him justifying His associating with all the sinners who were flocking unto Him. Do you think all these people were formerly justified but had fallen from grace? God rejoices over every sinner that repents, not just lapsed Christians.

No, I think all these celebrations are people gaining their salvation, whether for the first time or for the umpteenth time.

Jesus’ celebration is not for him associating with sinners. Notice, the first two celebrations are for something that was lost, but is now found. Through Adam and Eve, we lost our Sanctifying Grace. Through the work of the Good Shepherd, it has been found!

 

[NotWorthy]

They were / are indeed an example of a chosen people. They are God’s chosen people. However, he has grafted some elect gentiles into the family tree.

And He has pruned them. He pruned some of the Jews and he prunes those that don’t heed St. Paul’s words in Romans.

Notice, one can only prune something from the vine that it is attached. Jesus tells us that HE is this Vine.

 

[MGLechner]

Methinks you are lumping in St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquina’s idea of Pre-destination (something we all have) with the others’ idea of what the Church calls double Pre-destination.

You’ve simply described the God of Lottery.

All you’ve shown me is that God is like a kid who plays with toy soldiers and determines the winner before he even puts the soldiers on the floor.

I think “Double Predestination” is an misnomer. If I understand Calvin correctly (I do not pretend to be an expert on Reformed Theology), what Calvin taught is that before the foundation of the world, God chose, (elected) those who would (by the benefit of his glorious Grace) be Saved. While those who were not predestined for salvation would be left in a state of reprobation, and would not be numbered among the elect. If one is not counted as one of the elect, it does not require he or she be predestined to this state, it is merely a process of being left in your fleshly, fallen condition. If you are not one of the chosen, then you will go to hell.

 

[DD2007]

Methinks you are lumping in St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquina’s idea of Pre-destination (something we all have) with the others’ idea of what the Church calls double Pre-destination.

You’ve simply described the God of Lottery.

All you’ve shown me is that God is like a kid who plays with toy soldiers and determines the winner before he even puts the soldiers on the floor.

Ephesians 1:3-6 RSV (We are predestined before we are born.)

3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
[4] even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
[5] He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
[6] to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Romans 9:13-24 (There is no injustice on the part of God.)

[13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
[15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
[16] So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.”
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?”
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Who are we to question the will of God? Who are we to put ourselves in judgement of God? Why would we think that we in our fallen state could ever do anything that could possibly please Him? He loves us and we are saved only by His grace through the faith given us in Jesus Christ who atoned for ours sins and is our savior. We all deserve hell. We should be thankful that He has provided a means for us to avoid punishment even though we don’t deserve one. We shouldn’t sit in judgement of God and say that His work isn’t good enough and His will is flawed.