Once Saved, Always Saved?

[DD2007]

I think “Double Predestination” is an misnomer. If I understand Calvin correctly (I do not pretend to be an expert on Reformed Theology), what Calvin taught is that before the foundation of the world, God chose, (elected) those who would (by the benefit of his glorious Grace) be Saved. While those who were not predestined for salvation would be left in a state of reprobation, and would not be numbered among the elect. If one is not counted as one of the elect, it does not require he or she be predestined to this state, it is merely a process of being left in your fleshly, fallen condition. If you are not one of the chosen, then you will go to hell.

Correct. Actually Luther taught that first and Calvin is just mainly credited with it because Luther’s followers changed the doctrine a little more than Calvin’s did.

However, Augustine taught it in detail first as he believed it is what Paul taught in the New Testament. Augustine taught it against the Pelagians who thought we could save ourselves. Aguinas also espoused the view as well and it became what is known as Thomism.

 

[MGLechner]

Ephesians 1:3-6 RSV (We are predestined before we are born.)

3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
[4] even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
[5] He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
[6] to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Romans 9:13-24 (There is no injustice on the part of God.)

[13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
[15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
[16] So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.”
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?”
[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Who are we to question the will of God? Who are we to put ourselves in judgement of God? Why would we think that we in our fallen state could ever do anything that could possibly please Him? He loves us and we are saved only by His grace through the faith given us in Jesus Christ who atoned for ours sins and is our savior. We all deserve hell. We should be thankful that He has provided a means for us to avoid punishment even though we don’t deserve one. We shouldn’t sit in judgement of God and say that His work isn’t good enough and His will is flawed.

Amen! Well put, and well stated! After all, God has chosen us, not we have chosen God! Brilliantly stated! Kudos!

 

[MGLechner]

However, Augustine taught it in detail first as he believed it is what Paul taught in the New Testament. Augustine taught it against the Pelagians who thought we could save ourselves. Aguinas also espoused the view as well and it became what is known as Thomism.

Yes, St. Augustine taught the doctrine of Divine Election (Predestination). That is because, St. Augustine was a brilliant theologian!!!

 

[MGLechner]

GIVING CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE, ALSO I HIT THE WRONG BUTTON WHEN TRYING TO EDIT THE ABOVE POST! I AM WACKO! DD2007 Wrote: However, Augustine taught it in detail first as he believed it is what Paul taught in the New Testament. Augustine taught it against the Pelagians who thought we could save ourselves. Aguinas also espoused the view as well and it became what is known as Thomism.

Yes, St. Augustine taught the doctrine of Divine Election (Predestination). That is because, St. Augustine was a brilliant theologian!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

I think “Double Predestination” is an misnomer. If I understand Calvin correctly (I do not pretend to be an expert on Reformed Theology), what Calvin taught is that before the foundation of the world, God chose, (elected) those who would (by the benefit of his glorious Grace) be Saved. While those who were not predestined for salvation would be left in a state of reprobation, and would not be numbered among the elect. If one is not counted as one of the elect, it does not require he or she be predestined to this state, it is merely a process of being left in your fleshly, fallen condition.** If you are not one of the chosen, then you will go to hell**.

These two statements diametrically oppose one another. God knows all of us, even before He formed us in the womb. He knows all the hairs on our head. If in this knowledge, He simply doesn’t choose us for Heaven, then He knowingly abandons us to the pains of hell.

We are merely puppets dancing to His music.

That’s sad.

 

[NotWorthy]

Who are we to question the will of God? Who are we to put ourselves in judgement of God? Why would we think that we in our fallen state could ever do anything that could possibly please Him? He loves us and we are saved only by His grace through the faith given us in Jesus Christ who atoned for ours sins and is our savior. We all deserve hell. We should be thankful that He has provided a means for us to avoid punishment even though we don’t deserve one. We shouldn’t sit in judgement of God and say that His work isn’t good enough and His will is flawed.

I’m not questioning the will of God, simply your interpretation. You rightly site that God pre-destines us to be children of God. But being a child of God does not mean one will get to heaven, will it?

 

[Chancellare]

1. If you are saved, yet while alive, has God already judged you? Y on N ?

The best additional question so far.

 

[kimmielittle]

Questions:

Could the ‘elect’ be referring to His Host of Angels.? Already in Heaven.

If there is an ‘elect’ on earth …why give us His Son.?

 

[paul_c]

There are a lot of interlocking parts here that need to be integrated:

1. God created every person on earth in a specific way to meet a specific purpose in his plan.
2. God also gave every man free will, the ability to reason, and a conscience to keep him on the right path.
3. Jesus, in his earthly ministry, taught extensively about personal morality. He said in answer to the Rich man in Mt 19, that to gain eternal life, you had to follow the commandments. Later (Mt 22) he summarized those commandments into two simple statements: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.
4. Paul talks extensively about requiring Faith to be saved but he also says that the greatest of the virtues is love (1Cor 13) and that if you had faith enough to move mountains, but did not have love, you would be nothing.
5. James (2) says that Faith without works is dead.

Finally, in describing the last judgement Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46

: When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This direct quote from Jesus has many major theological points.

1. it established that there will be a last judgement at the end of time and that Jesus will preside.
2. it states clearly that there is a heaven and a hell
3. It states that the criteria for the election to heaven or condemnation to hell is works of love, not faith alone. It is clear that each individual has to perform or perish. This is consistent witth the rest of the gospel
4. It also said " 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." so it was part of the initial plan and those that are saved are those blessed by the Father.

This dovetails nicely with Catholic theology (as you would expect). God made a plan at the beginning of time. Man was made in such a way that he would execute it. While no man is capable of thwarting God’s will, he still has responsibility to perform his duties in order to be saved. While it still remains somewhat unclear how God make a plan and that man still has a choice, let it be said that while it is mysterious to us, it is clear that this is how it works. Man must persist until the end, doing good works, but is still dependend on God for salvation.

 

[DD2007]

These two statements diametrically oppose one another. God knows all of us, even before He formed us in the womb. He knows all the hairs on our head. If in this knowledge, He simply doesn’t choose us for Heaven, then He knowingly abandons us to the pains of hell.

We are merely puppets dancing to His music.

That’s sad.

We are fallen creatures. We deserve hell. He chooses some and gives them the grace to salvation even though none of us deserve it. The rest he leaves to their own devices and they choose hell on their own because it.

From all the revelation we have this looks like it is the case. Jesus talked about hell quite a lot so it does apparently exist.

So, I think there is a misunderstanding in your idea of free will. Human beings can do a lot of things on their own. They just cannot do anything by their own power that can earn them the right to be saved. Salvation is only by the grace of God through faith. Faith is also of grace or it would come from a human and then merit salvation. We know that isn’t the case because the scriptures teach against that and the Church has long defeated the Pelagian heresy which states that man has the ability to save himself.

So the only acceptable things for a Christian to believe in regards to this is:

1. The Augustinian view - Man is predestined simply becasue of the good will of God.
2. The Semi-Pelagian view - Man is predestined by God because God saw something in man he thought might be ok so in effect man cooperates with grace.

You as a Catholic are free to hold either one howevr the modern Catholic Church holds mainly the semi-Pelagian view. But that has not always been the case.

The full pelagian view is contrary to scripture and is considered by all Christians to be heresy as it maintains that grace is not necessary for salvation.

I hold the Augustinian view.

I think that the sheer fact that Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards all great theologians all in agreement on this point is certainly worth a look.

 

[DD2007]

Questions:

Could the ‘elect’ be referring to His Host of Angels.? Already in Heaven.

If there is an ‘elect’ on earth …why give us His Son.?

Jesus died to atone for the sins of mankind. The elect are those who by grace have recieved the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. They will indeed be in heaven with Him.

 

[DD2007]

1. If you are saved, yet while alive, has God already judged you? Y on N ?

Certainly! If you are elected to salvation by God he has already judged you unworthy to recieve salvation. However, he has given it to you because it is simply His will to do so.

So, congratulations!

However, it doesn’t mean that you get to skip final judgement. It just means that you are guaranteed to be pardoned from the punishment you deserve.

 

[DD2007]

Man must persist until the end, doing good works, but is still dependend on God for salvation.

Right. faith without works is dead. So if you do not exibit the desire to serve God then your faith is dead and it is time to pray.

However, salvation comes from grace through faith that comes from grace and is evident in works that come from the regenerated heart that came from the faith given by grace!

So yes if you really are an elect people will notice that you are a changed creature and your outward living (works) will reflect that.

 

[DD2007]

I’m not questioning the will of God, simply your interpretation. You rightly site that God pre-destines us to be children of God. But being a child of God does not mean one will get to heaven, will it?

Please refer to post 90. I have somehow wound up in multiple conversations and if it continues I will need to consolidate them if multiple people post things directed at me.

But, yes. If you are one of the elect that God has chosen. You will indeed go to heaven.

 

[paul_c]

We are fallen creatures. We deserve hell. He chooses some and gives them the grace to salvation even though none of us deserve it. The rest he leaves to their own devices and they choose hell on their own because it.

From all the revelation we have this looks like it is the case. Jesus talked about hell quite a lot so it does apparently exist.

So, I think there is a misunderstanding in your idea of free will. Human beings can do a lot of things on their own. They just cannot do anything by their own power that can earn them the right to be saved. Salvation is only by the grace of God through faith. Faith is also of grace or it would come from a human and then merit salvation. We know that isn’t the case because the scriptures teach against that and the Church has long defeated the Pelagian heresy which states that man has the ability to save himself.

So the only acceptable things for a Christian to believe in regards to this is:

1. The Augustinian view - Man is predestined simply becasue of the good will of God.
2. The Semi-Pelagian view - Man is predestined by God because God saw something in man he thought might be ok so in effect man cooperates with grace.

You as a Catholic are free to hold either one howevr the modern Catholic Church holds mainly the semi-Pelagian view. But that has not always been the case.

The full pelagian view is contrary to scripture and is considered by all Christians to be heresy as it maintains that grace is not necessary for salvation.

I hold the Augustinian view.

I think that the sheer fact that Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards all great theologians all in agreement on this point is certainly worth a look.

Catholics can not support the semipelagian view. The two main schools of thought in the Catholic chruch are Molinism and Thomism. Both are trying to solve the problem of recognizing the preeminent role of God’s grace in salvation while also recognizing that man has free will and a role in his own salvation. Molina’s approach was to start the discussion form man’s free will and Aquinas approached it from the opposite end, which is to say that God’s Grace is pre-eminent and man’s free will secondary. In the end, the exact mechanism in which Grace and Free will cooperate is unknowable and both Thomism and Molinism are considered acceptable theories. Not, neither Calvin or Luther allowed free will to play a role in salvation, while all Catholics recognize recognized that it does indeed have a role in salvation.

Here is a good article describing the differences in all the major proposals: newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm

 

[DD2007]

Catholics can not support the semipelagian view. The two main schools of thought in the Catholic chruch are Molinism and Thomism. Both are trying to solve the problem of recognizing the preeminent role of God’s grace in salvation while also recognizing that man has free will and a role in his own salvation. Molina’s approach was to start the discussion form man’s free will and Aquinas approached it from the opposite end, which is to say that God’s Grace is pre-eminent and man’s free will secondary. In the end, the exact mechanism in which Grace and Free will cooperate is unknowable and both Thomism and Molinism are considered acceptable theories. Not, neither Calvin or Luther allowed free will to play a role in salvation, while all Catholics recognize recognized that it does indeed have a role in salvation.

Here is a good article describing the differences in all the major proposals: newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm

Catholics do support the semi-pelagian view when they say they cooperate with grace. They just don’t call it that anymore.

Molinism, Arminianism are actually semi-pelagian in nature.

Thomism, Calvinism are Augustinian in nature. However Thomism is indeed weaker and sometimes boarders on semi-pelagianism.

But, yes. Catholics can be either Thomist (basically Augustinian) or Molinist (Semi-Pelagian).

I prefer the Augustinian view becasue I think it is the one that is actually true, and therefore Orthodox.

 

[paul_c]

Catholics do support the semi-pelagian view when they say they cooperate with grace. They just don’t call it that anymore.

Molinism, Arminianism are actually semi-pelagian in nature.

Thomism, Calvinism are Augustinian in nature. However Thomism is indeed weaker and sometimes boarders on semi-pelagianism.

But, yes. Catholics can be either Thomist (basically Augustinian) or Molinist (Semi-Pelagian).

I prefer the Augustinian view becasue I think it is the one that is actually true, and therefore Orthodox.

Frankly, there’s no operational difference between Thomism and Molinism. From a human perspective, man must recognize his humility before God while at the same time, taking responsibility for his own actions. To be saved, those actions must demonstrate love for God and Neighbor. The mechanism behind these truths, which demonstrate the distinction between Thomism and Molinism are actually speculation and unknowable in this world (short of divine revelation) and actually not important to practice because they both drive the same motivation in man.
Arminianism is different, in that God’s role is reduced to the point that man might not understand that his salvation is still a gift and therefore lose the humility he needs before God… Likewise, Calvinism is also different, in that it deprives man of any responsibility for his own salvation and can lead to complacency in doing good works.

 

[NotWorthy]

We are fallen creatures. We deserve hell. He chooses some and gives them the grace to salvation even though none of us deserve it. The rest he leaves to their own devices and they choose hell on their own because it.

Hmmmm, there’s nothing one can do on their own. The only way is through God’s grace. OK, I can see that and agree with a hearty “AMEN”!

Now, if I’m not elect, then I choose hell, even though I had no choice, for there is no way in hell (pardon the pun) that I was going to get to heaven, so it’s off to hell I go, although it’s my choice, even though I didn’t have a choice.

Oh yeah, clear as mud! Ain’t God great!

I’m sorry, I can’t accept this picture of God the Puppeteer. Maybe it’s because I’m not one of the elect.

From all the revelation we have this looks like it is the case. Jesus talked about hell quite a lot so it does apparently exist.

Yes, Hell exists. I know and fear that immensely. But those that go to hell, do so because they did not accept the graces that God freely gives to all of us in varying degrees, but always with the Hope that we would join Him in heaven.

So, I think there is a misunderstanding in your idea of free will. Human beings can do a lot of things on their own. They just cannot do anything by their own power that can earn them the right to be saved. Salvation is only by the grace of God through faith. Faith is also of grace or it would come from a human and then merit salvation.

Yes, again. This is understood pretty much universally among Christians.

We know that isn’t the case because the scriptures teach against that and the Church has long defeated the Pelagian heresy which states that man has the ability to save himself.

So the only acceptable things for a Christian to believe in regards to this is:

1. The Augustinian view - Man is predestined simply becasue of the good will of God.
2. The Semi-Pelagian view - Man is predestined by God because God saw something in man he thought might be ok so in effect man cooperates with grace.

Although I am not aware with either of these views, I don’t think the misunderstanding is with “free will” so much as with “one is pre-destined for what”.

You as a Catholic are free to hold either one howevr the modern Catholic Church holds mainly the semi-Pelagian view. But that has not always been the case.

The full pelagian view is contrary to scripture and is considered by all Christians to be heresy as it maintains that grace is not necessary for salvation.

I hold the Augustinian view.

I think that the sheer fact that Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards all great theologians all in agreement on this point is certainly worth a look.

You would have to enlighten me on this massive agreement with these great minds. Care to steer me to what Augustine and Aquinas believed and taught. There other three? No thanks.

 

[NotWorthy]

Please refer to post 90. I have somehow wound up in multiple conversations and if it continues I will need to consolidate them if multiple people post things directed at me.

But, yes. If you are one of the elect that God has chosen. You will indeed go to heaven.

The Apostles were chosen. I don’t think they are all having a complete reunion in heaven. It seems that one of them was probably pruned and thrown into the fire. (Although this is only my opinion of where Judas spends his weekends and holidays).

 

[paul_c]

Although I am not aware with either of these views, I don’t think the misunderstanding is with “free will” so much as with “one is pre-destined for what”.

You would have to enlighten me on this massive agreement with these great minds. Care to steer me to what Augustine and Aquinas believed and taught. There other three? No thanks.

See the article attached to the bottom of post 95. its a pretty good primer on this. But in reality, they are not in agreement.