Once Saved, Always Saved?

[brownjt]

They tend to ignore many paasages like this from Ezekiel:

Answer them: As I live, says the Lord GOD, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man’s conversion, that he may live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! Why should you die, O house of Israel?
12
As for you, son of man, tell your countrymen: The virtue which a man has practiced will not save him on the day that he sins; neither will the wickedness that a man has done bring about his downfall on the day that he turns from his wickedness (nor can the virtuous man, when he sins, remain alive).
13
Though I say to the virtuous man that he shall surely live, if he then presumes on his virtue and does wrong, none of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered; because of the wrong he has done, he shall die.
14
And though I say to the wicked man that he shall surely die, if he turns away from his sin and does what is right and just,
15
giving back pledges, restoring stolen goods, living by the statutes that bring life, and doing no wrong, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16
None of the sins he committed shall be held against him; he has done what is right and just, he shall surely live.
17
Yet your countrymen say, “The way of the LORD is not fair!”; but it is their way that is not fair.
18
When a virtuous man turns away from what is right and does wrong, he shall die for it.
19
But when a wicked man turns away from wickedness and does what is right and just, because of this he shall live.
20
And still you say, “The way of the LORD is not fair!”? I will judge every one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel.
21

Old Covenant…New Covenant is in the house , now.

 

[brownjt]

Would you please quit using this as an argument, for the Church has never taught it, and no one is arguing this.

What you seem to miss, is that James acknowledges that you can have faith, but without works, that faith will die. And this is the crux of the matter. Catholics understand that, in doing good works in a faithful manner, then our faith is strengthened. Catholics understand that this is why we are taught to do good works. Our Faith and our Works strengthen one another. But you can have Faith, and not have Works. It’s just that you have nothing feeding your Faith, and it will die.

You can certainly have faith and not “good works” Your “good works” can be spiritual as well. Your faith is strengthened by your works, yes. But without good works, you do not necessarily die.

 

[kimmielittle]

If you haven’t been asked this question already by a Protestant friend, then some day you will be. And what will your answer be? One answer you can give them is: “Yes, I am saved by the Precious Blood of Christ (1 Pet 1:23-25), a salvation that is a free gift from God (Eph 2:8; Rom 5:15-16). I know that I am saved because I was baptized and have faith in my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16).”

This question is the hallmark of most Protestant certitude concerning their salvation and religious beliefs. Of course, they firmly believe they are unconditionally saved by the blood of Jesus when they invite Jesus to be their personal Lord and Savior. From that moment on, they believe there is nothing they can do to lose their salvation.

But as Catholics, are we saved? Your response should be a confident and unequivocal, “Yes.”. The issue is actually more complex than a simple yes-or-no response. However, the “yes” response is not only correct but will at least partially diffuse the intentional or unintentional set-up into which your Protestant friend is leading you. In most cases, Protestants will either passively or actively believe that Catholics are not saved and that, furthermore, Catholics do not believe in the fullness of nor adhere to the teachings of the Bible. But you should tell them that, as Catholics, we know that being saved is a continuous journey for us, we can not take the attitude that once we are saved we can never lose Christ’s saving grace. (Ref: Ezekiel 18:20-32 and Hebrews 6:4-6) Being saved in Christ is not a one-time event for us, but rather a continuing journey in faith.

Most Protestants believe that it is by faith alone that we are saved, and that works - whether good, bad or none at all - have nothing to do with our salvation. But refer to James 2:17 - “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” And James 2:18 - “You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” (See attached)

To most Protestants, our salvation is a totally free gift from God, and there is nothing we can do to earn it or lose it. Catholics, too, believe that Salvation is an unmerited gift from God, but we also believe that we can lose it if we die in a state of mortal sin. I recall a Baptist minister preaching on the radio one morning, and he was talking about Baptists believing that once they are saved, they are saved for all time, no matter what. He went on to say that this is the reason many of them have stopped coming to his church. They believe that since they are saved for all time, they do not need to attend church or Bible studies anymore. He went on to say how wrong they were. Heb 6:4 “For it is impossible in the case of those who have been once enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.”

As stated above, (Ref: Ezekiel 18:20-32 and Hebrews 6:4-6) Being saved in Christ is not a one-time event for us, but rather a continuing journey in faith.

Thank You

 

[brownjt]

Pillar of Fire Pillar of Truth! Such a good explanation of this:

**What You Must Do to Be Saved **
Best of all, the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God (CCC 1727). Our initial forgiveness and justification are not things we “earn” (CCC 2010). Jesus is the mediator who bridged the gap of sin that separates us from God (1 Tim. 2:5); he bridged it by dying for us. He has chosen to make us partners in the plan of salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).

The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what “Bible Christians” teach; see Jas. 2:24).

When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).

Even though only God’s grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6–7, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10, Matt. 25:34–40).

Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do the things I command?” (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21–23, 19:16–21).

We do not “earn” our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8–9, Rom. 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:8–9).

Paul said, “God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work” (Phil. 2:13). John explained that “the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, ‘I know him,’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:3–4, 3:19–24, 5:3–4).

Since no gift can be forced on the recipient—gifts always can be rejected—even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (John 15:5–6, Rom. 11:22–23, 1 Cor. 15:1–2; CCC 1854–1863). Paul tells us, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23).

Read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven (see, for example, 1 Cor. 6:9–10, Gal. 5:19–21).

Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God “will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness” (Rom. 2:6–8).

Sins are nothing but evil works (CCC 1849–1850). We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works. Every saint has known that the best way to keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the Eucharist first of all), and charitable acts.

Are You Guaranteed Heaven?
Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as “their personal Lord and Savior.” The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.

Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: “If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3–4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him” (2 Tim. 2:11–12).

If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19–24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Note that Paul includes an important condition: “provided you remain in his kindness.” He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, “Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11–12).

If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been “saved,” you should say, “I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.”

If at any time you have professed your believe and faith in Jesus Christ you are saved (at that time) and a marked man forever - you have been justified, but not sanctified. That is when you must do as the Lord commands, Love him and otherds,etc. I believe as the proponderance of evidence states from all church teachings and that we (mankind) are initially justified through the redemption of christ and that each one has to make the choice. I can tell you that the Methodist Church state quote that salvation is an ongoing process unquote.

 

[brownjt]

You may want to study what this phrase means in order to determine what the Church teaches. I don’t think you know what exactly the Church teaches.

Whe on EWTN was that said. They do not speak for the CC or God. They speak for themselves. Sometimes, it sounds self-righteous. They and you should read the section of the CCC that talks about other christian faith. God Bless us all.

 

[NotWorthy]

Whe on EWTN was that said. They do not speak for the CC or God. They speak for themselves. Sometimes, it sounds self-righteous. They and you should read the section of the CCC that talks about other christian faith. God Bless us all.

I know exactly what the CCC teaches when talking of a Catholic who knowingly leaves the true faith.

If someone leaves it from poor catechesis, then they are not fully held responsible for their actions. But DD stated quite plainly that they are very well catechized on the teachings of the Church and yet he (or she) willingly walked away and talks glibly about it.

That is an oxymoron.

 

[DD2007]

I know exactly what the CCC teaches when talking of a Catholic who knowingly leaves the true faith.

If someone leaves it from poor catechesis, then they are not fully held responsible for their actions. But DD stated quite plainly that they are very well catechized on the teachings of the Church and yet he (or she) willingly walked away and talks glibly about it.

That is an oxymoron.

:ehh:

I had departed this thread to go back to my normal routine of reading and thinking with limited or no comment and no reply responsibility, but, I read this and feel like I owe you an explaination. Sorry, to leave you hanging like that.

By the way, I’m a he and I live in Texas as well, but, I’m actually an Okie and am proud to be a fan of your Big 12 champion Sooners

So, I believe that I didn’t leave the Church at all but simply changed denominations. I am well catechized but I just simply don’t believe the Roman Catholic position on a lot of issues, enough issues that I really can’t say I’m a confessing Roman Catholic, so out of respect for your denomination and in regard to my own conscience I have given up that designation. However I believe in one Holy Catholic (universal) and Apostolic (we follow their teachings; the scriptures) Church, The Church Universal that all Christian denominations are a part of. Currently I have been attending Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches trying to decide which one to stay in. I’m pretty sure it’s going to be Presbyterian as I agree with them on almost every issue, and am happy with the one I have attended. I might even speak to them about joining this Sunday.

So, don’t worry. In no way shape or form do I think that the Roman Catholic Church is the “fullness” of truth. So, I didn’t walk away from that. God is the fullness of truth. The truth that the Church Universal is the “pillar and butress” of is the gospel of Jesus Christ as handed down to us by the witness of the Apostles as recorded in scripture.

In regards to OSAS I gave you my view. I hold the Augustinian position. I think the five points of Calvinism are pretty accurate and are the proper way to explain Soverign predestination to salvation which is basically all the unimaginative explaination called OSAS is trying to achieve.

All the best to you. See you around.

:tiphat:

 

[paul_c]

:ehh:

I had departed this thread to go back to my normal routine of reading and thinking with limited or no comment and no reply responsibility, but, I read this and feel like I owe you an explaination. Sorry, to leave you hanging like that.

By the way, I’m a he and I live in Texas as well, but, I’m actually an Okie and am proud to be a fan of your Big 12 champion Sooners

So, I believe that I didn’t leave the Church at all but simply changed denominations. I am well catechized but I just simply don’t believe the Roman Catholic position on a lot of issues, enough issues that I really can’t say I’m a confessing Roman Catholic, so out of respect for your denomination and in regard to my own conscience I have given up that designation. However I believe in one Holy Catholic (universal) and Apostolic (we follow their teachings; the scriptures) Church, The Church Universal that all Christian denominations are a part of. Currently I have been attending Presbyterian and Lutheran Churches trying to decide which one to stay in. I’m pretty sure it’s going to be Presbyterian as I agree with them on almost every issue, and am happy with the one I have attended. I might even speak to them about joining this Sunday.

So, don’t worry. In no way shape or form do I think that the Roman Catholic Church is the “fullness” of truth. So, I didn’t walk away from that. God is the fullness of truth. The truth that the Church Universal is the “pillar and butress” of is the gospel of Jesus Christ as handed down to us by the witness of the Apostles as recorded in scripture.

In regards to OSAS I gave you my view. I hold the Augustinian position. I think the five points of Calvinism are pretty accurate and are the proper way to explain Soverign predestination to salvation which is basically all the unimaginative explaination called OSAS is trying to achieve.

All the best to you. See you around.

:tiphat:

You do realize that you have fallen into the typical Protestant trap. You think the truth is what you want it to be so you go shopping around to churches to find one that espouses those same truths. Well, friend, there is only one Truth and it may be different than what you want it to be. We Catholics bend ourselves to the Truth. Protestants, bend the Truth to themselves.

You fool yourself into thinking that you are following Augustine, but Augustine never believed in Salvation on Faith alone. He was quite grounded, as are all Catholics, on the need to lead a moral life to be saved. While he taught that the ability to lead such a life came from God, he did not espouse a philosophy where Man has no responsibility for his actions. He definitely didn’t believe in th OSAS priniciple that once you acknowledge your faith, their is nothing else that needs to be done and that you cease to be responsible for your actions. Such a position is not in the least supported by scripture.

Finally, there is only one truth, it is absolute and not relative… That truth is held by the one, holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which was given the keys to heaven through St. Peter and the deposit of Faith through the Apostles. To the extent that any Protestant (or Catholic for that matter) deviates from the the church, they are deviating from the Truth. To assume that the Catholic Church is merely another denomination is to be ignorant of Christian history an theology. Finally, instead of searching for a church that meets your needs, I recommend instead that you search yourself and find out why you can not accept Church teachings.

 

[DD2007]

You do realize that you have fallen into the typical Protestant trap. You think the truth is what you want it to be so you go shopping around to churches to find one that espouses those same truths. Well, friend, there is only one Truth and it may be different than what you want it to be. We Catholics bend ourselves to the Truth. Protestants, bend the Truth to themselves.

You fool yourself into thinking that you are following Augustine, but Augustine never believed in Salvation on Faith alone. He was quite grounded, as are all Catholics, on the need to lead a moral life to be saved. While he taught that the ability to lead such a life came from God, he did not espouse a philosophy where Man has no responsibility for his actions. He definitely didn’t believe in th OSAS priniciple that once you acknowledge your faith, their is nothing else that needs to be done and that you cease to be responsible for your actions. Such a position is not in the least supported by scripture.

Finally, there is only one truth, it is absolute and not relative… That truth is held by the one, holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which was given the keys to heaven through St. Peter and the deposit of Faith through the Apostles. To the extent that any Protestant (or Catholic for that matter) deviates from the the church, they are deviating from the Truth. To assume that the Catholic Church is merely another denomination is to be ignorant of Christian history an theology. Finally, instead of searching for a church that meets your needs, I recommend instead that you search yourself and find out why you can not accept Church teachings.

“Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.”

Martin Luther, Diet of Worms on 18 April 1521

 

[paul_c]

“Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.”

Martin Luther, Diet of Worms on 18 April 1521

That’s fine, Martin Luther was a very prideful man, convinced that his own wisdom exceeded that acquired by the entire Catholic Church in the 1521 years prior to his statement. What is it about Catholicism that you can’t support? Do you have your own 95 theses to post?

 

[NotWorthy]

That’s fine, Martin Luther was a very prideful man, convinced that his own wisdom exceeded that acquired by the entire Catholic Church in the 1521 years prior to his statement. What is it about Catholicism that you can’t support? Do you have your own 95 theses to post?

Please, a different thread perhaps? This thread has been derailed enough already.

 

[brownjt]

One last note (you mean you walked away from the Eucharist and Confession?!? ):

Romans 2:5-7 seems to shed a little light on the subject of Works having a role in our Salvation:
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

I’ve heard it argued that our Works store up riches for us in heaven, meaning the reward is simply greater, but this passage seems to argue that works help us get eternal life, not fringe benefits in our heavenly realm, for this passage talks of our judgment, not our reward.

As long as our works are not based on merit and are done with the expectation that we are “not worthy” and "undeserving"of what God may grant us out of grace. Spiritual works and corporeal works are equal in my eyes and hopefully God’s.

 

[brownjt]

I’m sorry, but the Catholic Church is not just another denomination. It is the one true Church, founded by Jesus Christ when he gave the keys to the kingdom to Saint Peter. Within the Catholic Church resides the full deposit of faith. When you choose to leave the Catholic Church, you are leaving the Truth and the Sacraments that provide the Graces you discuss as essential to salvation… When you do that you are spurning not only the church, but the Truth of Christ on which it rests. In effect, you are saying that you know better about what it takes for salvation that the Body of Christ, which is his Church. Give that some thought. Our arms are always wide open…

Yes, your quotes are right out of the CCC. Will you also read your CCC regarding what the Mother Church feels about the other christian faiths. Your defensiveness is kind of disconcerting. Maybe a little too self-righteous in this case? I mean this sincerely, but it puts me off and seems to marginalize all others. Maybe not your intent.

 

[brownjt]

I know exactly what the CCC teaches when talking of a Catholic who knowingly leaves the true faith.

If someone leaves it from poor catechesis, then they are not fully held responsible for their actions. But DD stated quite plainly that they are very well catechized on the teachings of the Church and yet he (or she) willingly walked away and talks glibly about it.

That is an oxymoron.

i accept that then. There is nothing false about the teachings of the catholic faith and I apologize for misinterpreting the tone.

I also want to note that other contributors have said that OSAS is a common protestant theme, but I have never heard that taught in my protestant years. I think that there are a number of fundamentalist sects out there grabbing the headlines on this. Salvation is ongoing process, like even the Methodist Church says. What i have found is that the CC provides concrete biblically and tradition based guideposts along the way to help on the journey.

As a new upcoming convert, I appreciate the pure and meditative way in which catholics worship and the discipline involved in it. I cannot describe how much closer to God - intellectually and spiritually I have become since starting RCIA.

I enjoy the debate and the exploration.

 

[NotWorthy]

As long as our works are not based on merit and are done with the expectation that we are “not worthy” and "undeserving"of what God may grant us out of grace. Spiritual works and corporeal works are equal in my eyes and hopefully God’s.

Yes, that is a given.

… with the expectation that we are “not worthy”

Do you ever wonder why I use this name as my moniker? It’s not a coincidence.

 

[NotWorthy]

i accept that then. There is nothing false about the teachings of the catholic faith and I apologize for misinterpreting the tone.

I also want to note that other contributors have said that OSAS is a common protestant theme, but I have never heard that taught in my protestant years…

It’s very common among the Southern Baptist and the numerous evangelical churches that have sprung from them. Down here in Southeast Texas, the Protestant faiths are populated with Baptist, Methodist, Pentecost, Assembly of God, and Church of Christ.

The Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Lutheran are not very common.

 

[paul_c]

i accept that then. There is nothing false about the teachings of the catholic faith and I apologize for misinterpreting the tone.

I also want to note that other contributors have said that OSAS is a common protestant theme, but I have never heard that taught in my protestant years. I think that there are a number of fundamentalist sects out there grabbing the headlines on this. Salvation is ongoing process, like even the Methodist Church says. What i have found is that the CC provides concrete biblically and tradition based guideposts along the way to help on the journey.

As a new upcoming convert, I appreciate the pure and meditative way in which catholics worship and the discipline involved in it. I cannot describe how much closer to God - intellectually and spiritually I have become since starting RCIA.

I enjoy the debate and the exploration.

The three most common Protestant themes discussed on this board because they are different from Catholic teaching seem to be:

1. Sola Scriptura and personal interpretation of scripture as opposed to the full deposit of Faith (including Tradition) used by Catholics
2. sola fide : Salvation by Faith alone as opposed to Works required to demonstrate Faith by Catholics
3. OSAS: Some Protestants believe that once you are “born again” you are saved forever, regardless of your subsequent actions. Catholics of course believe that your faith is only assured when you die in the state of Grace and that purification in Purgatory is necessary in many cases.

By the way, the Catholic Church teaches that there are truths in all faith traditions, but that only the Catholic Church has all the truths.

 

[DD2007]

The five sola’s of the Reformation in no certain order:

Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone

fivesolas.com/5solas.htm

Here’s a good link to browse around: monergism.com/

 

[brownjt]

All of you. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Interesting enough, though, the methodists church website states that salvation is an ongoing process. Hmmm, if you know of any methodists, ask them for their explanation of their salvation in this light. Also, the interpretation of the Southern Baptists in particular are note-worthy: you are either going to heaven or going to hell. No wonder OSAS is their moniker - whether they realize it or not! I just hope that the real differences in interpretation are not due to the legacy of the schism. I also suspect that catholics and Southern baptists do not mix much. How about your dioceses - have there been any movement to address this and/or agree to disagree respectfully?