J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
It never ceases to amaze me how the Calvinists have no problem with a monstrous God that takes away freedom of will from man once they are saved and turns them into robots.
- Status
A
adriancombe
Guest
I read it in the original Greek, of course, the entire verse. I’m not saying what it does or does not say definitively; I merely posited one possibility. I also did not claim
to be analyzing every aspect of the verse - merely one or two. If you really want to go into that kind of depth, it would constitute a separate thread.
Many protestants who believe in OSAS use this as a proof text. The key fact in that regard is the subjunctive, not which dictionary entry you follow for ειδον.
L
Linoge1
Guest
I wrote this, what is the this he is talking about, it is his commandments and his gospel which he taught
S
SB81848889
Guest
That’s exactly what Jesus did, he lost one disciple to fulfill prophecy. Judas was a vessel of destruction just as Paul said in Romans. God will have mercy on who he will have mercy. We all deserve his wrath, and I bet if we read our bibles we can see that by believing Jesus died for our sins we have peace and forgiveness from God.
Also Judas could have repented after he fulfilled prophecy by betraying Christ, but he chose to commit suicide instead.
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Linoge1
Guest
I do believe Jesus died for my sins and rose again on the third day so I may have eternal life. But the Bible says those who endure to the end will be saved. If ou do not endure and be faithful to his teachings and turn from the Lord by sin, then you will be “cut off” its pretty clear on that.
E
erikd
Guest
Where in Scripture does it state that he never repented?
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erikd
Guest
Christians of many denominations, as well as non-denominational Christians, firmly believe that once they have been saved, they are always saved. Several verses have been used to state this interpretation of Scripture. These verses include, but are not limited to the following:
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 “I and My Father are one.”
John 10:27-30
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38-39
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30
While these verses certainly stress the power of God and His plan of salvation, what do they say about us? Do they really state that we cannot lose salvation once we have been saved? Let’s look at the evidence.
One of the strongest verses above is “28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand” John 10:28. This statement, however, says absolutely nothing of our own ability to separate ourselves from God. Here is one view from St. John Chrysostom:
“As long as we are in the hand of God, “no one is able to pluck us out” (John x. 28), for that hand is strong; but when we fall away from that hand and that help, then are we lost, then are we exposed, ready to be snatched away, as a “bowing wall, and a tottering fence” surmount. Think not this which I am about to say refers to Jerusalem alone, but to all men.”
St. John Chrysostom, Homily 6 on Philippians.
Is it possible that we ourselves can separate ourselves from God? Overwhelmingly YES!!! The best evidence of this lies in the third chapter of Genesis where Adam and Eve separated themselves, and consequently all of us, from God. While God may provide us the protection of preventing outside interference of our love for God, it still remains our choice, as it was the choice for Adam and Eve. Is there evidence of this in the New Testament? Let’s take a look.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23
If one cannot lose their salvation, St. Paul would certainly not speak of “grafting again” as it would not be necessary. In fact, St. Paul clearly shows that one can be “cut off” if one does not “continue in His goodness.”
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:20-22
Here, St. Peter speaks of the responsibility one has that comes with the knowledge of God. The sinner is compared to a dog returning to its vomit and is represented as one who “escaped the pollutions of the world” and then becomes “entangled in them and overcome.” It seems unlikely for St. Paul to speak of this if it was never meant to be an issue.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31
St. Paul, again, speaking of the responsibility of knowing the truth. Ones who do not live in the truth are described as “adversaries” who “trampled the Son of God underfoot.” It again seems unlikely that St. Paul would be explaining this if salvation were not at stake.
Continued on the next post
E
erikd
Guest
Continued from previous post.
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
Hebrews 10:35-37
In the last verse, St. Paul repeats the promises of Christ, while explaining the conditions of that promise. First he speaks of the confidence and endurance which has great rewards. In the next verse, St. Paul explains the conditions:
38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39
St. Paul indicates that it is, in fact, possible to “draw back” with which lie consequences. One other thing that should be clarified is what Christ thought of this issue:
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
Matthew 7: 23-26
14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
John 15: 14
Jesus explains what true faith really is. He does not say to “accept Him in your heart” and He does not say that once you’ve accepted Him by doing what He asks you to do, your salvation is forever assured. Perhaps this next parable sums it up pretty well:
45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 "Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 "Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 "But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’
49 "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24: 45-51
According to this parable, if we know what the Master’s will is, and we do not do the Master’s will when we think He is not looking, He will cut us in two and appoint us our portion with the hypocrites. There is a very important point being made here: If the servant does the will of the Master, then he has “accepted” the will of the Master. However, at some point the servant falls away from the Master. Once he is accepted, later he is cut in two and appointed what he does not want. If there’s any doubt as to what this is, please remember: There is no “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in heaven.
The Catholic View
Many Christians falsely believe that Catholics earn their way into heaven. This is very much a fallacy as shown by the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“By our salvation all things are ours, we are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s (I Cor., iii, 22-23).
The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).
It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will.”
This quote from the Catholic encyclopedia may be contradictory to popular beliefs of the Catholic faith. One reason is that it is almost in line with the popular Protestant beliefs though it accounts for one thing the Protestant doctrines don’t account for. While this grace cannot be merited, it is up to each individual to receive this gift. What does reception of this gift require? Faith. What does faith require? Faith requires following God’s commandments (John 15:14, 17, Matt. 5:48, 7:23, Luke 10:27-28.) Faith requires works in order to be true faith in Christ (James 2:20, Luke 6:46.)
So how is it possible that grace cannot be merited if works are a part of faith? This can be explained by one simple analogy. If one is given a gift, there is a giving party and a receiving party. The giving party gives the gift hoping that the receiving party accepts the gift and uses or enjoys the gift. The receiving party, however, can choose to throw away the gift either by throwing it out all together or by rejecting parts and not accepting it in its entirety. God’s gift is simple: follow Me and I will save you. The Bible shows how to follow the God that gave us this wonderful gift. Some people follow fully, others follow partially, others not at all. Every act of faith presented in the Bible is followed by some act which is indicative of works involved in faith. Abraham had faith so great, he showed God that he was ready to do anything, including sacrificing his son on the altar before being stopped by the Angel of the Lord (Gen. 22:1-13). The thief on the cross literally died with Christ (Luke 23:40-42) and defended Christ with his last breath. The thief literally died with Christ which as St. Paul tells us is a form of Baptism (Romans 6:8, Colossians 2:20, Galatians 2:19). Salvation is not earned it is either received or rejected.
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
Hebrews 10:35-37
In the last verse, St. Paul repeats the promises of Christ, while explaining the conditions of that promise. First he speaks of the confidence and endurance which has great rewards. In the next verse, St. Paul explains the conditions:
38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39
St. Paul indicates that it is, in fact, possible to “draw back” with which lie consequences. One other thing that should be clarified is what Christ thought of this issue:
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
Matthew 7: 23-26
14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
John 15: 14
Jesus explains what true faith really is. He does not say to “accept Him in your heart” and He does not say that once you’ve accepted Him by doing what He asks you to do, your salvation is forever assured. Perhaps this next parable sums it up pretty well:
45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 "Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 "Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 "But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’
49 "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24: 45-51
According to this parable, if we know what the Master’s will is, and we do not do the Master’s will when we think He is not looking, He will cut us in two and appoint us our portion with the hypocrites. There is a very important point being made here: If the servant does the will of the Master, then he has “accepted” the will of the Master. However, at some point the servant falls away from the Master. Once he is accepted, later he is cut in two and appointed what he does not want. If there’s any doubt as to what this is, please remember: There is no “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in heaven.
The Catholic View
Many Christians falsely believe that Catholics earn their way into heaven. This is very much a fallacy as shown by the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“By our salvation all things are ours, we are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s (I Cor., iii, 22-23).
The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).
It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will.”
This quote from the Catholic encyclopedia may be contradictory to popular beliefs of the Catholic faith. One reason is that it is almost in line with the popular Protestant beliefs though it accounts for one thing the Protestant doctrines don’t account for. While this grace cannot be merited, it is up to each individual to receive this gift. What does reception of this gift require? Faith. What does faith require? Faith requires following God’s commandments (John 15:14, 17, Matt. 5:48, 7:23, Luke 10:27-28.) Faith requires works in order to be true faith in Christ (James 2:20, Luke 6:46.)
So how is it possible that grace cannot be merited if works are a part of faith? This can be explained by one simple analogy. If one is given a gift, there is a giving party and a receiving party. The giving party gives the gift hoping that the receiving party accepts the gift and uses or enjoys the gift. The receiving party, however, can choose to throw away the gift either by throwing it out all together or by rejecting parts and not accepting it in its entirety. God’s gift is simple: follow Me and I will save you. The Bible shows how to follow the God that gave us this wonderful gift. Some people follow fully, others follow partially, others not at all. Every act of faith presented in the Bible is followed by some act which is indicative of works involved in faith. Abraham had faith so great, he showed God that he was ready to do anything, including sacrificing his son on the altar before being stopped by the Angel of the Lord (Gen. 22:1-13). The thief on the cross literally died with Christ (Luke 23:40-42) and defended Christ with his last breath. The thief literally died with Christ which as St. Paul tells us is a form of Baptism (Romans 6:8, Colossians 2:20, Galatians 2:19). Salvation is not earned it is either received or rejected.
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Linoge1
Guest
Erikd, your post was much appreciated. It cleared up and questions that still remained. Thank you and God bless!
E
erikd
Guest
I’m just happy to serve the Lord. God Bless You, my friend.
H
Holly3278
Guest
Once saved always saved is clearly a false and heretical doctrine. Admittedly, is an appealing doctrine but it is false and I am sure it has lead many people to hell.
[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 9:27[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 10:12[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Philippians 2:12[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Romans 11:21-22[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Hebrews 10:26-29[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 9:27[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 10:12[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Philippians 2:12[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Romans 11:21-22[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Hebrews 10:26-29[/bibledrb]
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Linoge1
Guest
I was doing my Bible reading and study this evening in Matthew when this was pointed out to me.
Matthew 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
In order to be filled with righteousness you must hunger and thirst after it. An unrighteous man can not enter the kingdom of heaven; it clearly states that in the Bible. There are times when we do not hunger and thirst for righteousness (Being in god’s grace) and that is when we are backslidden in sin (Being out of God’s grace) so we can not be filled with it. Just a thought
Matthew 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
In order to be filled with righteousness you must hunger and thirst after it. An unrighteous man can not enter the kingdom of heaven; it clearly states that in the Bible. There are times when we do not hunger and thirst for righteousness (Being in god’s grace) and that is when we are backslidden in sin (Being out of God’s grace) so we can not be filled with it. Just a thought
E
erikd
Guest
This made me think of a couple of things Jesus said:
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Matthew 7:7-8
9 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’
16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
17 "for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Matthew 13:9-17
Which is why Jesus Built His Church.
M
mrs_abbott
Guest
Hmmmm . . .
I could never understand OSAS. Even if it IS true, I don’t think that us as human beings could even begin to say who is saved and who isn’t. That is up to God alone!
C
ChadS
Guest
You know, Jerry I knew somebody once that ascribed to that exact same theology you just described, except for one big difference – no one ever had free will, every action, every thought was pre-ordained from God, we were robots from the get go. Not only did they willingly accept this sort of theology but rejoiced in it saying what better thing to be robot for God could there be?
She and her family also believed in OSAS and that falling away from the faith was absolutely impossible. If somebody fell away it was because they were never saved, which led me to ask if that person was just as sure of their salvation and fell away why couldn’t they? Impossible, I was told, their salvation is assured.
Also, if you sin after you’re saved, don’t worry about confessing it to God or anybody else for that matter because ALL of your sins – past, present, and future – were forgiven when you accepted Jesus in your heart. You could tell Jesus you were sorry but that would be pointless and possibly blasphemous since your sin was already forgiven – even without being aware of it or asking for forgiveness.
ChadS
B
Brian_Culliton
Guest
Let me ask you guys something. You believe God loves you, right? And you probably believe God will always love you. In turn, you also love God. Why then is it difficult for you to understand how someone can say they will never walk away from that love and be assured of it? That is what OSAS is to me. As somebody here said, nobody can tell anybody else whether or not they are saved, and likewise, nobody can tell anybody else that they are not saved. Let people work that out for themselves.
I will say this though, I am as critical as you when people, especially ministers, say that all one needs to do is accept Jesus into their heart and they are saved. Accepting Jesus into your heart is when the seed hits the ground (parable of the sower), not the point in which one is saved.
I will say this though, I am as critical as you when people, especially ministers, say that all one needs to do is accept Jesus into their heart and they are saved. Accepting Jesus into your heart is when the seed hits the ground (parable of the sower), not the point in which one is saved.
T
Thing
Guest
I actually agree with your last paragraph. Its a parable I like. When the seeds grew up, actually grew, but were at some point thereafter overtaken by thorns or briars and the young plants died - presumably.
Many peoples marriages are similar, I hear. They are a love story. But sometimes as the story progresses life intrudes, and the thorns kill the marriage.
One may start of well intentioned in Christianity but I don’t think anyone is a fortune-teller enough to guess the end of the story. We just cannot tell the future and say honestly that we KNOW we won’t at some future time let our side down. Though we start out with the best of intentions. And thats my 2 cents, and if you don’t like it can I have my money back. Thanks.
E
erikd
Guest
It’s simple, Brian, we are all prone to sin. We sin in a physical sense, and we sin in our minds, but either way it’s a sin. For some people it is a constant struggle to eradicate sin out of their life. No matter how much someone loves God, sin separates us from God. Since we are ultimately sinning, we are ultimately separating ourselves from God. Think of Christ on the cross, and what He must have endured. That was endured for me because I sinned. I put Him up there so that I can be saved. My sins put Him up there so that I can spend eternity with Him. If I overlook my sins, I’m overlooking his passion. The key is how one turns one’s life back to God and what one does to cease sin (as much as is humanly possible) within one’s life.
I know God loves me, and I know that God wants me in heaven for all of eternity. I believe that we are all pre-destined to be in heaven (though that’s probably another thread). No man can separate us from God, but we can separate ourselves, and we do it on a daily basis.
C
ChadS
Guest
Brian you are right, why would anybody want to walk away from that love? Or perhaps why would anybody not want to walk towards that same love yet everyday people make both a conscious and unconscious decision to either walk towards or away from that love.
Every person has free will and we can turn to or away from sin. Sin ruptures our relationship with God, venial sins in minor ways and mortal sin in major and important ways. However any sin if allowed to grow and permeate our minds and souls can lead to a complete turning away from God and denying him. Yes, he’ll still love us and he’s ready to take us back at any moment but sometimes we decide not to take him up on his offer. A person can have a wonderful relationship with God now and walk in his love daily, but over time slowly at first and later faster that relationship can disintegrate to where God is a stranger in your life.
That’s how, at least I do, see salavation being lost. Sometimes it can happen all at once or maybe it’s just a process that happens slowly and over time. In all of this though we can at least agree upon (I hope) that God is always there ready and willing to take us back.
ChadS
B
Brian_Culliton
Guest
You are either committed to God you you’re not. If you think you might walk away from Him someday than I would say you are not committed, because I believe He is perfectly faithful and is committed. I have no doubt that I will never walk away from my family and they are not perfect. I also have no doubt that I will never walk away from God and He is perfect.
It’s funny; the Catholic Church has a far better understanding of the sanctity of marriage than it does the relationship between God and us. Your church seems to understand that marriage is a permanent relationship (in sickness and in health; for richer or for poorer), but fails to acknowledge the same is even truer of our relationship with our Father.
In John 15, Jesus tells us to abide in Him. We do that through love which enables us to obey His commandments. And when we unwillingly fail to keep His commandments or make a bad desission, He is our advocate with the Father who is quick to forgive because we are covered by Christ’s blood. So a person who loves God will cherish their relationship with Him, and by Him they will be nourished and bear fruit. Jesus promises that those who bear fruit will not ever be cut off, but pruned so that they might bear more fruit.
It’s funny; the Catholic Church has a far better understanding of the sanctity of marriage than it does the relationship between God and us. Your church seems to understand that marriage is a permanent relationship (in sickness and in health; for richer or for poorer), but fails to acknowledge the same is even truer of our relationship with our Father.
In John 15, Jesus tells us to abide in Him. We do that through love which enables us to obey His commandments. And when we unwillingly fail to keep His commandments or make a bad desission, He is our advocate with the Father who is quick to forgive because we are covered by Christ’s blood. So a person who loves God will cherish their relationship with Him, and by Him they will be nourished and bear fruit. Jesus promises that those who bear fruit will not ever be cut off, but pruned so that they might bear more fruit.
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