Once Saved Always Saved!

[wmscott]

Interesting!

Perhaps the despair of Judas is the result of God withdrawing His hand from Judas, and not for the shame of his crime. Meaning, Judas sinned greatly, and the wages of sin is death. The death in question is spiritual death, in which case spiritual death as a result of sin is to be seperated from God. So with this understanding, The despair of Judas was a result of a spiritual famine in his heart, being seperated completely from God, and not for his crime. After he commited his crime, God withdrew completely from Judas, (who was called by Christ to begin with) leaving Judas in total and complete darkness, that is spiritual darkness, and in despair, which is the worst sort of depression, and so seeing no alternative to the pain as a result of the absense of God, he killed himself, and so he killed himself in an unsaved state, and the wages of sin is death. When it says Judas repented himself, it could be read as his repentece was a work that he was trying to do. returning the money was a work that he did in order to get right with God. But as we learn we are not saved by works, so when Judas repented and returned the money, this was only Judas trying to save himself, and not the result of God saving him. Meaning, Judas’s work was his own, and not the result of a new resurrected soul. In which case Judas can not get himself saved by doing work because Christ has to do all the work.

Yet we read in Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

If it was better for Judas to never be born, then this is strong language telling us Judas was in the deepest darkest part of spiritual hell for his betrayal.

Of course, God called Judas for the purpose of being betrayed. right?! Jesus needed to be arrested, needed to be scourged, needed to be crucified, in order to be resurrected. So Judas was in the plan all along as the betrayer and this was also in Gods control from the beginning.

Just an observation, I would rather defer to St. Leo, Origen, and St. Chrysostom along with the other ECF’s over your assertions. Just a matter of trusting in those who are closet to the situation. l like the way you worked in the Protestant position on “Works”

 

[fdesales]

We are all born spiritually dead, when Christ calls you, and gives you a new resurrected soul, then at that point, Christ has paid for everysingle one of your dirty rotten sins. PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.

Sir,

Please explain to me, then, why in the WORLD would Jesus say THIS, if ALL sins were already paid, past, present, and future???

Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained John 20:22-23

I am not stating this to prove Catholic Confession, etc… But Jesus says this AFTER the resurrection, AFTER His death, when “all sins, past, present and future are already paid”…Why would there be a need for anyone to confess their sins OR the possibility that they could be RETAINED???

Furthermore, if we follow your line of thought, no one will go to hell after Christ died, since ALL sins (YOUR emphasis) have been paid for… Correct?

God forgives those who repent, thus it remains for man to request forgiveness, so it is false to say “all sins have already been paid for”. If so, no one would have to pay for them by going to hell.

The indicator that a man is saved is his desire to do the will of God. When Judis betrayed our Lord, he pretty much destroyed himself and walked into a dark place of depression and guilt and internal pain. That is evident by the scripture. But at the last he repented.

So when a man does not desire to do God’s will in a particular situation, say, steals something or cheats on his wife, does that mean that those past 20 years of following God were a figment of his imagination? They never happened, he was never REALLY saved??? Then there is indeed no confidence of personal salvation into the future.

It is debatable that Judas “repented” in the sense that WE are used to hearing. “Repent” also means trusting that God would forgive, and clearly, Judas died in despair, Christ making the point that “it would have been better if he had never been born”… An interesting comment IF he repented and is now in heaven…

Another clear indication that not ALL sins, past, present and future, have been paid for…

Regards

 

[fdesales]

Of course, God called Judas for the purpose of being betrayed. right?! Jesus needed to be arrested, needed to be scourged, needed to be crucified, in order to be resurrected. So Judas was in the plan all along as the betrayer and this was also in Gods control from the beginning.

Nonsense, Jesus didn’t NEED to have any of that happen to Him. It was foreseen, but man’s free will was not over-ridden because “it was the plan”, and even if Judas changed his mind, God must execute the plan and force Judas to betray Christ and force the Jews to convict and force Pilate to carry out the crucifixion order. These were all acts of free will from men that the Father has/is sees (since God sees all time as one NOW, He sees creation and destruction of the world as one act, so nothing will “ruin the plan”, since He sees it in operation from beginning to end)

By saying “this was in God’s plan from the beginning” is technically incorrect, since there is no beginning for God, there just IS. There is no chronological timeline that God is bound to follow. For us, the plan unfolds, but for God, the plan IS simultaneous.

To use geometry to express the concept of eternity, any point on an infinite line is equally distant to ANY other point on that line… Thus, all points of time are equally accessible to God in eternity.

Regards

 

[Brian_Culliton]

If what you say is true then the Bible would be written differently. St. Paul would have no need to be concerned to be a castaway if he really knew he was “once saved always saved”.

“For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)

…I’m with Paul!

 

[MonFrere]

…I’m with Paul!

“For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)

In all the whole list that St. Paul mentions in Romans 8 which would separate us from Christ there is one thing that’s not listed. That one thing is ourselves. St. Paul knew that he was responsible for doing his part in keeping his relationship with Christ alive. If you do not; then your salvation is in danger of being lost.

MonFrere

 

[ChadS]

In all the whole list that St. Paul mentions in Romans 8 which would separate us from Christ there is one thing that’s not listed. That one thing is ourselves. St. Paul knew that he was responsible for doing his part in keeping his relationship with Christ alive. If you do not; then your salvation is in danger of being lost.

MonFrere

Doesn’t Paul also say somewhere else that he is working out his salvation with fear and trembling?

ChadS

 

[MonFrere]

Doesn’t Paul also say somewhere else that he is working out his salvation with fear and trembling? ChadS

Absolutely Chad. In previous posts with Brian I was talking about St. Paul saying he himself could become a castaway. I was referring to this scripture but your is another one - and a very good one at that. There are lot of scriptures to skin this OSAS Protestant cat.

MonFrere

 

[Ceil-1]

…I’m with Paul!

It is so mystifying when people, who claim Christ as their own, put Paul’s words over their Saviours’. As if Paul would contradict Jesus’ words. One must interpret Paul’s words in light of Christ’s words, not separate from them. You are twisting Scripture to fit the attachment you have to your POV, my friend. All this at the expense of Our Lord’s own words. Wow.

 

[kfinstad]

The Baptist church … I left, taught … when one is saved, they are always saved. … Why would God call Judas to the discipleship if Judas had no intention of really serving God? … The Baptist and Protestant way of thinking makes Jesus look like he purposely allowed a traitor in his chosen circle of disciples. We all have a free will. … I feel that by this example refutes the belief of OSAS?

I hadn’t looked at the story, concerning Judas and his betrayal of Jesus, quite in the way, that you have expressed it, but a refutation concerning “Once saved: always saved.” I have had on my mind, recently is the story of those angels, who clearly were saved, because they were in heaven with God, yet, with their freewill, they chose Satan, and Hell–to me, that is a strong refutation concerning O.S.A.S…

 

[Brian_Culliton]

It is so mystifying when people, who claim Christ as their own, put Paul’s words over their Saviours’. As if Paul would contradict Jesus’ words. One must interpret Paul’s words in light of Christ’s words, not separate from them. You are twisting Scripture to fit the attachment you have to your POV, my friend. All this at the expense of Our Lord’s own words. Wow.

Interesting. All I provided was Paul’s words; you provided the interpretation. Therefore, it must be you that is twisting Scripture. Your post is proof that you only hear what you want to hear.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Interesting. All I provided was Paul’s words; you provided the interpretation. Therefore, it must be you that is twisting Scripture. Your post is proof that you only hear what you want to hear.

Do you not interpret Scripture and thus twist it yourself? Are your interpretations synonymous with Scripture?

 

[Carlan]

It is so mystifying when people, who claim Christ as their own, put Paul’s words over their Saviours’. As if Paul would contradict Jesus’ words. One must interpret Paul’s words in light of Christ’s words, not separate from them. You are twisting Scripture to fit the attachment you have to your POV, my friend. All this at the expense of Our Lord’s own words. Wow.

yes Ceil, As much as we love Saint Paul, it is not reading Jesus through the eyes of Paul, or through our oun interpretaion of Paul it is what Jesus says.If we read the Gospel of Matthew and note all the words of Jesus we will be enlightened.:thumbsup:Carlan

 

[Brian_Culliton]

In all the whole list that St. Paul mentions in Romans 8 which would separate us from Christ there is one thing that’s not listed. That one thing is ourselves. St. Paul knew that he was responsible for doing his part in keeping his relationship with Christ alive. If you do not; then your salvation is in danger of being lost.

MonFrere

“…nor any other created thing…” Again, you hear what you want to hear. I said nothing about not doing my part. Not doing my part would be the same as not loving God. Did you ever ask yourself why God would cut off a fruit-bearing branch or destroy a fruitful plant? Are you not rooted and grounded in love?

You talk about Scripture yet you fail to understand these fundamental principles of our faith. What did Paul need to DO to keep from loosing his salvation?

 

[ChadS]

“…nor any other created thing…” Again, you hear what you want to hear. I said nothing about not doing my part. Not doing my part would be the same as not loving God. Did you ever ask yourself why God would cut off a fruit-bearing branch or destroy a fruitful plant? Are you not rooted and grounded in love?

You talk about Scripture yet you fail to understand these fundamental principles of our faith. What did Paul need to DO to keep from loosing his salvation?

MonFrere is correct in this one. Paul did indeed say “nor any other created thing.” That little phrase means that other people and things can’t keep us from our relationship with God, it doesn’t mean that we can’t keep ourselves from our relationship with God.

ChadS

 

[SeanTom]

Most Protestants believe that it is by faith alone that we are saved, and that works - whether good, bad or none at all - have nothing to do with our salvation. But refer to James 2:17 - “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” And James 2:18 - “You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I, by my works, will show you my faith.”

To most Protestants, our salvation is a totally free gift from God, and there is nothing we can do to earn it or lose it. Catholics, too, believe that Salvation is an unmerited gift from God, but we also believe that we can lose it if we die in a state of mortal sin. I recall a Baptist minister preaching on the radio one morning, and he was talking about Baptists believing that once they are saved, they are saved for all time, no matter what. He went on to say that this is the reason many of them have stopped coming to his church. They believe that since they are saved for all time, they do not need to attend church or Bible studies anymore. He went on to say how wrong they were.

As stated above, (Ref: Ezekiel 18:20-32 and Hebrews 6:4-6) Being saved in Christ is not a one-time event for us, but rather a continuing journey in faith.

 

[juliamajor]

Whenever I think of OSAS I think of David Berkowitz(son of sam) says he’s saved born again but how is one saved if he has not come entirely clean about the murders he committed.?(he hasn’t)Or others like him who say they’ve found the Lord who has forgiven him yet he hasn’t made a move toward the victims families?Not that the Lord doesn’t forgive but that’s a two way street.The Lord forgives us if we repent.Saying-“I’m saved” or “born again” doesn’t make it so.Action is more important then mere words.

 

[SeanTom]

Whenever I think of OSAS I think of David Berkowitz(son of sam) says he’s saved born again but how is one saved if he has not come entirely clean about the murders he committed.?(he hasn’t)Or others like him who say they’ve found the Lord who has forgiven him yet he hasn’t made a move toward the victims families?Not that the Lord doesn’t forgive but that’s a two way street.The Lord forgives us if we repent.Saying-“I’m saved” or “born again” doesn’t make it so.Action is more important then mere words.

All will receive a final judgment by God when we appear before Him. One can not fool God, nor can one manipulate Him. Spiritual justice will be served.

 

[Scriptorian]

The doctrine of Salvation is one that has been debated for millennia. It is quite simple in its description, but much more difficult in its application. As a case in point one version has been simplified all the way down to an acronym (OSAS) here. I believe that OSAS is incorrect even though nearly all people who are saved remain saved forever.

So, here is my synopsis. Test it and see if it tastes good before pointing out to me what I already know – (I am well aware that this is not Catholic doctrine):

1. All mankind may be saved through the grace of Jesus Christ and fruitful faith on his name.
2. A man cannot be saved without knowing that he is saved
3. Once a man is saved, he may fall from grace
4. Falling from grace is a permanent condition in which a conscious and complete change has occurred in a man where he becomes an enemy to God and to Christ and is filled with the spirit of the devil
5. Salvation cannot be achieved in a day, but through many years of devotion and faith
6. Few achieve salvation in this life, but if a person dies while faithfully pressing forward in faith, he will be saved
7. You cannot fall from grace after you are dead

(These things obviously apply to women as well as men…)

Now. Here is the real question. What does it mean to be saved?

 

[SeanTom]

The doctrine of Salvation is one that has been debated for millennia. It is quite simple in its description, but much more difficult in its application. As a case in point one version has been simplified all the way down to an acronym (OSAS) here. I believe that OSAS is incorrect even though nearly all people who are saved remain saved forever.

So, here is my synopsis. Test it and see if it tastes good before pointing out to me what I already know – (I am well aware that this is not Catholic doctrine):

1. All mankind may be saved through the grace of Jesus Christ and fruitful faith on his name.
2. A man cannot be saved without knowing that he is saved
3. Once a man is saved, he may fall from grace
4. Falling from grace is a permanent condition in which a conscious and complete change has occurred in a man where he becomes an enemy to God and to Christ and is filled with the spirit of the devil
5. Salvation cannot be achieved in a day, but through many years of devotion and faith
6. Few achieve salvation in this life, but if a person dies while faithfully pressing forward in faith, he will be saved
7. You cannot fall from grace after you are dead

(These things obviously apply to women as well as men…)

Now. Here is the real question. What does it mean to be saved?

“Being saved” is a religious term that is a shortened term for Someone who has been saved from damnation to Hell. It is equivalent to being saved through God’s grace and being received as a child of God who will be received into Heaven.

It is a term for one who has received Jesus Christ and is a believing Christian. There are many religious terms that have been altered and truncated such that the meaning is difficult for non-religious people to understand. Sometimes these terms makes it difficult for Christians and non-Christians to communicate and understand each other.

 

[erikd]

“…nor any other created thing…” Again, you hear what you want to hear. I said nothing about not doing my part. Not doing my part would be the same as not loving God. Did you ever ask yourself why God would cut off a fruit-bearing branch or destroy a fruitful plant? Are you not rooted and grounded in love?

You talk about Scripture yet you fail to understand these fundamental principles of our faith. What did Paul need to DO to keep from loosing his salvation?

Brian, I believe that St. Paul does refer to the possibility of losing one’s salvation, after having gained it.

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Romans 11:22-23

It seems that when one continues in the goodness of God, he will not be cut off, though if one does not continue in that goodness he will be cut off. Being cut off implies that one had priviliges that were cut off. Those privileges, one would assume, would be associated with salvation, for that is our ultimate reward. The reward, of course, referred to as one being “grafted in” though notice that one can be grafted in “again.”

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:26-31

St. Paul, of course, would not tell us this if it was impossible to lose one’s salvation after having gained it.

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39

Living by faith, being saved, then drawing back to perdition. St. Paul seemingly believing in punishment even after one has become a believer.

Perhaps you could point all of us to verses that support your theory, but remember that although noone can separate us from God, we ourselves can certainly fall away from the Hand of God, as witnessed by the above mentioned passages along with many others.