S
Soutane
Guest
Would those adherents to OSAS please support their contention using Biblical reference only.
- Status
S
Soutane
Guest
Nobody?
T
Trishie
Guest
If anyone does, I, amongst many, will begin posting from scripture, beginning with such texts as:
James 2: 14-24, Galatians 6:7-9, Luke 6:45 Phil 2:12-13, Philippians 2:12-13,
and of course, Matthew 25, verses 31-46
James 2: 14-24, Galatians 6:7-9, Luke 6:45 Phil 2:12-13, Philippians 2:12-13,
and of course, Matthew 25, verses 31-46
S
Soutane
Guest
Trishie,I don’t think that anyone will have the courage to do so because it CAN’T be proven from Holy Scripture- it is entirely a man-made invention that is in fact a sin of presumption.
S
shawn38
Guest
Not true. We just get sick of repeating ourselves. So to save my breath, a cut and paste will work this time.
Critics of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin. This is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ. Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26). While this false belief may be held by some, it is not a part of the teachings of any true Christian church (Romans 3:8).
A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.
The Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful – that a sinful nature is a part of all of us (Romans 3:10). This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. Thinking that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation is not only unscriptural, but arrogant (James 2:10). If we are not eternally secure, this sinning will cause us to lose our salvation, but how much sin is too much? There is no scriptural “yardstick” given to tell us how many or what kind of sins are enough to void our salvation. Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual game of Russian Roulette; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not.
Scriptural passages (Ephesians 2:8-9, Isaiah 64:6) indicate that our attempts at good deeds will never earn us a place in heaven. We cannot make up for our past, present, or future sins by doing good works. A saved believer will, as a natural product of their faith, shun sin and practice good works (James 2:18). If “once saved, always saved” is not true, then by necessity we are saved both by our faith and our works. If we can do sinful things, or not do good things (James 4:17) and lose our security, then our good deeds are a part of our salvation. This concept is contradictory to Scripture. It also creates an unlivable scenario where we have to try to do enough good to outweigh our sinful natures. The doctrine of “eternal security” goes hand in hand with the doctrine of “saved by faith alone.” To deny eternal security is to endorse a “faith plus works” salvation system.
allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm
S
Soutane
Guest
I can cut and paste too:
Assurance of Salvation?
There are few more confusing topics than salvation. It goes beyond the standard question posed by Fundamentalists: “Have you been saved?” What the question also means is: “Don’t you wish you had the assurance of salvation?” Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance.
All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.
Kenneth E. Hagin, a well-known Pentecostal televangelist from the “Word Faith” wing of Protestantism, asserts that this assurance of salvation comes through being “born again”: “Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Though much of Hagin’s theology is considered bizarre in Protestant circles, his explanation of being born again could be endorsed by millions of Evangelical Protestants. In his booklet, The New Birth, Hagin writes, “The new birth is a necessity to being saved. Through the new birth you come into the right relationship with God.”
According to Hagin, there are many things that this new birth is not. “The new birth is not: confirmation, church membership, water baptism, the taking of sacraments, observing religious duties, an intellectual reception of Christianity, orthodoxy of faith, going to church, saying prayers, reading the Bible, being moral, being cultured or refined, doing good deeds, doing your best, nor any of the many other things some men are trusting in to save them.” Those who have obtained the new birth “did the one thing necessary: they accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior by repenting and turning to God with the whole heart as a little child.” That one act of the will, he explains, is all they needed to do. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.
Does this sound too good to be true? Yes, but nevertheless, it is something many Protestants claim. Take a look at what Wilson Ewin, the author of a booklet called There is Therefore Now No Condemnation, says. He writes that “the person who places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood shed at Calvary is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. No personal breaking of God’s or man’s laws or commandments can nullify that status.”
“To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption,” argues Ewin, and this is something he can say only because he confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively with our individual appropriation of that redemption. The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.
Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.
Assurance of Salvation?
There are few more confusing topics than salvation. It goes beyond the standard question posed by Fundamentalists: “Have you been saved?” What the question also means is: “Don’t you wish you had the assurance of salvation?” Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance.
All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.
Kenneth E. Hagin, a well-known Pentecostal televangelist from the “Word Faith” wing of Protestantism, asserts that this assurance of salvation comes through being “born again”: “Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Though much of Hagin’s theology is considered bizarre in Protestant circles, his explanation of being born again could be endorsed by millions of Evangelical Protestants. In his booklet, The New Birth, Hagin writes, “The new birth is a necessity to being saved. Through the new birth you come into the right relationship with God.”
According to Hagin, there are many things that this new birth is not. “The new birth is not: confirmation, church membership, water baptism, the taking of sacraments, observing religious duties, an intellectual reception of Christianity, orthodoxy of faith, going to church, saying prayers, reading the Bible, being moral, being cultured or refined, doing good deeds, doing your best, nor any of the many other things some men are trusting in to save them.” Those who have obtained the new birth “did the one thing necessary: they accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior by repenting and turning to God with the whole heart as a little child.” That one act of the will, he explains, is all they needed to do. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.
Does this sound too good to be true? Yes, but nevertheless, it is something many Protestants claim. Take a look at what Wilson Ewin, the author of a booklet called There is Therefore Now No Condemnation, says. He writes that “the person who places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood shed at Calvary is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. No personal breaking of God’s or man’s laws or commandments can nullify that status.”
“To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption,” argues Ewin, and this is something he can say only because he confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively with our individual appropriation of that redemption. The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.
Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born “saved,” with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.
S
Soutane
Guest
You Can’t Lose Heaven?
Ewin says that “no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace. True, sinful conduct always lessens one’s fellowship with Christ, limits his contribution to God’s work and can result in serious disciplinary action by the Holy Spirit.”
One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.
The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
Can You Know?
Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is now in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The “knowability” of salvation is a different question than the “loseability” of salvation.
From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the “Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’”
Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: “The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”
Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.
Ewin says that “no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace. True, sinful conduct always lessens one’s fellowship with Christ, limits his contribution to God’s work and can result in serious disciplinary action by the Holy Spirit.”
One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.
The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
Can You Know?
Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is now in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The “knowability” of salvation is a different question than the “loseability” of salvation.
From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the “Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’”
Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: “The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”
Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.
S
Soutane
Guest
But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.
One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).
Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, “It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.
There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.
Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.
The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.
For example, Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
What To Say
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises ofworking out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. Indeed, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, “By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10), “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20), “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).
Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, “It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.
There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.
Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.
The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.
For example, Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
What To Say
“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises ofworking out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
S
Soutane
Guest
Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.A person who considers salvation a onr time event that can never be revoked and that salvation cannot be lost because of mortal sin is cherry-picking the Bible and wagering his soul.I trust in the words of Jesus Christ as above.Period.
R
raumzeitmc2
Guest
Which of course it most certainly does, for *what sin *can cause them to lose their salvation?
Answer: None!
Anyone with the brain of a Sea Tick ought to see this plainly! Why even Luther (in his saner moments) understood it. See my post here.
But note this:
No surprise then that anyone with a grain of honesty and common sense knows that OSAS does indeed give Christians a license to sin! The gross immorality of Luther and his followers (with perhaps a few notable exceptions) proves as much. Or do you suppose that a certain Valentine Ickelsamer wrote the following to Luther for nothing?
“What Rome had to hear for a long time, we say of you: ‘The nearer to Wittenberg, the worse the Christians.’”
Luther and Lutherdom, H. Denifle, p. 24. ISBN 1112168176
But read a little history. All this is just the tip of the iceberg.
S
Soutane
Guest
Or the answer usually is because they’re a new creature in God they cannot sin(There goes free will)or if they do sin they weren’t really saved after all.Talk about rationalization and having your cake and eating it too.
S
Soutane
Guest
Calvin invented OSAS but Luther embraced it because he was a Catholic priest who suffered from scrupulosity,a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder and it was in response to the anxiety that his OCD caused that he invented this man-made heresy,which was unknown for the first 1500 years of Catholic Christianity…
“Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual game of Russian Roulette; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not”
Fortunately Christ gave us the Sacrament of Confession or Reconciliation in order that we may confess our sins,gain grace from the efficacy of the sacrament itself and strengthen our resolve against further sin.He recognized that we are all sinners and that is why he instituted this sacrament."How many times should we forgive,Lord?“70 TIMES 7”… Confession by the way does NOT give Catholics license to sin as absolution may legitimately be with held.OSAS is a false sinful heresy(presumption)that is leading a plethora of souls along the wide and easy path.Christ Himself said we must persevere until the end.
“Without eternal security, the Bible would describe a situation where Christianity is a perpetual game of Russian Roulette; a life in which condemnation and salvation alternate every time we sin and confess, and we never know if we’re saved or not”
Fortunately Christ gave us the Sacrament of Confession or Reconciliation in order that we may confess our sins,gain grace from the efficacy of the sacrament itself and strengthen our resolve against further sin.He recognized that we are all sinners and that is why he instituted this sacrament."How many times should we forgive,Lord?“70 TIMES 7”… Confession by the way does NOT give Catholics license to sin as absolution may legitimately be with held.OSAS is a false sinful heresy(presumption)that is leading a plethora of souls along the wide and easy path.Christ Himself said we must persevere until the end.
S
Soutane
Guest
The following is a letter that was written by a former proponent of OSAS to Karl Keating:
"In the 19 years I spent as an Evangelical among the Plymouth Brethren, I heard many sermons on the eternal security of the believer. I gave a few myself. What you describe in your hypothetical example, I lived.
"A ‘professing believer’ who claims to be born-again and departs from truth is said to have a ‘false profession.’ I have seen sincere people experience nervous breakdowns over their concern as to whether or not they had truly been born again or were being deceived. There used to be a well-known independent Baptist preacher who used to delight in ‘saving’ Baptist preachers who had ‘false professions.’ His name was L. R. Shelton, and he wrote a book called ‘How the Lord Saved a Baptist Preacher.’
"For a number of years I struggled with this insidious teaching in my own life. Had I really believed rightly? Was I really saved? Was I truly born again? How could I have true assurance of salvation? Had I truly repented?
"The doubts, uncertainty, and fear can be paralyzing. Fundamentalists who believe ‘once saved, always saved’ trumpet this false doctrine, but what they are actually doing is trying to persuade themselves that it is the truth. In the quiet honesty of their hearts, they question it.
"A close friend of mine who believed the doctrine of eternal security for many years used to ask me why Catholics weren’t terrified of the possibility of being lost since they lacked the assurance that he possessed. I would explain to him that Catholics neither presume God’s grace or despair of it.
“I would ask him if he believed that he was created in the image and likeness of God, and he would affirm that he did. It was easy at that point to demonstrate the reality of free will in our experience and as an attribute that we possess as children of God. By the way, this man, at the age of 59, is currently in an RCIA class!”
Catholics do not have false assurance we have HOPE.You know…Faith,HOPE,and Charity.
"In the 19 years I spent as an Evangelical among the Plymouth Brethren, I heard many sermons on the eternal security of the believer. I gave a few myself. What you describe in your hypothetical example, I lived.
"A ‘professing believer’ who claims to be born-again and departs from truth is said to have a ‘false profession.’ I have seen sincere people experience nervous breakdowns over their concern as to whether or not they had truly been born again or were being deceived. There used to be a well-known independent Baptist preacher who used to delight in ‘saving’ Baptist preachers who had ‘false professions.’ His name was L. R. Shelton, and he wrote a book called ‘How the Lord Saved a Baptist Preacher.’
"For a number of years I struggled with this insidious teaching in my own life. Had I really believed rightly? Was I really saved? Was I truly born again? How could I have true assurance of salvation? Had I truly repented?
"The doubts, uncertainty, and fear can be paralyzing. Fundamentalists who believe ‘once saved, always saved’ trumpet this false doctrine, but what they are actually doing is trying to persuade themselves that it is the truth. In the quiet honesty of their hearts, they question it.
"A close friend of mine who believed the doctrine of eternal security for many years used to ask me why Catholics weren’t terrified of the possibility of being lost since they lacked the assurance that he possessed. I would explain to him that Catholics neither presume God’s grace or despair of it.
“I would ask him if he believed that he was created in the image and likeness of God, and he would affirm that he did. It was easy at that point to demonstrate the reality of free will in our experience and as an attribute that we possess as children of God. By the way, this man, at the age of 59, is currently in an RCIA class!”
Catholics do not have false assurance we have HOPE.You know…Faith,HOPE,and Charity.
B
brkn1
Guest
The new creature (incorruptible nature) is the quickened spirit that results from having the Holy Spirit indwell a born again believer.
The old creature (corruptible nature) will still also exists in a believer. There will still be a battle during a believer’s earthly life, but the victory was already won by Christ. There will be rewards for a believer that runs the race well, as Paul explained. A believer’s will is involved in that battle, but not in the obtaining of etrnal salvation by the gift of an incorruptible nature. That is done by the sovereign will and work of the Holy Spirit as Jesus told Nicodemas.
An unbeliever also has two natures in a sense. There is the old nature inherited by Adam and a dead spiritual nature, which cannot relate to God, since it is dead to God and at complete emnity with God. Even the best deeds that come from such a person is still sin in God’s eyes, since they originate from and therefore for self.
S
shawn38
Guest
Perhaps blindness impart prevents grasping of the concept.
Plainly stated that if you repent, profess, and sincerely believed in Jesus and were saved, you will live according to Christ.
If you choose to continue in sin, you never accepted Christ from the beginning. These would be false converts. Understand? Simple concept!
- I’ll just go to the priest that the local parish brings in from somewhere else and so I’ll never have to see him again.
- Confess my sins (or least the ones I’m not embarrassed too)
- And perform some penence (Rosary or Our Father prayers)
R
rbarcia
Guest
Ultimately those who obey Christ are God’s children.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
This is true, and I am not one that thinks I can sin as I please. That person has never converted.
Those who God saves will obey God’s voice. I have children. I don’t stop loving my children when they disobey, nor do I say, today I am your dad cause you confessed, but yesterday I was not, instead I discipline them. Like King David (who remained a child of God) suffered trials because of his sin.
Christians are set apart to do God’s will. And just like salvation is an act of God, so is staying saved. If God has the power to save through the death and resurrection, he has the power to keep you saved.
I know a phrase Catholics use is “we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.” This term has some truth, but not in the way catholics mean it. They usually say this to respond to someone evangelizing to them. The truth in the statement is really around what they are saved FROM.
We WERE saved, Christ saved us from the penalty of sin. Called justification,
We are being saved. God is saving us from the power of sin. This is called sanctification.
We will be saved. God will save us from the presence of sin. this is called Glorification.
Good works is the result:
Just like fruit is a result of seed. And the many other parables that use language like this.
Matthew 13:23
But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
Salvation is by God’s Grace, through Faith, and onto good works, but it is not through the works that we are saved. They just show we are.
Eph 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The Works will happen. As James says. If I have no works, I never had faith at all. It is a dead faith. Never had it.
James 2
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
Ultimately, I know that there are many that promote a type of Christianity that you say a sinner’s prayer and that is it. Those are false christians. Faith in God always manifests itself in the works of God.
God promises to keep us. What type of life is eternal is temporary.
John 10
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
Those who God justifies, he promises to glorify. And God does not go back on his promises.
Romans 8:28-30
We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God will complete the work he started…
Phil 1:6
6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.
It is not possible to truly become a child of God and trample the cross.
Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Those who claim to have been Christian and leave the faith were never Christians.
1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Christians will live a Christian Life. They will not be perfect. Christians do sin.
1 John 1
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
But a Christian does not continue in sin. But God cleans it through the Sanctification process.
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Often taking discipline.
Hebrews 12
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
This is true, and I am not one that thinks I can sin as I please. That person has never converted.
Those who God saves will obey God’s voice. I have children. I don’t stop loving my children when they disobey, nor do I say, today I am your dad cause you confessed, but yesterday I was not, instead I discipline them. Like King David (who remained a child of God) suffered trials because of his sin.
Christians are set apart to do God’s will. And just like salvation is an act of God, so is staying saved. If God has the power to save through the death and resurrection, he has the power to keep you saved.
I know a phrase Catholics use is “we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.” This term has some truth, but not in the way catholics mean it. They usually say this to respond to someone evangelizing to them. The truth in the statement is really around what they are saved FROM.
We WERE saved, Christ saved us from the penalty of sin. Called justification,
We are being saved. God is saving us from the power of sin. This is called sanctification.
We will be saved. God will save us from the presence of sin. this is called Glorification.
Good works is the result:
Just like fruit is a result of seed. And the many other parables that use language like this.
Matthew 13:23
But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
Salvation is by God’s Grace, through Faith, and onto good works, but it is not through the works that we are saved. They just show we are.
Eph 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The Works will happen. As James says. If I have no works, I never had faith at all. It is a dead faith. Never had it.
James 2
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
Ultimately, I know that there are many that promote a type of Christianity that you say a sinner’s prayer and that is it. Those are false christians. Faith in God always manifests itself in the works of God.
God promises to keep us. What type of life is eternal is temporary.
John 10
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
Those who God justifies, he promises to glorify. And God does not go back on his promises.
Romans 8:28-30
We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God will complete the work he started…
Phil 1:6
6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.
It is not possible to truly become a child of God and trample the cross.
Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Those who claim to have been Christian and leave the faith were never Christians.
1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Christians will live a Christian Life. They will not be perfect. Christians do sin.
1 John 1
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
But a Christian does not continue in sin. But God cleans it through the Sanctification process.
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Often taking discipline.
Hebrews 12
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
W
wmscott
Guest
These jabs at Catholic beliefs and practices are unnecessary and not very Christian like. They are not appreciated and can be offensive.
Now, where to begin? Going on your premise “Plainly stated that if you repent, profess, and sincerely believed in Jesus and were saved, you will live according to Christ. If you choose to continue in sin, you never accepted Christ from the beginning. These would be false converts. Understand? Simple concept!” By stating this then no one, and I do mean no one will ever receive salvation. Why? Because we are sinners and we will always be sinners. Yes some choose to sin but we all sin by our nature because we are imperfect beings and we sin. To say “if you repent, profess, and sincerely believed in Jesus and were saved, you will live according to Christ” Then that is saying that one will never sin again and is in a state of grace for the rest of his life. Tell me are your saved? If so, are you telling me that you are no longer a sinner? That you are in a state of grace? If you believe this way then you are not saved because you are guilty of the sin of presumption.
Since you are a OSAS type of person, I am going to assume that you need Biblical references to everything. So, I want you to consider the following Biblical quotes:
2 Peter 2: 20-21
20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
**Hebrews 3:6,14 **
6 but Christ was faithful as a son placed over his house. We are his house, if (only) we hold fast to our confidence and pride in our hope. 14 We have become partners of Christ if only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until the end,
**Colossians 1:22-23 **
22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
Lets condense it a little and let you go to the full text if you wish.
Mt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved. **Rom 11:22 **- remain in his kindness or you will be cut off. Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling. **1Cor 9:27 **- drive body for fear of being disqualified. 1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall. Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace. **2Tim 2:11-13 **- must hold out to the end to reign with Christ. Heb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away. Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains. Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling.
Taken from this cite: (LINK)
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
The Bible does not teach eternal salvation. The Bible warns Christians that they can “fall from grace” (Gal. 5:1-5), be “cut off” from salvation (Rom. 11:18-22), have their names removed from the Lamb’s Book of Life (Rev. 22:19), by committing certain sins and not repenting of them (cf. Eph. 5: 3-5; 1Cor. 6:9; Gal. 5:19, Rev. 21:6-8). In a chilling reminder of the Possibility of losing salvation by separating oneself from Christ, Paul says, “I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.” (1 Cor. 9:27).
SO dont let blindness prevent you from grasping of the concept.
S
Soutane
Guest
Oh Shawn you are revealing your “knowledge” of the Catholic Church which is about an inch deep and a mile wide.
R
romesweethome
Guest
I think this set of verses supports once saved always saved. How about you? 
john 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.** 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. **7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Those IN Jesus Christ(the true vine) are saved, right? right.
Those IN Jesus Christ(the True Vine), can be cut off from the true Vine(no longer saved).
They can wither, be thrown into the fire and burned. (are these words of salvation? is it opposite day?
peace, rsh
john 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.** 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. **7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Those IN Jesus Christ(the true vine) are saved, right? right.
Those IN Jesus Christ(the True Vine), can be cut off from the true Vine(no longer saved).
They can wither, be thrown into the fire and burned. (are these words of salvation? is it opposite day?
peace, rsh
B
brkn1
Guest
This chapter of John is about believers (“Every branch in me”) abiding in Christ so that they bear fruit (good works) which glorifies God.I think this set of verses supports once saved always saved. How about you?
john 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.** 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. **7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Those IN Jesus Christ(the true vine) are saved, right? right.
Those IN Jesus Christ(the True Vine), can be cut off from the true Vine(no longer saved).
They can wither, be thrown into the fire and burned. (are these words of salvation? is it opposite day?
peace, rsh
Those believers that do not abide in obedience to Christ will not bear fruit and their testimony will be worthless among men.
Your boldened verse 6 is very different than the KJV: “6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
Your version seems to deliberately delete the idea that men gather and cast the branches into the fire, since it is not men, but angels, that gather and cast the condemned into hell.
This discrepancy using men, instead of angels, points to the idea that Jesus was not talking about hell and salvation, but to the value of a believer’s fruit which glorifies God before men.
A believer who does not abide “cannot bear fruit” or “bear witness” that remains. There will be no rewards for such a believer when Christ judges him, but the believer will still barely be saved, since he is still saved through faith in Christ and not by works.
- Status