Once Saved Always Saved

[brb3]

What about Judas?By your lights(I presume)he was “saved”,yet he betrayed Christ,then committed suicide out of remorse?

Judas was not a true believer. He was a tare among the wheat.

 

[brb3]

Kenneth E. Hagin, a well-known Pentecostal televangelist from the “Word Faith” wing of Protestantism, asserts that this assurance of salvation comes through being “born again”: “Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Though much of Hagin’s theology is considered bizarre in Protestant circles, his explanation of being born again could be endorsed by millions of Evangelical Protestants. In his booklet, The New Birth, Hagin writes, “The new birth is a necessity to being saved. Through the new birth you come into the right relationship with God.”

According to Hagin, there are many things that this new birth is not. “The new birth is not: confirmation, church membership, water baptism, the taking of sacraments, observing religious duties, an intellectual reception of Christianity, orthodoxy of faith, going to church, saying prayers, reading the Bible, being moral, being cultured or refined, doing good deeds, doing your best, nor any of the many other things some men are trusting in to save them.” Those who have obtained the new birth “did the one thing necessary: they accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior by repenting and turning to God with the whole heart as a little child.” That one act of the will, he explains, is all they needed to do. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?

Absolutely ! He is describing Rebirth … not perseverance.

Perseverance IS : receipt of the sacraments, linkage to the Church, being righteous, doing good works via beatitudes, keeping the 2 great laws of Christ, prayer, Bible devotion, charity, etc.

OSAS = Rebirth + perseverance … per John MacArthur, and the scriptures.

 

[fbl9]

Perhaps blindness impart prevents grasping of the concept.

or is groping in blindness that cause one to lack onto such a teaching

Plainly stated that if you repent, profess, and sincerely believed in Jesus and were saved, you will live according to Christ.

yet scripture is littered with warnings to believers to be careful.

If you choose to continue in sin, you never accepted Christ from the beginning. These would be false converts. Understand? Simple concept!

either one must remain sinless or they don’t beleive

1. I’ll just go to the priest that the local parish brings in from somewhere else and so I’ll never have to see him again.

then you are not thinking of God but fearing man insted.

1. Confess my sins (or least the ones I’m not embarrassed too)

then God will not forgive the sins you did confess because you sought to decieve the confessor.

1. And perform some penence (Rosary or Our Father prayers)

got an issue with praying?

And if I happen to die with unabsolved sins, I’ll have my family pay some indulgences to help me get out of purgatory.

see #2 there will be no purgatory for you…

 

[fbl9]

Absolutely ! He is describing Rebirth … not perseverance.

Perseverance IS : receipt of the sacraments, linkage to the Church, being righteous, doing good works via beatitudes, keeping the 2 great laws of Christ, prayer, Bible devotion, charity, etc.

OSAS = Rebirth + perseverance … per John MacArthur, and the scriptures.

bet yuh didn’t know mr. MacArthur beleives osas to be a license to sin…he teachs that if one falls away from the faith they are still saved in that state.

 

[Soutane]

Absolutely ! He is describing Rebirth … not perseverance.

Perseverance IS : receipt of the sacraments, linkage to the Church, being righteous, doing good works via beatitudes, keeping the 2 great laws of Christ, prayer, Bible devotion, charity, etc.

OSAS = Rebirth + perseverance … per John MacArthur, and the scriptures.

As a Catholic(Although,I note with a lowercase “c”)You dare to cite John MacArthur a notorious anti-Catholic bigot as some kind of authority(specious,spurious,malignant)on a Catholic website?You have no shame,sir.

"He is describing Rebirth … not perseverance."According to the VERY fallible and totally sans ANY Scriptural authority you.Where’s a yawning emoticon when you need one?

 

[brb3]

bet yuh didn’t know mr. MacArthur beleives osas to be a license to sin…he teachs that if one falls away from the faith they are still saved in that state.

He does not teach the elect are free to sin w/o repentance. He teaches perseverance as an imperative.

 

[Soutane]

Judas was not a true believer. He was a tare among the wheat.

Were you there at the beginning?It’s probable that he did have faith initially(why else follow Christ for 3 years)then he gave into temptation and started stealing from the community purse,culminating in his selling Christ and committing suicide out of remorse.If at any time Judas had asked for forgiveness it would have been granted him.Peter also sinned and Christ forgave him.But if Peter had not expressed remorse(Peter,do you love me?Yes Lord you know I love you)Peter would NOT have been forgiven his sins and instead of becoming the first Pope but dying with unconfessed and unforgiven sins he would be presently residing with Judas et al.Anyone can be a tare.You very well could be a tare and you’ll never know unless “you persevere to the end”(Christ’s words,not mine)and "WORK out your salvation in fear and trembling"Pope St Peter’s words,not mine)

I’ll take the Hope of salvation over the true insecurity(as you’ll never know that you’re Truly saved)of the man-made doctrine of a scrupoulous heretical Catholic Priest any day.

 

[brb3]

You dare to cite John MacArthur a notorious anti-Catholic bigot as some kind of authority(specious,spurious,malignant)on a Catholic website?

He speaks from the heart. Yes, he berates the Catholic ‘structure’ … and has some wrong beliefs on the Church. Nevertheless, he is an outstanding teacher of scripture, and a gifted preacher. He would be a great asset to the Church, if he could be proved/shown wrong on his beliefs about the Church, from scripture.

 

[Soutane]

He does not teach the elect are free to sin w/o repentance. He teaches perseverance as an imperative.

The man is an anti-Catholic Bigot and I resent your quoting him to True Catholics as an authority.Merely mentioning that bigot’s name on a Catholic website is a provocation.

MacArthur on Catholicism:

"…because the Catholic Church claims to be true Christianity, and when we reverse 450 years of history, and just throw our arms around the Roman system, which I think we have to say, John, in all honesty, is not a group of wayward brothers but is an APOSTATE FORM OF CHRISTIANITY. It is a FALSE RELIGION, it is another religion.

When you throw your arms around that you literally have to undo any doctrinal distinction. In fact, ECT doesn’t just do that implicitly, they do that explicitly. In the document, in effect, they say, “we have to accept all baptized Roman Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ.” In an article that followed that up in Christianity Today, J. I. Packer said, “We should acknowledge as brothers and sisters in Christ, anyone who lives to the highest ideals of their communion.” MY RESPONSE TO THAT IS THE OPPOSITE… I maybe could fellowship with a BAD Roman Catholic, that is, one who has rejected the system, but was still in the church and came to know Christ. But one who holds the highest ideals of Roman Catholicism—on what grounds do I have spiritual unity? And when you get spiritual leaders from both churches, coming together to sign a common effort—you may say that it is to fight a cultural war, but people are going to see it as confusion over doctrine. Well, I might be a little bit radical on this, but I will go ahead. I think the way we can work together on it is for the Catholics to work against those things, like they want to work against them, and we will work against those things, like we want to work against them, but we can’t really throw our arms around each other in a common effort because that confounds the issue of spiritual truth". (Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity)

 

[Soutane]

He speaks from the heart. Yes, he berates the Catholic ‘structure’ … and has some wrong beliefs on the Church. Nevertheless, he is an outstanding teacher of scripture, and a gifted preacher. He would be a great asset to the Church, if he could be proved/shown wrong on his beliefs about the Church, from scripture.

He is wrong,unChristlike an an unregenerate bigot.
Are you sir,truly in fact a Catholic?One who subscribes to all dogmas of the Church,believes in the Divine origin of the Holy Catholic Church founded by God,Himself,if I may ask?If you do not wish to answer that is your right,but I am quite curious.

 

[brb3]

It’s probable that he did have faith initially(why else follow Christ for 3 years)then he gave into temptation and started stealing from the community purse,culminating in his selling Christ and committing suicide out of remorse.If at any time Judas had asked for forgiveness it would have been granted him.Peter also sinned and Christ forgave him.But if Peter had not expressed remorse(Peter,do you love me?Yes Lord you know I love you)

Christ chose him, as directed by the Father. Nevertheless, Christ knew from the beginning Judas was not to take the Great Commission to all the world. Judas was curious about Christ, but not devoted to Christ or his style of leadership. Just like the Temple leaders, he was not convinced Jesus was the Christ, and his sympathies were with them, not Christ.

The O.T. prophesy speaks of the False Shepherd who would betray the Messiah to the other 3 false shepherds. Is a false shepherd someone who has been saved ? And, as Paul teaches in Hebrews,.-----one to whom the Gospel is preached & eats at the Lord’s table, yet later rejects Christ [crucifies Christ anew]… that one cannot be restored to the flock.

 

[brb3]

Well, I might be a little bit radical on this, but I will go ahead. I think the way we can work together on it is for the Catholics to work against those things, like they want to work against them, and we will work against those things, like we want to work against them, but we can’t really throw our arms around each other in a common effort because that confounds the issue of spiritual truth". (Irreconcilable Differences: Catholics, Evangelicals, and the New Quest for Unity)

See, he admits his ideas on Catholicism are ‘radical’. If he could be shown his error from scripture, he would recant.

 

[brb3]

He is wrong,unChristlike an an unregenerate bigot.
Are you sir,truly in fact a Catholic?One who subscribes to all dogmas of the Church,believes in the Divine origin of the Holy Catholic Church founded by God,Himself,if I may ask?If you do not wish to answer that is your right,but I am quite curious.

Yes, every word of the Nicene Creed. One Holy and Apostolic Church especially, and also her teaching on Ecumenism with Protestants. John Mac is a type of Apollos … a zealot, but not fully informed on the entire truths on the Church. You/I need to instruct him in the higher truths …

 

[Soutane]

Christ chose him, as directed by the Father. Nevertheless, Christ knew from the beginning Judas was not to take the Great Commission to all the world. Judas was curious about Christ, but not devoted to Christ or his style of leadership. Just like the Temple leaders, he was not convinced Jesus was the Christ, and his sympathies were with them, not Christ.

The O.T. prophesy speaks of the False Shepherd who would betray the Messiah to the other 3 false shepherds. Is a false shepherd someone who has been saved ? And, as Paul teaches in Hebrews,.-----one to whom the Gospel is preached & eats at the Lord’s table, yet later rejects Christ [crucifies Christ anew]… that one cannot be restored to the flock.

Of course what you’re saying is true but God did not create,preordain,nor predestine Judas to be Christ’s betrayer.Judas wasn’t an evil robot programmed by God in order that Christ’s Sacrifice could take place.He gave Judas Free Will to do good or evil a tremendous gift that He gives to ALL of us because He never forces His Love on anyone.Judas had the Free Will to repent or not,instead he despaired and sinned against the Holy Spirit by offing himself.
With sinners God is like a loving mother with a son on death row.He loves that sinner without reservation but it is the son’s choice to reject that love and die unforgiven and forfeit his place in Paradise which only reinforces the fallacy of OSAS.

 

[Soutane]

Yes, every word of the Nicene Creed. One Holy and Apostolic Church especially, and also her teaching on Ecumenism with Protestants. John Mac is a type of Apollos … a zealot, but not fully informed on the entire truths on the Church. You/I need to instruct him in the higher truths …

If I have misinterpreted your intent,I apologise,but I react poorly to anti-Catholic bigotry having been repeatedly subjected to it in my youth.Please,I beg you in any further interaction between us,PLEASE don’t quote that man to me.Peace.Gordon.

 

[brb3]

God did not create,preordain,nor predestine Judas to be Christ’s betrayer.Judas wasn’t an evil robot programmed by God in order that Christ’s Sacrifice could take place.He gave Judas Free Will to do good or evil a tremendous gift that He gives to ALL of us because He never forces His Love on anyone.Judas had the Free Will to repent or not,instead he despaired and sinned against the Holy Spirit by offing himself.

The OT prophesy about Judas and the other false shepherds was inspired writing for pen of Zechariah / Chp 11 & 12 , many hundred years before the 1st Century AD.

The fact God knows my / your beginning - ending … does not mean we are robots, neither did it apply to Judas.

Christ did not have to select additional disciples, til he came across one who would betray him. God knew from the creation/fall of Adam … that Judas would do his betrayal.

Just as we can see our past with 20/20 vision … God can foresee our futures. Nothing is impossible for God to know about his creation. Recall it was satan that tempted Judas to do his betrayal … yet, God knows what satan will do before he does it. All evil/sin is from satan … Judas’ actions are not of God, but are known before they occur.

This is why OSAS is valid. Those God saves, he saves eternally … having foreseen our last day.

 

[Soutane]

The OT prophesy about Judas and the other false shepherds was inspired writing for pen of Zechariah / Chp 11 & 12 , many hundred years before the 1st Century AD.

The fact God knows my / your beginning - ending … does not mean we are robots, neither did it apply to Judas.

Christ did not have to select additional disciples, til he came across one who would betray him. God knew from the creation/fall of Adam … that Judas would do his betrayal.

Just as we can see our past with 20/20 vision … God can foresee our futures. Nothing is impossible for God to know about his creation. Recall it was satan that tempted Judas to do his betrayal … yet, God knows what satan will do before he does it. All evil/sin is from satan … Judas’ actions are not of God, but are known before they occur.

This is why OSAS is valid. Those God saves, he saves eternally … having foreseen our last day.

He HAS forseen our last day but He does not predestine it,nor does he create us to be damned-we accomplish that all on our own even though from the beginning He knows who will be saved and who will be damned.I think you’re confusing OSAS with the fact that God knows every hair on my head,every sparrow that(will) falls and that He certainly before my creation knew my final destination.God did not create me to be damned OR to be saved.He gave me Free Will to sin or not.

I find it strange that a professed Roman Catholic is an adherent to such a Calvinistic Protestant doctrine.You puzzle me.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

I find it strange that a professed Roman Catholic is an adherent to such a Calvinistic Protestant doctrine.You puzzle me.

Sadly, folks are often taken in by theological dunces like Calvin simply because they fail to understand and appreciate the profound meaning of the Incarnation.

I would therefore encourage our “professed Catholic” friend, as well as our OSAS friends, if they are sincerely interested in truth (and would have some hope of extricating themselves from Calvin’s deceit), to ponder the words of a certain Donatist named Ticonius (370 – 390), whose writings St. Augustine greatly respected.

We may say that the whole Church is the Son of man, since the Church, that is, the children of God assembled in one body, is said to be the Son of God, one man, and even God, according to the words of the Apostles: “against all that is called God or is venerated” (2 Thess. 2:4). What is here called God, is the Church.

Ticonius, Book of the Seven Rules.

Quoted in, The Whole Christ, Emile Mersch, S. J. (1890-1940), (first French edition in1933), 1938, 1962, p. 418.

 

[Soutane]

I have a feeling that our friends will reject the writings of the Fathers as they are not Scripture,however they have rejected reams of scripture that we have provided that utterly demolish the Calvinistic heresy and utter conceit of OSAS.IT’s like talking to a wall and just as frustrating.Good point though and I agree with you completely.

 

[brb3]

He does not predestine it,nor does he create us to be damned-we accomplish that all on our own even though from the beginning He knows who will be saved and who will be damned.I think you’re confusing OSAS with the fact that God knows every hair on my head,every sparrow that(will) falls and that He certainly before my creation knew my final destination.God did not create me to be damned OR to be saved.He gave me Free Will to sin or not.

God knows all about us. Not just the physical characteristics … but even our thoughts. This is clearly taught in OT & NT scriptures. David speaks of in Psalms … and Christ speaks of in Gospels. And Christ accepted all prophesy of David as inspired word.

How do you explain how the OT prophets could describe the future ACTIONS of their progeny many years later ? Predestination is a difficult topic … but, it is biblical and a fact. How we define it and weave FREE WILL into it is the Key.

Do this for us … and we will attempt to formulate a consistent, biblical view. But, here we have wandered off topic of OSAS … slightly