Once Saved Always Saved

[shawn38]

These jabs at Catholic beliefs and practices are unnecessary and not very Christian like. They are not appreciated and can be offensive. QUOTE]

Not a jab. I was Catholic. Every priest I’ve known always made light of the fact that members chose the visiting priest. Very few parishioners ever confessed their sins to thier priest for they see him every week. It’s not meant to be offensive. Is any part of what I said inaccurate?

 

[Greenbrier]

Sadly, folks are often taken in by theological dunces like Calvin simply because they fail to understand and appreciate the profound meaning of the Incarnation.
.

What is this penchant you people have for referring to dead people as dunces or idiots or fools? Is it just because they’re Protestant? What kind of reaction would we get if we referred to St. Thomas More as a bloodthirsty bigot (which he was btw)?

And until you can come up with anything that measures up to the Institutes of the Christian Religion, I’m just going to disregard your commentary as the crowing of an ignoramus.

 

[Greenbrier]

God did not create,preordain,nor predestine Judas to be Christ’s betrayer.Judas wasn’t an evil robot programmed by God in order that Christ’s Sacrifice could take place.He gave Judas Free Will to do good or evil a tremendous gift that He gives to ALL of us because He never forces His Love on anyone.Judas had the Free Will to repent or not,instead he despaired and sinned against the Holy Spirit by offing himself.

And yet, I must draw your attention back to the sermon of St. Peter given in the second chapter of Acts (vv. 22-24) where he says,

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

A definite plan is a plan laid out in every detail, including the role of Judas. Judas betrayed Our Lord because that is what he was in the story to do, and having done so, he “went to his place”.

In Acts 4:24b-28 Peter and John, upon release from prison pray together with the Church in Jerusalem in very much the same sort of way:

"Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

"‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’—
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

How can anyone doubt that God not only knew that Christ would be betrayed and at whose hands He would be betrayed but also ordained and predestined them to act as they did? Scripture could not be more clear.

 

[Soutane]

And yet, I must draw your attention back to the sermon of St. Peter given in the second chapter of Acts (vv. 22-24) where he says,

A definite plan is a plan laid out in every detail, including the role of Judas. Judas betrayed Our Lord because that is what he was in the story to do, and having done so, he “went to his place”.

In Acts 4:24b-28 Peter and John, upon release from prison pray together with the Church in Jerusalem in very much the same sort of way:

How can anyone doubt that God not only knew that Christ would be betrayed and at whose hands He would be betrayed but also ordained and predestined them to act as they did? Scripture could not be more clear.

I don’t for one instant doubt that God from before time began that God not only knew that Christ would be betrayed and at whose hands He would be betrayed.I don’t believe for one indtant that God pre-ordained or pre-prpgrammed these people as if they were mere robots and thus consign them to hell without their exercise of Free Will.He KNEW exactly what would happen but didn’t make it happen.

My Bible says 27:"Indeed they gathered in this city against your Holy Servant Jesus whom you annointed,Herod and Pontious Pilate together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel to do what your hand and your will had long ago planned to take place"This does not imply predestination to me other than God knew how these people would act and He ALLOWED it.

 

[Soutane]

I’m always amazed at how many non-Catholic Christians interpret EVERYTHING in the Bible absolutely literally with the exception of John:6.

 

[Soutane]

Romans8 :12"12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it."It does NOT refer to absolute assurance.

Romans 6:15-16" 15"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"This saus that sin leads to DEATH.

Matthew 5:27-30"Murder
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother**will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,[c]’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d]

Adultery
27"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."Jesus because of our belief in Him does bot discharge us from moral law.There are CONSEQUENCES for sinning.

Matthew 18:8-9:“If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”

See also:Matthew 13:40-42; Matthew 18:23-35 & Matthew 6:14-15 (we must forgive others); Romans 11:17-23; John 15:1-11; Galatians 5:1; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 5:19.

I repeat OSAS did not exist for the first 1500 years of Christianity.It was invented by a dusaffected Catholic Priest named Calvin.I can play Scriptural chess with you all day long,but to what end?**

 

[Greenbrier]

I don’t for one instant doubt that God from before time began that God not only knew that Christ would be betrayed and at whose hands He would be betrayed.I don’t believe for one indtant that God pre-ordained or pre-prpgrammed these people as if they were mere robots and thus consign them to hell without their exercise of Free Will.He KNEW exactly what would happen but didn’t make it happen.

My Bible says 27:"Indeed they gathered in this city against your Holy Servant Jesus whom you annointed,Herod and Pontious Pilate together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel to do what your hand and your will had long ago planned to take place"This does not imply predestination to me other than God knew how these people would act and He ALLOWED it.

Two points here:

1. For God, an eternal Being, having no beginning and end, there can be no disconnect between knowledge and will. Nothing surprises God and everything that comes to pass does so according to the will of Him Who knows the end from the beginning. It cannot be otherwise without making God Himself subject to the wills of creatures.
2. Your Bible renders the passage more or less the same as mine, reference is clearly made to the involvement of God’s will in the planning and execution of the death of Christ, as it says, "what your hand and your will planned to take place.

Your reading is clouded by an addiction to “free will”.

 

[Greenbrier]

I’m always amazed at how many non-Catholic Christians interpret EVERYTHING in the Bible absolutely literally with the exception of John:6.

We interpret according to context. In John 6 the Eucharist had not been instituted yet and Jesus clearly frames his words in reference to His being the manna from Heaven received by faith. The fact that some left Him saying it was too hard a saying doesn’t speak to any literal intent so much as to their unwillingness to grasp that He, Christ, is the culmination and realization of the providence of God for Israel, in fact the Messiah.

 

[Soutane]

We interpret according to context. In John 6 the Eucharist had not been instituted yet and Jesus clearly frames his words in reference to His being the manna from Heaven received by faith. The fact that some left Him saying it was too hard a saying doesn’t speak to any literal intent so much as to their unwillingness to grasp that He, Christ, is the culmination and realization of the providence of God for Israel, in fact the Messiah.

According to your very fallible and non-authoritative interpretation.I repeat,everything literal except John .6.

 

[Soutane]

Two points here:

1. For God, an eternal Being, having no beginning and end, there can be no disconnect between knowledge and will. Nothing surprises God and everything that comes to pass does so according to the will of Him Who knows the end from the beginning. It cannot be otherwise without making God Himself subject to the wills of creatures.
2. Your Bible renders the passage more or less the same as mine, reference is clearly made to the involvement of God’s will in the planning and execution of the death of Christ, as it says, "what your hand and your will planned to take place.

Your reading is clouded by an addiction to “free will”.

Your reading is clouded by an addiction to robotic,preprogrammed pre-destination which turns us into mere meat-puppets.

 

[Soutane]

I note that you did not address post#66.

 

[Greenbrier]

According to your very fallible and non-authoritative interpretation.I repeat,everything literal except John .6.

Well, every interpretation is fallible and most are non-authoritative so I don’t mind. We’re in the same boat.

 

[Greenbrier]

Your reading is clouded by an addiction to robotic,preprogrammed pre-destination which turns us into mere meat-puppets.

Okay, there’s just too much demonization and over-use of puerile adjectives here for me to take this very seriously. If you feel this was appropriate because I said your reading was clouded by an addiction to “free will” I willingly withdraw the remark, I have no desire to lead you into sin…or poor literary style.

 

[Greenbrier]

I note that you did not address post#66.

You have a very strange idea of Reformed Theology if you think those passages refute any part of it, but then, your rapid descent into name-calling tells me a lot about your grasp on these things.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

I don’t believe for one indtant that God pre-ordained or pre-prpgrammed these people as if they were mere robots and thus consign them to hell without their exercise of Free Will.He KNEW exactly what would happen but didn’t make it happen.

True! Men are not robots; they have free will. This is the constant teaching of the Church.

But a word of caution vis a vix free-will vs. predestination: this is an exceedingly complex subject which has taxed even the greatest minds.

Even so, let us (particularly our Protestant friends) be mindful of Augustine’s testimony:

God does not promise everything that he predicts. For he also predicts those things that he himself does not do, because he foreknows all that will be. He therefore predicts even the sins of human beings, which he could foreknow but not cause.

(Letter 140:48). The Grace of the New Testament.

Letters 100-155 (Works of Saint Augustine), New City Press (June 1, 2002) ISBN 1565481860 ISBN 9781565481862, p. 268.

Also consider this from The Whole Christ by Fr. Mersch, ch.3, Augustine and Pelagianism:

As we see, the demonstration resembles the soteriological argument that we have so often noticed. The ideas are the same, but arranged in inverse order. In the soteriological argument we conclude what the Head must be by considering what the members are; here St. Augustine argues in the same manner, but from the Head to the members. However, both methods bear the same testimony to our incorporation in Christ, for both are based upon the vital continuity and real unity that exist between Head and members. Let us now listen as Augustine proceeds with his argument.

Having shown that all the dignity of the Saviour’s human nature is a free grace of God, he immediately goes on to say that its power to communicate supernatural life is likewise a grace.

Let us therefore understand that our Head is the very source of grace; from Him grace flows into all His members, according to the capacity of each.

Every man who receives the faith is made a Christian by the very same grace whereby this man, from the first moment of his existence, was constituted Christ. We are born again of the same Spirit by whose power he was born; we receive the remission of our sins from the same Spirit who preserved him from sin of any kind.

Unquestionably God knew all these things before He brought them to pass. But this is precisely what we mean by the predestination of saints, which is nowhere more clearly exemplified than in the Holy of Holies Himself. Can anyone who rightly understands the Scripture deny this? We are told that the very Lord of glory was predestined, if He is considered as a man raised to the dignity of the Son of God.

The Apostle of the Gentiles exclaims in the opening verses of his epistle [to the Romans]:

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, which He had promised before by His prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning His Son, who was made to Him of the seed of David according to the flesh, who was predestinated .the Son of God in power according to the spirit of sanctification, by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead” (Rom. 1: 1-4, D.V.).

Jesus therefore was predestined, in order that He who was to be the Son of David according to the flesh should also be the Son of God in power according to the spirit of sanctification, because He was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. Thus was accomplished the ineffable assumption of man by the Word of God, so that being at once Son of God and Son of man, the same person is truly and properly called the Son of man by reason of the human nature that has been assumed, and the Son of God on account of the Only-begotten God by whom it was assumed. Hence there are not four, but only three Persons in God.

God had predestined this elevation of human nature to the highest possible dignity, just as the divinity could stoop no lower than it did in assuming human nature with the weaknesses of the flesh and in submitting even to the death of the Cross.

Now, just as this one man was predestined to be our Head, so we many are predestined to be His members. Here let all human merits be silent, for they perished in Adam; let only God’s grace reign, which reigns through Christ our Lord, the only Son of God and only Lord.

If one can find in our Head any merit prior to His ineffable generation, then may he hope to find some merits in us, His members, prior to the regeneration of the individual man. But His generation was not a reward; that He should be born of the Spirit and of the Virgin, free from any taint of sin, was a pure gift. And it is the same for us: to be born again of water and the Spirit is not a recompense for any good we have done, but a free gift. True it is that faith leads us to the Waters of regeneration; yet we cannot conclude from this that we have been the first to give, and that we receive regeneration as our reward. For He that gave us the Christ in whom we believe has likewise given us our faith in Christ. He who made the man Jesus to be the author and finisher of faith is Himself the source and perfection of men’s faith in Jesus! 7

Note 7 (p. 593). In Ps. 54, P. L., Vol. 36, 643.

pp. 405-406.

 

[brkn1]

So you’re saying that “a believer” (one who has “saving faith” - by OSAS “standards” anyway) but one who nevertheless has never borne any fruit, nor done any good works “is still saved through faith in Christ”?

No fruits, no works - just “faith”!

Well now, that *is *interesting! So much for “saving faith” automatically producing good works!

There will likely be many that have no works to show after it is “revealed by fire” (burned up as worthless).
Look at (1 Corinthians 3:15) : " 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
Such believers will not receive any rewards after judgement, but they will still enjoy the gift of salvation in Heaven. A gift is not a reward.

 

[Soutane]

Well, every interpretation is fallible and most are non-authoritative so I don’t mind. We’re in the same boat.

Not quite,mine might be non-authoritative and fallible but the interpretation of the Holy Catholic Church under the protection of the Holy Spirit is not.Having an infallible book without an inerrant interpreter makes no sense and is precisely what has given rise to 30,000+Protestant Christian denominations.

 

[Soutane]

You have a very strange idea of Reformed Theology if you think those passages refute any part of it, but then, your rapid descent into name-calling tells me a lot about your grasp on these things.

Please tell me how I name called?I object to that mischaracterization

Is this what you’re referring to?.. “robotic,preprogrammed pre-destination which turns us into mere meat-puppets.”
How am I calling names by using adjectives such as “robotic”,“preprogrammed”?These accurately reflect how I see Calvin’s mistaken theory of pre-destination.Meat-puppet is a descriptive noun of how I see our role in life should Calvin’s theory prove true.
I’ve apologised once to you for the intemporate words that I used in a prior post but I won’t in this instance as there is nothing remotely offensive about them. I note also that you chastised another poster for using less than flattering references to Calvin.I think that you’re being overly sensitive and you have descended into a classic ad hominum attack.

“your rapid descent into name-calling tells me a lot about your grasp on these things”.

I think YOU owe ME an apology

 

[Greenbrier]

But you still have to interpret your church, all you’ve done is move the epistemological problem back a step.

Your characterization of the Reformed scheme with people as “robotic,preprogrammed pre-destination which turns us into mere meat-puppets.” is inaccurate. I am not about to defend a perspective I do not hold, so I do not know what to say to this except that if this is what you think we believe, you are mistaken.

 

[Soutane]

I also do not appreciate the reference to "demonization"that you have used to characterise me somehow although I’m not sure in what respect