Once Saved Always Saved

[Soutane]

But you still have to interpret your church, all you’ve done is move the epistemological problem back a step.

Your characterization of the Reformed scheme with people as “robotic,preprogrammed pre-destination which turns us into mere meat-puppets.” is inaccurate. I am not about to defend a perspective I do not hold, so I do not know what to say to this except that if this is what you think we believe, you are mistaken.

I did not charcterize the Reformed scheme as such.I characterised Calvin’s THEORY of pre-destination which I thoroughly disagree with.I also note that you had no problem in dismissing cavalierly the Catholic Interpretation of John 6 and The True Presence.

 

[Soutane]

I also note that no apology seens to be forthcoming.

 

[Soutane]

What is this penchant you people have for referring to dead people as dunces or idiots or fools? Is it just because they’re Protestant? What kind of reaction would we get if we referred to St. Thomas More as a bloodthirsty bigot (which he was btw)?

And until you can come up with anything that measures up to the Institutes of the Christian Religion, I’m just going to disregard your commentary as the crowing of an ignoramus.

Tit for tat I see.And another ad hominum attack.

 

[Greenbrier]

I did not charcterize the Reformed scheme as such.I characterised Calvin’s THEORY of pre-destination which I thoroughly disagree with.I also note that you had no problem in dismissing cavalierly the Catholic Interpretation of John 6 and The True Presence.

I thought we were talking about the Reformed doctrine of predestination as it presents with regard to the perseverance of the redeemed. Calvin’s belief here is identical with that of the Reformed, this is why Reformed Christians are often called Calvinists.

I did not dismiss your interpretation of John 6. I offered and alternative. I did this because you insisted on bringing it onto this discussion even though it has nothing to do with “OSAS” and implied that there was some inconsistency in the Evangelical hermeneutic.

Let me tell you something, I know it is a commonplace of Catholic polemics to insist that Evangelicals are inconsistent, that they choose to understand one thing literally and another figuratively according to whim or confessional necessity, but this just isn’t true,. Certainly no more so than any corresponding insistence by us that your belief that John 6 MUST refer to a physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist represents a convenient reading into the text of Catholic dogma on the Sacrament.

 

[fbl9]

There will likely be many that have no works to show after it is “revealed by fire” (burned up as worthless).
Look at (1 Corinthians 3:15) : " 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
Such believers will not receive any rewards after judgement, but they will still enjoy the gift of salvation in Heaven. A gift is not a reward.

Please explain how ,say almsgiving,be a work that is straw.?What foundation is being built upon?
A proper understanding of these verses show that it is not good works or deeds that being burnt up rather what a man teaches and by Catholic standards osas, calvin’s predestination are works that are straw.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

What is this penchant you people have for referring to dead people as dunces or idiots or fools? Is it just because they’re Protestant?

No, Greenbrier, not because they were Protestants, but because they were, in fact, dunces! And a dunce is, after all, still a dunce, whether Catholic or Protestant or whatever! I’m sure you would agree. In any event, I’m quiet prepared to back up my harsh estimations (as well as stand corrected when it can be shown I’m wrong!).

What kind of reaction would we get if we referred to St. Thomas More as a bloodthirsty bigot (which he was btw)?

Well now, that’s quite a charge! Tell me, how so? And have you nothing to say about Calvin, who was without a doubt a *self-appointed * and rather brutal dictator?

And until you can come up with anything that measures up to the Institutes of the Christian Religion, I’m just going to disregard your commentary as the crowing of an ignoramus.

There’s no need to insult me personally, is there? What harm have I ever done you my friend? Certainly I was not speaking against you personally, but only against Calvin’s appallingly bad theology. So please don’t take such comments by me personally my friend.

But now let me ask you: have you actually ever read Calvin’s Institutes? Studied them? If so, just what in them do you find of theological note? Apart from where he retains something of his Catholic sensibilities and faith, I submit there is really very little, if anything, of consequence in his theology!

Rather, on virtually every page, the man shows himself to be - again not at you - an envenomed and pompous ignoramus. Now you may disagree, but just know that you will find, in the words of St. Peter Damian,

“the armed forces of the whole Church and the massed array of all the holy fathers ready to resist you.”

Letter 141:7, To the Chaplains of Duke Godfrey of Tuscany. 1066 A.D.

The Letters of Peter Damian, 121-150 (Fathers of the Church, Medieval Continuation), Owen J. Blum, tr., Catholic University Press; ISBN: 081321372X 978-0813213729, p. 115.

Peace.

 

[brkn1]

Please explain how ,say almsgiving,be a work that is straw.?What foundation is being built upon?
A proper understanding of these verses show that it is not good works or deeds that being burnt up rather what a man teaches and by Catholic standards osas, calvin’s predestination are works that are straw.

Almsgiving is a work of straw if it did not originate from the believer’s divine nature caused by the Holy Spirit. All work that originates from our self and not from the indwelling Spirit is worthless before God and will not be rewarded, even if it appears wonderful before man. Pharisees demonstrated this as they gave alms so that others (or even just themselves) could see them being generous etc. Christ rebuked such “good” works as self-serving and hypocritical. Such “good” works will be burnt up when tested before God.

 

[fbl9]

Almsgiving is a work of straw if it did not originate from the believer’s divine nature caused by the Holy Spirit. All work that originates from our self and not from the indwelling Spirit is worthless before God and will not be rewarded, even if it appears wonderful before man. Pharisees demonstrated this as they gave alms so that others (or even just themselves) could see them being generous etc. Christ rebuked such “good” works as self-serving and hypocritical. Such “good” works will be burnt up when tested before God.

if one was not a beleiver then they have no foundation. This scripture does not apply in the way you are trying to make it apply.
As for the Pharisee’s did not Jesus say they already have received their reward?So their reward can not be lost as they have already recieved it.

 

[Soutane]

Almsgiving is a work of straw if it did not originate from the believer’s divine nature caused by the Holy Spirit. All work that originates from our self and not from the indwelling Spirit is worthless before God and will not be rewarded, even if it appears wonderful before man. Pharisees demonstrated this as they gave alms so that others (or even just themselves) could see them being generous etc. Christ rebuked such “good” works as self-serving and hypocritical. Such “good” works will be burnt up when tested before God.

Which is the Catholic position exactly.The grace that we receive through Christ and His Sacraments excite good works in the believer.Without Christ our works are nothing.We perform our good works in the mystical sense of Personae Christi;we make Christ’s face present just like Blessed Theresa of Calcutta did when she answered His call,"Come be My Light"and through her good works with the poor she brought Him into the "dark holes"of Calcutta.

 

[Soutane]

On the subject of OSAS:

Isaiah 64:55 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?

How much more clear can this be?

 

[raumzeitmc2]

There will likely be many that have no works to show after it is “revealed by fire” (burned up as worthless).
Look at (1 Corinthians 3:15) : " 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
Such believers will not receive any rewards after judgement, but they will still enjoy the gift of salvation in Heaven. A gift is not a reward.

So you agree that good works do not automatically follow saving faith, that in fact, “true believers” can enter heaven having done zero works?

As for your statement that “a gift is not a reward.”

This is simply false! Listen to Augustine, On Grace and Free Will:

Chapter 19 [VIII.]— How is Eternal Life Both a Reward for Service and a Free Gift of Grace?

And hence there arises no small question, which must be solved by the Lord’s gift. If eternal life is rendered to good works, as the Scripture most openly declares: “Then He shall reward every man according to his works:” Matthew 16:27 how can eternal life be a matter of grace, seeing that grace is not rendered to works, but is given gratuitously, as the apostle himself tells us: “To him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt;” Romans 4:4 and again: “There is a remnant saved according to the election of grace;” with these words immediately subjoined: “And if of grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace”? Romans 11:5-6

How, then, is eternal life by grace, when it is received from works? Does the apostle perchance not say that eternal life is a grace? Nay, he has so called it, with a clearness which none can possibly gainsay. It requires no acute intellect, but only an attentive reader, to discover this. For after saying, “The wages of sin is death,” he at once added, “The grace of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23

Chapter 20.— The Question Answered. Justification is Grace Simply and Entirely, Eternal Life is Reward and Grace.

This question, then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, because of what is said by the Lord Jesus: “Without me you can do nothing.” John 15:5 And the apostle himself, after saying, “By grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;” Ephesians 2:8-9 saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them; and again, the possibility of men’s boasting of their good works, as if they were of themselves capable of performing them. To meet, therefore, these opinions on both sides, he immediately added, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10 What is the purport of his saying, “Not of works, lest any man should boast,” while commending the grace of God? And then why does he afterwards, when giving a reason for using such words, say, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works”? Why, therefore, does it run, “Not of works, lest any man should boast”?

Now, hear and understand. “Not of works” is spoken of the works which you suppose have their origin in yourself alone; but you have to think of works for which God has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you. For of these he says, “We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” Now he does not here speak of that creation which made us human beings, but of that in reference to which one said who was already in full manhood, “Create in me a clean heart, O God;” concerning which also the apostle says, “Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things have become new. And all things are of God.” 2 Corinthians 5:17-18

We are framed, therefore, that is, formed and created, “in the good works which” we have not ourselves prepared, but “God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” It follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God’s grace, so also the *eternal life which is the recompense of a good life *is the grace of God;

On Grace and Free Will

Also note this Scripture which clearly teaches that “gifts” are given conditionally!

But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is*** given***, of him much shall be required. Luke 12:48

The greater the “gift,” the more required. And what greater “gift” is there than eternal life?

 

[brkn1]

So you agree that good works do not automatically follow saving faith, that in fact, “true believers” can enter heaven having done zero works?

As for your statement that “a gift is not a reward.”

This is simply false! Listen to Augustine, On Grace and Free Will:

Also note this Scripture which clearly teaches that “gifts” are given conditionally!

But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is*** given***, of him much shall be required. Luke 12:48

The greater the “gift,” the more required. And what greater “gift” is there than eternal life?

A “gift” that is “given conditionally” is not a true gift, but is rather a reward merited by the receiver meeting the conditions required.

(Luke 12:48) is speaking of those who heard the gospel and did not truly receive (believe) it.
A true believer would not “say in his heart, My Lord delayeth His coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;”.
A born again believer does not have such a heart and verse 46 calls those who have such a heart an “unbeliever”.

 

[brkn1]

if one was not a beleiver then they have no foundation. This scripture does not apply in the way you are trying to make it apply.
As for the Pharisee’s did not Jesus say they already have received their reward?So their reward can not be lost as they have already recieved it.

Those Pharisees expect a reward in Heaven and it will not be so when it is tested (tried) by fire.

I agree that true belief in the Gospel of Christ is the foundation that all works will judged by.
There is no other foundation but Christ.

 

[Soutane]

Those Pharisees expect a reward in Heaven and it will not be so when it is tested (tried) by fire.

I agree that true belief in the Gospel of Christ is the foundation that all works will judged by.
There is no other foundation but Christ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brkn1
“Almsgiving is a work of straw if it did not originate from the believer’s divine nature caused by the Holy Spirit. All work that originates from our self and not from the indwelling Spirit is worthless before God and will not be rewarded, even if it appears wonderful before man. Pharisees demonstrated this as they gave alms so that others (or even just themselves) could see them being generous etc. Christ rebuked such “good” works as self-serving and hypocritical. Such “good” works will be burnt up when tested before God.”

Posted in response by Soutane
"Which is the Catholic position exactly.The grace that we receive through Christ and His Sacraments excite good works in the believer.Without Christ our works are nothing.We perform our good works in the mystical sense of Personae Christi;we make Christ’s face present just like Blessed Theresa of Calcutta did when she answered His call,"Come be My Light"and through her good works with the poor she brought Him into the “dark holes"of Calcutta”

WE TOO are saying there is no other foundation but Christ.It is our freely GIVEN and freely ACCEPTED FAITH that is the inspiration and cause of our good works.These works will not get us into heaven but the lack of them certainly will preclude us from Heaven and Beatific Vision.

James2:17

“In the same way, faith by itself, if it does not prove itself with actions, is dead.”
or
Faith without works is dead.Which has GOT to be the most quoted Scripture on CAF by Catholics and I have NEVER heard an adequate non-Catholic Christian to this one.I suspect that is why Luther tried to dump it from the Protestant Bible and after being talked out of it,thereafter referred to it as an “epistle of straw”.

 

[Soutane]

OOPS!Sorry please insert “reponse"before"this one”.Too late to edit.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Quote:WE TOO are saying there is no other foundation but Christ.It is our freely GIVEN and freely ACCEPTED FAITH that is the inspiration and cause of our good works.These works will not get us into heaven but the lack of them certainly will preclude us from Heaven and Beatific Vision.

So right!

But I would add a clarification: when we are truly “in Christ,” then may say that “our works” are, in reality, *His *works!

Again, Fr. Mersch:

From the beginning Christian tradition has affirmed that Christ’s passion is twofold: the sufferings of the Head and the sufferings of the members. Therefore, the Scholastics conclude, the satisfaction of Christ is likewise twofold: the satisfaction offered by the Head and the satisfaction offered by the members. Just as the sufferings of both have the same dignity, since the Head and members are one body, so too they possess the same satisfactory value, since Christ and the Christians make up one Mystical Christ. Both have the same value, but not in the same manner: it is in Christ principally, and in us only secondarily and by way of participation. Hence, while there is a certain equality between Head and members, this does not at all mean that the members are as great as the Head, but only that they are one with Him.

If they are placed beside Him, then of course they are nothing; but they are not beside Him! They are in Him, and, being in Him, they are everything, since He is everything, and since, even when joined with them, He is still one.

It is on account of this unity of the Mystical Body, as St. Thomas says, that the merits of the Head flow into the members. The first writer to give clear expression to this teaching is Cardinal Cajetan.

Christ and ourselves, His members, make up one mystical person. Therefore my satisfaction, when joined to the satisfaction of Christ and considered as the satisfaction of one mystical person, becomes strictly equal to the offense, and at times even superabundant. 7

However, as the Cardinal explains in another passage:

This does not mean that we merit eternal life by our works inasmuch as they proceed from us, but inasmuch as they come, in us and through us, from Christ. 8

Cajetan expresses the thought best in his commentary on the text of St. Paul to the Galatians (2:20 D.V.): “I live, now not I, but Christ liveth in me.”

Note how the Apostle explains the words he has just written [in the preceding verse]: “that I may live to God.” He does so by correcting the use of the first person, “that I may live.” “No,” he continues, “it is not I that live, but it is Christ that lives in me. Hence all my vital acts, such as to know and to think, to love, to rejoice or to be sad, to desire, to labor, are mine no longer; they no longer come from me, but from Christ within me.” For he who is crucified with Christ has Christ as the reason for all his actions; Christ so directs, disposes, and uses his internal and external faculties that he can justly say: “Christ lives in me.” 9

The Whole Christ, Chapter IX, The Scholatics - 4. The Dignity of the Members of Christ.

pp. 514-515.

 

[Soutane]

“But I would add a clarification: when we are truly “in Christ,” then may say that “our works” are, in reality, His works”

Thanks for clarifying that.Recently I helped a woman’s child out of a dangerous situation,she said,“thank you” and without thinking I said,"don’t thank me thank God"which was weird because it was spontaneous.Before I think I would have bathed in her praise,but having matured I realized that I did it for Him because He put me in the position to do good in His name,to make Him visible to the woman and her child,which is an exraordinary gift and privilege and reward in itself…

 

[brkn1]

Quote:

WE TOO are saying there is no other foundation but Christ.It is our freely GIVEN and freely ACCEPTED FAITH that is the inspiration and cause of our good works.These works will not get us into heaven but the lack of them certainly will preclude us from Heaven and Beatific Vision.

To say that “works will not get us into heaven” and then say the “lack of them will preclude us from Heaven” is to say opposite things in the same sentence.

 

[Soutane]

To say that “works will not get us into heaven” and then say the “lack of them will preclude us from Heaven” is to say opposite things in the same sentence.

Think about it.Works alone will not get us into heaven but a faith lived in love(works)will.
A Faith NOT lived in love is a dead faith and will preclude us from Heaven and the Beatific Vision.Don’t make me quote James again,ok?

 

[raumzeitmc2]

“But I would add a clarification: when we are truly “in Christ,” then may say that “our works” are, in reality, His works”

Thanks for clarifying that.Recently I helped a woman’s child out of a dangerous situation,she said,“thank you” and without thinking I said,"don’t thank me thank God"which was weird because it was spontaneous.Before I think I would have bathed in her praise,but having matured I realized that I did it for Him because He put me in the position to do good in His name,to make Him visible to the woman and her child,which is an exraordinary gift and privilege and reward in itself…

Exactly!

Christ and his members are one! They are unity! If only our Protestant brethren could understand this! But this they cannot grasp because they cannot grasp the meaning of the Incarnation, of God becoming man. And why not, having known nothing but rebellion and division?

Fr. Mersch:

How far we have come from the vast syntheses of Cyril and Augustine! There, too, we saw only God, but a God who truly gives himself to us in Christ; a God who make Christ’s humanity truly capable of making us truly divine. There, too, we saw only one doctrine, the Incarnation; but a doctrine that attains an immense expansion, without losing aught of its unity; a doctrine that includes, in the union of the two natures which constitutes the Head, that other union of nature and grace which constitutes the members.

Here, on the contrary, the heretics have abandoned the Light of Life, and everything falls into darkness and death; they have broken away from unity, and the whole mosaic is shattered into fragments.

Protestantism is a principle of division, not only in the ranks of its adherents, but in its very doctrine. It set out to prove that Christ was everything; it succeeds only in proving Him impotent. It meant to attribute everything to grace; but by despoiling human nature it succeeds in eliminating grace entirely. It promised to lead us to the presence of God alone; but by destroying everything that God has made to leas us to Him, it makes Him inaccessible. Incorporation in Christ was to be our whole life; yet it leaves us corpses.

At first sight the Protestant doctrine of the Mystical Body seems to be a miracle of simplicity. God wills to see us in His son; He wills that His Son’s humanity should possess the deifying power that it proper to the Word. And that is all. The mystery of the Head and members is reduced to a few divine decrees, such as we ourselves might have issued if we were powerful enough. There is no longer any divinization, or any instrument capable of making us divine. What difficulty can the mind discover in this man-made system?

None, of course. But the elimination of these few difficulties has destroyed the mystery: it is easy enough to understand now, but the object to understand no longer exists! If the members have no life in them, how can they be members? And if the Head has nothing that He can communicate, how can He be Head?

Strictly speaking, there is nothing left, either in ourselves or in Christ, that can constitute a true organism. Therefore the Mystical Body does not exist in itself. It exists only in God, and it consists of divine decrees. God acts as if the humanity of Christ could divinize us, as if we really received eternal life through that humanity, and * as if *there were a Mystical Body. But there is none!

Everything is drawn, so to speak, into God. But then God Himself withdraws into the unknowable. He is infinite; what proportion can He have with our finite intellects? He is holiness; what can He have in common with our weakness? Inasmuch as He is everything in Himself, He is nothing to us who are nothingness. Thus everything vanishes: God Himself, His gifts, the union He offers us, just when we hoped to attain all.

This was inevitable: since Protestantism has broken away from the Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, its doctrine of the Mystical Body must necessarily disintegrate and be lost.

The foregoing remarks are very general, and, we repeat, they have been developed from the standpoint of logic rather than that of history. Nevertheless we believe that they are correct, and that they bring out clearly what is essential to the Protestant doctrine. We wished to call attention to this example of “regressive evolution,” and to contrast it with the progress that we have witnessed. Unfortunately, we shall meet the same regression again, though on a reduced scale. In the seventeenth century, the Jansenists follow the same path to ruin. Others, some of them fervent Catholics, venture upon it, only to be restrained and saved by their attachment to the Church, and retrace their steps to the way of truth. Although foreshadowed here, these doctrinal aberrations do not take place until later.

The Whole Christ, pp. 506-508.