Once Saved, Always Saved

[pismopal]

I’ve had Baptist friends who wonder if I’m “saved” or not.

Catholics don’t get “saved”, we get confirmed

Tell your Baptist friends that we get a huge number of our converts from their denom

 

[MartinJordan]

True, but I always thought Judas was the one about which Christ said it would be better if he had never been born:

Matt 26:23-25
23 He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me, will betray me. 24 The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Is it I, Master?” He said to him, “You have said so.”

It makes Judas sound like one of the “vessels of wrath” that are written about. Just because he was sent on missionary journeys and did healings does not mean he was ever saved, either. Jesus may have been speaking of him when He said “I never knew you”.

Not interrupt here, but Ive got a question about Judas. Didn’t Jesus pray before choosing the Apostles and Judas chose to be lost? That would mean to me he wasn’t evil to start with right?

MJ

 

[Robert_in_SD]

You are correct and it is by Christ’s imputed righteousness and grace that we can.

If it is nothing but a mere declaration of righteousness, as opposed to a real righteousness, then how can you say one truly becomes holy? Does there not have to be real change? Your imputed righteousness position seems rather weak and unsupportable to me.

INFUSED grace is a term often used by Catholic theologians to describe in metaphorical terms how God “pours” grace into our souls or, to put it another way, “fills” us with his grace. The word “infused” denotes the idea of something being “poured into” and is seen most commonly in the Latin formula gratia infusia. This language is symbolic, of course, but it is certainly biblical. Some Protestant critics of the Catholic Church criticize the concept of infused grace as being “unbiblical,” but as the following verses show, the concept is completely biblical.

“You are the fairest of the sons of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you for ever” (Psalm 45:2).

“For the palace will be forsaken . . . until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest” (Isaiah 32:14-15).

“And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:17-18).

“And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people” (Acts 6:8).

“And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness” (Acts 4:31).

“And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles” (Acts 10:45).

“When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose; for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith” (Acts 11:23-24).

“And hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us” (Romans 5:5).

“And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit” (Eph. 5:18).

“He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5-7)

Peace,
Robert

 

[elvisman]

True, but I always thought Judas was the one about which Christ said it would be better if he had never been born:

Matt 26:23-25
23 He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me, will betray me. 24 The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Is it I, Master?” He said to him, “You have said so.”

It makes Judas sound like one of the “vessels of wrath” that are written about. Just because he was sent on missionary journeys and did healings does not mean he was ever saved, either. Jesus may have been speaking of him when He said “I never knew you”.

True - Jesus did say that it was better that he had never been born - because of what he was about to do.
It’s not that he was created for hell. If God wills the salvation of all (1 Tim. 2:4) - he doesn’t create anybody for hell. That would make him a monster and he cannot be the author of evil.

The plain fact is that we simply don’t know if Judas was ever “saved” because the Scriptures are silent on the matter and we cannot judge on the matter because we don’t know where his heart was in the beginning.

 

[Carlan]

If it is nothing but a mere declaration of righteousness, as opposed to a real righteousness, then how can you say one truly becomes holy? Does there not have to be real change? Your imputed righteousness position seems rather weak and unsupportable to mePeace,Robert

Yes Jeri, reading all of Roberts post can you still not acknowledge Baptism and all that it does for us, receiving the power of Christ which infuses the soul with his life and love,removing sin and giving us sanctifying grace .
Sin is no longer in the Christian redeemed, it has been washed away by the power of the Trinity in Baptism.
It is no longer there to be simply covered over as you keep insisting upon.

I ask what do you think it is that Baptism does for the soul?
Peace, Carlan

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Are we not all in agreement that this does not happen? If you doubt the Catholic position on this, then I suggest that you read the Joint Declaration on Justification.

I think you say one thing but practice another. You believe that if you commit a “mortal” sin you fall from grace. As a Catholic, what do you have to DO to return to a state of grace?

Brian, this is a Catholic docuement, written by a Catholic. So far, all the quotes you have taken from it represent Catholic Teaching. I am not sure why that is so hard for you to accept. How would your life change if you had to admit that the Catholic Church has it right?

I present the arguments in my own words and you disagree and call them heresy; I present the same positions from the early church and you fully agree and call them Catholic. That is the mark of an idealog.

We also accept the Apostolic Teaching that when we sin, we are not “in Him” and not pure. Sin is not pure. When we sin, we reject the free gift of God, and fall from grace. Gifts can be left by the side of the road.

References please?

That is just it, Brian. When a person sins, they separate themselves from Christ. They are no longer walking in the obedience of faith. They must be reconciled to God, as they have crucified the son of God afresh.

Excuse me? They must be reconciled to God, as they have crucified the son of God afresh??? Did the Catholic Church rewrite the Scriptures?

“For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those that were once enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the coming age, and have fallen away, crucifying to themselves the Son of God anew, and putting him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6)

How much clearer could this be? Your doctrine, assuming you are articulating it correctly, is obviously in error.

 

[Carlan]

“For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those that were once enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and had become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the coming age, and have fallen away, crucifying to themselves the Son of God anew, and putting him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6).

Brian you Quote out of context. You forget what we have been telling you and what the Scriture tells us…Unless you repent , confess and receive forgiveness. Don’t you know wwe have a merciful God who forgives when we fall and turn back to him contrite?
Peace, Carlan

 

[RealEstateCarol]

You have to repent, and believe it and meant it with all your heart when you confess that your salvation comes through Christ alone…no wishy-washy half-faith, non-repentant stuff.

To begin with, REPENTANCE In the Greek IS.“metanoia” a change of mind.
It is changing you mind from Unbelief to Belief.

Salvation

The Bible says we are all sinners.
Romans 3:10
As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

It says no sin can enter into Heaven.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Psalm 3:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

There has to be a death payment made for sin.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus made that death payment.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

All we have to do is accept the payment Jesus made.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 10:9-11
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Not by works, nothing we do ourselves

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Brian you Quote out of context. You forget what we have been telling you and what the Scriture tells us…Unless you repent , confess and receive forgiveness. Don’t you know wwe have a merciful God who forgives when we fall and turn back to him contrite?
Peace, Carlan

Carlan, I don’t think you understand what is being stated in Hebrews 6. The apostle is referring to spiritual sin, not the sin of giving in to carnal temptations. When Christians, who are in relationship with Christ, sin, it is as Paul described in Romans 7. What is being stated in Hebrews 6 is entirely different. This is referring to sin against the Holy Spirit for which there is no forgiveness.

I stated earlier in this discussion that I knew of only one person that has committed this sin and that person was Judas. I am not saying there haven’t been others, but I wouldn’t know. When Jesus was with the twelve in Philippi He asked them who other say He is, and then He asked them who they say He is. He wanted them to see that they were given knowledge about Him that most others did not possess. And the knowledge that was known to them was from His Father in heaven, that Jesus was the Son of God. They knew this because they believed in Him.

What is relevant about that is that Judas was not excluded from this knowledge, nor was he a non-believer. He understood who Jesus is and yet he turned against Him with deliberate malevolence. That is why Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born.

Now take the example of Peter. When Jesus was arrested Peter followed behind. When he was confronted about being one of Jesus disciples he denied it – three times. Peter did this out of the weakness of his flesh. Jesus did not say of Peter, “it would have been better if he had never been born.”

Peter did not fall from grace as Judas did. Peter did not denounce Jesus from the heart with deliberate intent as Judas did. And Judas is the example of the kind of person that Hebrews 6 is referring to. It is impossible for such a person to be renewed again unto repentance.

God is indeed merciful Carlan, and we who love Him have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Question: How do you rectify the conflict between what Scripture states is impossible with what you say is not impossible?

 

[fbl9]

I think you say one thing but practice another. You believe that if you commit a “mortal” sin you fall from grace. As a Catholic, what do you have to DO to return to a state of grace?

So when one sins they no longer are saved. straight from scripture which you quoted
.who has rewrote it, indeed hmmm.?

 

[elvisman]

Carlan, I don’t think you understand what is being stated in Hebrews 6. The apostle is referring to spiritual sin, not the sin of giving in to carnal temptations. When Christians, who are in relationship with Christ, sin, it is as Paul described in Romans 7. What is being stated in Hebrews 6 is entirely different. This is referring to sin against the Holy Spirit for which there is no forgiveness.

I stated earlier in this discussion that I knew of only one person that has committed this sin and that person was Judas. I am not saying there haven’t been others, but I wouldn’t know. When Jesus was with the twelve in Philippi He asked them who other say He is, and then He asked them who they say He is. He wanted them to see that they were given knowledge about Him that most others did not possess. And the knowledge that was known to them was from His Father in heaven, that Jesus was the Son of God. They knew this because they believed in Him.

What is relevant about that is that Judas was not excluded from this knowledge, nor was he a non-believer. He understood who Jesus is and yet he turned against Him with deliberate malevolence. That is why Jesus said it would have been better if he had never been born.

Now take the example of Peter. When Jesus was arrested Peter followed behind. When he was confronted about being one of Jesus disciples he denied it – three times. Peter did this out of the weakness of his flesh. Jesus did not say of Peter, “it would have been better if he had never been born.”

Peter did not fall from grace as Judas did. Peter did not denounce Jesus from the heart with deliberate intent as Judas did. And Judas is the example of the kind of person that Hebrews 6 is referring to. It is impossible for such a person to be renewed again unto repentance.

God is indeed merciful Carlan, and we who love Him have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Question: How do you rectify the conflict between what Scripture states is impossible with what you say is not impossible?

The sin sgainst Holy Spirit for which there is no forgiveness is FINAL impenitence. Any reputable Protestant scholar will agree - and many do, such as R. C. Sproul, Norman Geisler and John MacArthur.

As for fleshly sin and spiritual sin - it is all spiritual because, in the end, it involves rebellion against God. When is comes to Peter’s sin and that of Judas - the only difference is that Judas was apparently impenitent - Peter wasn’t. Peter wept and prayed, whereas Judas went and hanged himself. He could have repented, but chose instead to dispair.

Jesus didn’t say that it was better if Judas had never been born simply because of his betrayal - but because of his impenitence.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

The sin sgainst Holy Spirit for which there is no forgiveness is FINAL impenitence. Any reputable Protestant scholar will agree - and many do, such as R. C. Sproul, Norman Geisler and John MacArthur.

**As for fleshly sin and spiritual sin - it is all **spiritual because, in the end, it involves rebellion against God. When is comes to Peter’s sin and that of Judas - the only difference is that Judas was apparently impenitent - Peter wasn’t. Peter wept and prayed, whereas Judas went and hanged himself. He could have repented, but chose instead to dispair.

*Jesus didn’t say that it was better if Judas had never been born simply ***because of his betrayal - but because of his impenitence.

Matthew tells us that Judas repented in himself (stung with remorse) and confessed to betraying innocent blood. And none of the accounts tell us that Peter prayed; they say only that he wept bitterly.

It is also verifiably false that Judas chose despair and thus could have repented. The Scripture states that prior to Judas’ remorse and confession he “saw that he was condemned.”

Whatever you add to this to form your opinion is not from apostolic sources.

When Judas betrayed Jesus he put himself in full agreement with all the things of which the Pharisees where accusing Jesus. This man who had tasted the goodness of the Lord and knew explicitly that Jesus was the Son of God and savior of mankind, deliberately aligned himself with those that called our Lord a blasphemer, liar, rebel, and sinner. It was not “simply a betrayal,” it was deliberate malicious insurrection of the highest order.

You downplay this to a level such that you accuse all believers who struggle with sin on a daily basis of essentially being like Judas. Fortunately you are wrong and it is not the case. See Romans 7.

 

[OurLady01]

Quote: Originally Posted by guanophore
We also accept the Apostolic Teaching that when we sin, we are not “in Him” and not pure. Sin is not pure. When we sin, we reject the free gift of God, and fall from grace. Gifts can be left by the side of the road.

**Quote: Originally Posted by Brian Culliton

References please?**​

OK Brian. References: Fall from Grace Catholic answer by OurLady1 thank you Mike Forrester].

When we choose serious sin - i.e., unfaithfulness to God by forsaking Him, to remain in love with false gods: obeying wickedness, to follow our own stubborn evil will: i.e., Adultery, lust, gluttony, fornication, etc] which leads to spiritual death, we choose to harden our hearts by serious sin. We are not under God’s grace.] We must admit to God we have sinned, and continually avoid + repent ] from serious sins, in order to believe in Him continually, and receive His mercy and forgiveness and remain in His grace. ]

When choosing serious sin that leads to death: We choose to not have the right-heart *attitude *response to God. We are not keeping His commandments. We are not remaining in ] the Vine. We refuse to love Him with all our heart, with all our soul, all our mind and all our strength. *If you love me, you will obey Me! *] And we are not loving our neighbor as ourselves. We are not seeking first the Kingdom of God. We are not believing in ] Him b/c we choose to be faithless. We are not allowing access to His grace] His unmerited favor ] to conform us to His righteousness . By His grace, we are forfeiting by our choice to not be upright in heart.

Almighty God warns us : Once faithful to Christ, you can choose to be faithless to God: ‘’ Do not grieve the Holy Spirit. ''

Ephesians 4: 30 St. Paul writes to the saints who are faithful IN Christ Jesus] – Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus,[a] the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

**IF **it were NOT possible for the faithful to grieve God ] with a stubborn / hardened heart, then why is there a stern warning ] in sacred scripture To God’s holy people - the faithful in Christ Jesus ? :

Ephesians 5:1 says **We should live to not grieve the Holy Spirit **by

**1. ** being imitators of God.

**2. ** to walk in love Eph. 5:2

3. to walk as children of light light is found in all that is good and true ] Eph. 5:8-9

4. literal translation; and by PROVING ] what is pleasing to God.
…and find out what pleases the Lord. Eph. 5:10

Each time we sin we and we fall short of God’s glory, God is not overcome by grief. But there is a stubborn-hardened condition of man’s heart which causes extreme pain, extreme distress, extreme grief to God, called in the Greek lupeo ] which is an extremely disheartening event .

Here’s one example:

Mark 3:4-6

** 4 **Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

** 5** He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their hardened hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Here’s another example:

Ephesians 4:17-19

** 17** So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

Psalm 94:15 -16 states:

**15 **For the LORD will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance.

At first glance, it may appear that God will never forsake, reject, abandon God’s people. *But in closer examination in Psalm 94:16 the conditional promise of receiving His unmerited favor of righteousness is associated with an upright heart :
*
**16 **Judgment will again be founded on righteousness, and all the upright in heart will follow it.

That is, we must have the right-heart attitude response to God to choose to continually seek Him in continual faith [ginosko ?] , obey Him, love Him in order [to receive His grace ~ Christ’s unmerited favor of His Righteousness. ]

How long will the unfaithful be, before He throws you out hopefully not you the reader! ] where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth ? We must guard our faith, so we can be strengthened by His grace to be trustworthy to do all He asks from us. We must choose to continue to abide in Christ, continue and persevere by His faith, to run the race to win the prize of eternal salvation in heaven: where there is '‘security in eternity.’'

 

[OurLady01]

Correction: **Without His grace, we forfeit by our choice to not be upright in heart. **

 

[benedictus2]

Do I think Paul is foolish? What would make you ask such a question? Have I said anything that makes you think that?

But since we are on the topic, Paul said that he often did what he knew he should not do and that he didn’t do what he knew he should. I think Paul summed our condition quite succinctly and I have no doubt he is with the Lord. Paul also said "For we hold that one is justified by faith, APART from works of the law" Romans 3:28 Then there is this: Every sin will be forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Unless the Bible is lying, then that settles it for me.

God Bless.

I think it is important to highlight that bit. Most forget the “of the law” part.

And you need to refer this little bit of verse in the whole context of Romans 2 & 3.

 

[benedictus2]

I didn’t say Romans 11 was about slaves. I asked you what the context of Romans 11 is since that is what you quoted.

The ‘slaves’ question is referring to Paul who is speaking about working out their own way in Ephesians 6.

I could have been more clear on what exact scripture I was asking about. My bad on that.

Let’s go on to Philippians 2 which is where I think you are probably heading. Do you see anything in that chapter that says you can lose your salvation? Here is the entire verse:

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but how much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;*** for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.,***

Anything there about having lost a relationship with Christ? We respond to Christ with fear and trembling. God is the one who does the work. Yes?

Tell me, if a “saved” Christian apostatizes and say becomes an atheist and does all sorts heinous things then dies. Do you think he is still saved considering he was once saved?

 

[Holly3278]

One of my recent blog posts is about the false doctrine of “once saved, always saved”. The link to my blog is in my signature.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

One of my recent blog posts is about the false doctrine of “once saved, always saved”. The link to my blog is in my signature.

Good morning Holly, Thanks for the very informative blog site.
This will come in handy with Southern Baptist friends i know in the area.

God Bless you and yours…

Matthew

 

[Brian_Culliton]

One of my recent blog posts is about the false doctrine of “once saved, always saved”. The link to my blog is in my signature.

I think you are grasping the fringe to make your argument. The definition you present in your article that once a person is saved they have eternal security “regardless of how they lived their life,” is absurd. You say this is the belief of “many Protestants” yet you offer no examples to back that up.

The only claim I made about eternal security is that I am saved. Catholics say I can’t know that. I said that I am held to Christ by love and will never leave Him. Catholics say I can’t know that and I might choose to walk away in the future.

Let’s pretend we are not discussing salvation, instead we are discussing marriage and relationships. If I were to tell you in that context that I love my wife with all my heart, and that I would never leave her, what would you say? Would you tell me that I am foolish for believing such a thing? Or would you tell me that I have real commitment?

Do I grieve my wife from time to time? Yes. Is our marriage over every time that happens? No. Do I turn my back on her every time I do something that upsets her? No. I love her and she loves me and we have been married a long time. And as long as we love on another nothing can separate us.

I don’t think you would find it foolish of me to say I love my wife and would never leave her, but when I say the same thing about my relationship with Christ you think I am foolish. Are you completely unaware that Christ’s church is His bride and marriage is a model of that relationship?

Imagine that my wife had a set of rules and I could only stay married to her so long as I didn’t break any of those rules. But if I did break one of her rules, I could go through a process by which I could have my marriage restored that would require both her mercy and some sort of penance. That is not a relationship, yet your doctrine of salvation paints that very picture.

When two people love each other they are committed to one another. When they hurt one another they reconcile through love for one another, not through legal means.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I think you are grasping the fringe to make your argument. The definition you present in your article that once a person is saved they have eternal security “regardless of how they lived their life,” is absurd. You say this is the belief of “many Protestants” yet you offer no examples to back that up.

The only claim I made about eternal security is that I am saved. Catholics say I can’t know that. I said that I am held to Christ by love and will never leave Him. Catholics say I can’t know that and I might choose to walk away in the future.

Let’s pretend we are not discussing salvation, instead we are discussing marriage and relationships. If I were to tell you in that context that I love my wife with all my heart, and that I would never leave her, what would you say? Would you tell me that I am foolish for believing such a thing? Or would you tell me that I have real commitment?

Do I grieve my wife from time to time? Yes. Is our marriage over every time that happens? No. Do I turn my back on her every time I do something that upsets her? No. I love her and she loves me and we have been married a long time. And as long as we love on another nothing can separate us.

I don’t think you would find it foolish of me to say I love my wife and would never leave her, but when I say the same thing about my relationship with Christ you think I am foolish. Are you completely unaware that Christ’s church is His bride and marriage is a model of that relationship?

Imagine that my wife had a set of rules and I could only stay married to her so long as I didn’t break any of those rules. But if I did break one of her rules, I could go through a process by which I could have my marriage restored that would require both her mercy and some sort of penance. That is not a relationship, yet your doctrine of salvation paints that very picture.

When two people love each other they are committed to one another. When they hurt one another they reconcile through love for one another, not through legal means.

Maybe you should read St. Paul’s writings ( 1cor 4:3-5 , Philippians 2:12)!
It sure looks like St. Paul does not subscribe to O.S.A.S .

Matthew