Once Saved, Always Saved

[guanophore]

Not in the way you are presenting it.  The perspective is that the prodigal son represents ALL people, but particularly the Jews who have gone their own way, not people who are Christians.  When the son returns to the father that is when he becomes a Christian.

No, Brian. You had it right the first time. Jesus was addressing this parable to Jews. The pharisees, saducees, and very passionate for the Law Jews are represented in the elder brother. The faithless Jews are represented in the younger brother. Both brothers are born into the inheritance, like all Jews. The elder brother was angry because those faithless Jews (the ones they called rabble) were getting preferential treatment from the Father when they returned to faith. No one in this parable “became a Christian”.

He is welcomed and forgiven because of his believe in the one true sacrifice of Christ.  He is “healed by His stripes.” '/quote]

No, Brian. YOu are reading into the text things that are not there.

The prodigal son was welcomed and forgiven because of the Father’s mercy, and because he repented in humility, and threw himself upon the mercy of the Father.
Brian Culliton;7750103:

The older brother represents the Jewish leaders who considered themselves righteous and scoffed at the “sinners” that sought Jesus’ forgiveness.

I am glad you got this part, at least. They were very jealous of the uneducated fishermen that were given the secrets of the Kingdom.

Another way to put this is that the prodigal son represents the lost sheep of Israel. They were the people of God residing in God’s house, but as Isaiah said, “they had all gone astray, each to his own way.” And remember, the lost sheep were not Gentiles; Jesus referred to Gentile believers as “His other sheep that must be brought in.”

Yes. I think you hit this nail on the head!

No believer is perfect; no believer is immune to committing sin. But the sins of the believer are not on the level of turning their back on God and walking away.

IF this were true, Brian, then there would be no need of all the passages that speak of this phenomenon, such as that in Hebrews, or the one posted above about the possibility of one’s name being blotted out of the book of life.

The sins of the believer are described by Paul in Romans 7.

And many other places as well, such as:

Gal 5:19-22
9 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is addressed to Christians.

Based on the discussion thus far in this thread, no Catholic can claim that their heart is represented by the good soil. And, therefore, no Catholic can claim to nourish the word, grow thereby and bear spiritual fruit. Are you all among the weeds, or are there any Catholics who would consider their self to be represented by the good soil?

This is such a judgemental assessment, and so degrading, I cannot bring myself to give an answer.

One has to wonder what your purpose here on CAF really is, Brian. ARe you just here to disparage the Catholic faith, and those who espouse it? You clearly don’t seem to be here to get any “Catholic Answers”. Instead of trying to learn what the Church teaches, you just continue to pander lies about the faith.

 

[Carlan]

Human beings are destined for hell at birth, because we are born into a state of separation from God. It is not “evil” of God to allow the consequences of our choices to be carried out (permit people to go to hell).

Rom 9:21-22
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction…

Clearly some are vessels of wrath who were created for destruction.

Sorry, Guan – I gotta disagree with you. Whereas we may be destined for hell because of original sin - everybody has a chance out. God doesn’t create us for hell.

God doesn’t create ANYBODY for hell – and the Church has NEVER taught this.

I am not understanding your Post either Guan!
Peace, Carlan

 

[Brian_Culliton]

This is such a judgemental assessment, and so degrading, I cannot bring myself to give an answer.

One has to wonder what your purpose here on CAF really is, Brian. ARe you just here to disparage the Catholic faith, and those who espouse it? You clearly don’t seem to be here to get any “Catholic Answers”. Instead of trying to learn what the Church teaches, you just continue to pander lies about the faith.

Actually I learned more about Catholics from asking that one biblical question than I did from the whole discussion. And as far as the accusations that I am hateful, bigoted, and judgmental for confronting you with Scripture, I am in good company, for my Lord was treated the same way.

 

[ignatius777]

Not in the way you are presenting it. The perspective is that the prodigal son represents ALL people, but particularly the Jews who have gone their own way, not people who are Christians. When the son returns to the father that is when he becomes a Christian. He is welcomed and forgiven because of his believe in the one true sacrifice of Christ. He is “healed by His stripes.” The older brother represents the Jewish leaders who considered themselves righteous and scoffed at the “sinners” that sought Jesus’ forgiveness.

Another way to put this is that the prodigal son represents the lost sheep of Israel. They were the people of God residing in God’s house, but as Isaiah said, “they had all gone astray, each to his own way.” And remember, the lost sheep were not Gentiles; Jesus referred to Gentile believers as “His other sheep that must be brought in.”

A new believer will commit more sin more often than a mature believer. The reason being is that the mature believer has grown in faith and knowledge through a process called sanctification. The longer one follows Christ the more they learn, and the more they learn the more their faith increases, and the more their faith increases the more resistant to sin they become. All this leads to bearing fruit and more of it.

No believer is perfect; no believer is immune to committing sin. But the sins of the believer are not on the level of turning their back on God and walking away. The sins of the believer are described by Paul in Romans 7. A young (in the faith) believer could get caught up in the things you described temporarily. If he or she feels remorse and repents then their heart is right with God. It is a war between flesh and spirit that rages particularly in newer believers. Experiencing the scars of such a war is not a denial of God, but rather a weakness of the flesh. It’s when a believer is once again caught up in that sinful life and embraces it that they deny God and are lost. That is what the Scripture meant by “overcome.” But this is a matter of the heart and we are not capable of knowing the hearts of others.

Thank you for answering.

I think you are overcomplicating the parable. There is no scenario in the parable where plants sprout up among the weeds and start pulling them up. Notice that in the parable the soil represents the hearts of those who receive the word of God. The hearts of all people who receive the word are one of the following: stony, sandy, thorny, or cultivated.

The thorny ground is along the cultivated field and is left wild. The seeds that fall into that area are helpless against the weeds. The farmer does not mow them, or in any way labor in those areas for the sake of the plants that sprouted there. Those plants are rooted, choked by weeds, and will never bear fruit. The reason that heart will never bear fruit is because it is **given over **to the cares of the world.

An Old Testament type for one with this type of heart can be found in Lot’s wife. Lot’s wife was concerned about the welfare of what she was leaving behind rather than trusting the word of the Lord which was leading her to safety.

The way you described yourself in relation to the parable is as one who received the word, but at the time cared more for the world than for God. Now you describe yourself as one who is rooted in the weeds but is attempting to fight them off by your own power. If you received the word a long time ago and are still fighting off weeds, you must realize that it is a loosing battle. If you are truly rooted among the weeds you will never bear fruit. And if you never bear fruit how will you ever be profitable to God? Is that how you intended to protray yourself?

The heart that is represented by the good soil is that which receives the word, nourishes it, grows and bears fruit. These plants, like the others, are in the world, but unlike the others they are not of the world. These plants are profitable to God because they bear fruit which produce seeds, which grows new plants that bear fruit, which produce more seeds and so on. These plants feed on Christ and are watered by His word. Their fruit is seen by the world and many come to Christ because of it.

Based on the discussion thus far in this thread, no Catholic can claim that their heart is represented by the good soil. And, therefore, no Catholic can claim to nourish the word, grow thereby and bear spiritual fruit. Are you all among the weeds, or are there any Catholics who would consider their self to be represented by the good soil?

The parable is VERY simple my friend. God’s incomprehensible love for us!!! That no matter if we were once with Him and return or if we we never were with Him He accepts us as long as we make the move towards Him.

But if you wantto look more deeply NONE of us can say we were never with the father since it was He who created us. It is us who abandon Him. Come home Brian your brothers and Father are waiting with open arms

 

[fbl9]

Their first state was separation from God with the chance to hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. Their last state is separation from God having already forsaken the salvation He offers. Christ is not sacrificed again for them and the father will not kill the fatted calf and celebrate with a feast a second time, or third, or fourth, and so on.

osas no longer exists. something you have finally admitted to.

i do not understand your view of sin and it’s effects.
from what i understand you to be saying
one can lose their salvation, by becoming apostate.
one can sin yet not lose salvation
is the effects of all sin equal? i ask.
for example a you telling your wife she looks good in her new dress ( even though it is an ugly dress) vs a destitue stealing an apple. which is an example of say the hard soil?

 

[guanophore]

Actually I learned more about Catholics from asking that one biblical question than I did from the whole discussion.

This makes sense. It seems clear that you are coming to us with your preconceived notions about the Bible, and you are not really interested in a discussion at all.

And as far as the accusations that I am hateful, bigoted, and judgmental for confronting you with Scripture, I am in good company, for my Lord was treated the same way.

No, you are not, Brian. And you did not “confront” us with 'Scripture. You made disparaging remarks about the faith of others.

Based on the discussion thus far in this thread, no Catholic can claim that their heart is represented by the good soil. And, therefore, no Catholic can claim to nourish the word, grow thereby and bear spiritual fruit.

It is not your place to judge the condition of the souls of others, Brian.

If you wish to keep posting here, I encourage you to read and follow the forum rules.

General Guidelines
Always abide by the forum rules. Civility and a respect for each other should be foremost.

.
Questions are a better approach than assertions, unless the latter are framed in a non-confrontational and non-accusatory manner.

Rhetorical questions may be used to introduce a new aspect of inquiry but not to evade challenges or to call into question intelligence, education, or any other personal qualities of another poster.

**It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs. **

If you aren’t going to go into the discussion with the resolution that you could just possibly have your view broadened, you may as well not go into it.

Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.

Avoid categorizing people by a term which could be considered derogatory (e.g., Nazi or neocon) unless they have embraced that title. In which case, you may qualify them with the term as long as you preface it with the word “avowed.” Posters are asked to use their best judgement when posting articles using such terms.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.

You have personally referred to me as a heretic and a bigot. I have not used any such remarks about any Catholic on this forum, ever!

guanophore:

Persons **contaminated by the heresies of Calvin **have a **deficient understanding **of many foundational concepts such as the nature of humanity, the nature of the Church, and the nature of salvation.

guanophore:

Persons whose theology has been contaminated with the heresies of Calvin, however, have fallen into the misunderstanding that this is not possible.

…I find it quite disrespectful. It reveals the **underlying bigotry **involved.

Let me break this down for you.

Based on the discussion thus far in this thread, no Catholic can claim that their heart is represented by the good soil.

Based on the discussion in this tread that is a true statement. If you do not believe it to be a true statement then defend it!

And, therefore, no Catholic can claim to nourish the word, grow thereby and bear spiritual fruit.

Because if one cannot be identified with the good soil, the things associated with the good soil cannot be said of that person. That is a fact!

Are you all among the weeds, or are there any Catholics who would consider their self to be represented by the good soil?

(The part you left out). The one response I received identified with the thorny soil. So…do you all agree or not???

Nothing disparaging here just a challenge you seem desperate not to face.

And since you are going to falsely accuse me of disparaging words, I will make a more honest person of you and actually use one. Hypocrite! Say whatever you like about me, Guanophre, you truly are a hypocrite!

 

[fbl9]

You have personally referred to me as a heretic and a bigot. I have not used any such remarks about any Catholic on this forum, ever!

Let me break this down for you.

Based on the discussion in this tread that is a true statement. If you do not believe it to be a true statement then defend it!

Because if one cannot be identified with the good soil, the things associated with the good soil cannot be said of that person. That is a fact!

(The part you left out). The one response I received identified with the thorny soil. So…do you all agree or not???

Nothing disparaging here just a challenge you seem desperate not to face.

And since you are going to falsely accuse me of disparaging words, I will make a more honest person of you and actually use one. Hypocrite! Say whatever you like about me, Guanophre, you truly are a hypocrite!

I take you no longer wish to bothered by hearing the truth rather you just want to get kicked off this site so you can boast to your friends that the Catholics were so scared of your witness they banned you.

 

[OurLady01]

We are all sincere Christians here, born again Christians posting. Our love must be sincere ] *; love is patient and kind. Brian is seeking to know the God of the Word, and he must listen to his conscience formed by the Holy Spirit. As you my dear Catholic family already truly understand, he does not have to believe in Christian Catholicism, since for multiple reasons his Christian conscience simply can’t ] allow it. Similarly, the Catholics Christians here are sincerely seeking Christ ! and I’m delighted to work alongside you.

May we come together in Christ’s Name; in unity with the Holy Spirit, with one purpose one heart one mind : to magnify and glorify Almighty God, so the world may believe God the Father sent our Lord Jesus Christ, so they may believe IN Him. Amen.*

 

[guanophore]

You have personally referred to me as a heretic and a bigot. I have not used any such remarks about any Catholic on this forum, ever!

Not at all, Brian. I have no way of knowing whether you are a heretic or a bigot or not. For all I know, you are role playing on this forum, and you don’t believe a word you have written. I have characterized certain positions and theologies you and others espouse as heretical. That does not make you a heretic. In fact, the opposite is usually the case. Most moderm Protestants are decended from generations of believers and have embraced the faith they were taught. They don’t qualify for the title of “heretic”, which requires that one have once embraced the Apostolic Faith, then willfully and knowingly rejected it. The original Reformers qualify for this title, but you don’t appear to have ever received the One Faith spoken of by the Apostles.

Some of your posts do reflect a bigoted stance. Again, I cannot know if you are a bigot yoruself, or if you are just role playing this bigoted stance. I am referring to the remarks made by you, not yourself. Sometimes people make bigoted statements because they don’t know any better.

If you will read over the quotes you provided, you will see that none of them refer to your person, but just the positions you have espoused.

Let me break this down for you. Based on the discussion in this tread that is a true statement. If you do not believe it to be a true statement then defend it!

I can’t imagine what defense there is against your judgement upon our souls. I entrust my soul to a faithful creator. Clearly you don’t believe that we are Christians, or that we walk with God. It is your perogative to hold your opinion.

 Because if one cannot be identified with the good soil, the things associated with the good soil cannot be said of that person.  That is a fact!

Oh, I agree! In fact, those words were written by a Catholic, for Catholics.

It does not seem that you have been able to observe anything on this thread that indicates Catholics posting on it have good soil, or that the seeds of faith have sprouted in our hearts, and that we bear good fruit. I think that most people tend to see what they expect to see.

 So…do you all agree or not????

No, but that is ok. The purpose of the thread is not for me to convince you that I love Jesus, or that He is at work in my life. The thread topic is about OSAS.

 Nothing disparaging here just a challenge you seem desperate not to face.

Perhaps you could relate it back to the thread topic? From what I can understand, a saved person will reflect the fruits of the HS. For the Reformed, this means that if a person is living a sinful life, he was never saved in the first place. For a Catholic, it means that a person has fallen from the grace that restored him to right relationship with God, and is in danger of being cut off and thrown into the fire. Both perspectives agree that a good tree bears good fruit.

 And since you are going to falsely accuse me of disparaging words, I will make a more honest person of you and actually use one.  Hypocrite!  Say whatever you like about me, Guanophre, you truly are a hypocrite!

Thank you Brian. I count it all joy. I will pray for you that you will be able to ascend your concrete thinking, and be able to understand that there is a difference between attacking one’s position and one’s person.

 

[guanophore]

We are all sincere Christians here, born again Christians posting. Our love must be sincere ] ; love is patient and kind.

I agree, but it is not loving to confirm people in error.
OurLady01;7759484:

Brian is seeking to know the God of the Word

What makes you think that? It seems to me that Brian already knows everything he thinks he needs to know. On the contrary, he seems bent upon informing us that we are the ones that need to know what he knows.

and he must listen to his conscience formed by the Holy Spirit.

Yes. What if the HS is working through this thread, to enlighten him about something important he has rejected?

 As you my dear Catholic family already truly understand, he does not have to believe in Christian Catholicism, since for multiple reasons his Christian conscience simply  can't ] allow it.

Or he may be in stubborn rebellion against it.

May we come together in Christ's Name; in unity with the Holy Spirit, with one purpose one heart one mind : to magnify and glorify Almighty God, so the world may believe God the Father sent our Lord Jesus Christ, so they may believe IN Him. Amen.

Amen!

 

[wed2catholic]

I think you are grasping the fringe to make your argument. The definition you present in your article that once a person is saved they have eternal security “regardless of how they lived their life,” is absurd. You say this is the belief of “many Protestants” yet you offer no examples to back that up.

I don’t know if anyone has commented on this or not, and I have not read the blog. I have refrained from commenting on this post as of yet, but I had to comment on this one part. Yes, some Protestants do believe this exact definition. I should know because it is the belief of a Baptist group that I was once associated with, and I know of many churches and people who believe the same thing. Just saying. . .

 

[pismopal]

Brian Culliton;7742619:

I think you are grasping the fringe to make your argument. The definition you present in your article that once a person is saved they have eternal security “regardless of how they lived their life

,” is absurd. You say this is the belief of “many Protestants” yet you offer no examples to back that up.

I don’t know if anyone has commented on this or not, and I have not read the blog. I have refrained from commenting on this post as of yet, but I had to comment on this one part. Yes, some Protestants do believe this exact definition. I should know because it is the belief of a Baptist group that I was once associated with, and I know of many churches and people who believe the same thing. Just saying. . .

And I am able to back up what you say with my own experience with Baptists…and there may be many other groups…who knows as non Catholic theology is as tangled and multi directional as a bramble bush. You cannot leave the true Church without becoming entangled in bad teaching…some worse than others.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Non-denominational Protestant here. I’ve been open to listening to the Catholic point of view, reading, listening to Catholic Answers Live for about four years now. I feel I am on the verge of conversion, but I seem to have one thing that I’d really like to have cleared up before going forward.

Here’s my question. I’ve heard a couple of references to the fact that Protestants believe that once saved, always saved and that that is contradictory to Catholic belief. Protestants believe that our sins are covered; Catholics believe, as I understand it, that nothing unholy or sinful will be able to stand in God’s presence, that we must continually work towards holiness.

Could someone give me a bare bones bullet list of what Catholics believe on this issue? I am asking for something this simple because I seem to get lost in my research, wading through tons of apologetics against seemingly centuries old arguments, none of which I am familiar with. A simple bullet list of what is truth would give me something to hold on to and refer back to as I study this issue.

With much gratitude!

Well I’m not Catholic, but this is what the bible says. Ezekiel33:18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

I think this answers the question.