Once Saved, Always Saved

[Carlan]

Jerri friend, just because the word " infused" is not there looking at you from the page does not mean that the Truth cannot be understood, It has been explained over and over again in this thread, and clearly to you. It seems you have closed your mind and are completely leaning on your own understanding(no quarter given).What can be said but, Prayer for enlightenment for all of us! Peace, Carlan

 

[jericho777]

Carlan and Guan do you believe our righteousness becomes inherent after we are infused. This means we are truly to our core righteous. Our new righteousness is now equal to God’s allowing us to stand in His presence.

 

[Carlan]

Carlan and Guan do you believe our righteousness becomes inherent after we are infused. This means we are truly to our core righteous. Our new righteousness is now equal to God’s allowing us to stand in His presence.

It is the beginning,justification our salvation is a life process we will know the results when we stand before our Judge. It is our hope because of Christ’s Resurrection, Peace, Carlan

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[Carlan]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Hang out in Catholic answers and you will get the complet Truth to all these statements!
Peace, Carlan

 

[guanophore]

Carlan and Guan do you believe our righteousness becomes inherent after we are infused.

No. Of course not. That is absurd. We already covered this ground jericho. We agreed that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves. lest any man should boast.

We also agreed that becoming partakers of His grace does not make us God.

You are describing an early heresy that was defeated by the Catholic Church called Semi-Pelagianism.

this means we are truly to our core righteous.

I dont’ think so, jericho. I think you are just making stuff up on the spot so you don’t have to accept what the Catholic Church teaches. I will give you a suggestion. Read what the Catholic Church believes about being justified by grace, through faith.

Our new righteousness is now equal to God’s allowing us to stand in His presence.

Pelagian heresy.

The fact that we are truly righteous through the core of our being does NOT have ANYTHING to do with our own righteousness. By His Spirit we BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ. We are not just “covered”.

2 Cor 5:20-21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so** that in him we might become the righteousness of God. **

 

[Third_Day]

=jericho777;7720560]It is the work and pleasure of Christ to sanctify the believer. I think sanctification like righteousness is imputed to the believer.

Are you saying that in heaven we are not truly, actually sanctified but we are truly, actually still full of sin? God just declares us to be sanctified?

 

[dcana]

Maybe John the Baptist can clear some things up as to whether our sins remain with us or not. Which did he say? :

A. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which covereth over the sin of the world. (KJV)

OR

B. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

?

Peace

 

[Brian_Culliton]

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made thee free from the law of sin and of death.” (Rom. 8:2)

We cannot be declared free from the law of sin and death if we are required to become righteous. We are declared righteous because our sins were imputed to Christ and His righteousness imputed to us. This happens because of faith and God keeps us by faith.

Remember that Jesus was born under the Law and lived His live blameless. No other human can make that claim. It would be impossible for one to cancel out the sin they commit through any amount of works and suffering.

The New Testament declares that our sins are imputed to Christ.

“And he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while in uncircumcision, that he might be the father of all that believe while yet in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be counted to them (imputation), and the father of circumcision to them that are not of the circumcision only, but that also walk in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham, which he had while in uncircumcision.” (Rom. 4:11-12)

“It was not written, however, for his sake, only that it was counted to him, but also for the sake of us. to whom it shall be counted if we believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and raised because of our justification.” (Rom. 4:23-25)

And what about an Old Testament type?

When the High Priest laid his hands upon the goat, the sins of Israel were imputed to the goat, which was then driven out into the wilderness. Where is the Old Testament type for the “infusion” doctrine?

And what about the ancient church?

“Since, therefore, Abraham was a prophet and saw in the Spirit the day of the Lord’s coming, and the dispensation of His suffering, through whom both he himself and all who, following the example of his faith, trust in God, should be saved, he rejoiced exceedingly. The Lord, therefore, was not unknown to Abraham, whose day he desired to see nor, again, was the Lord’s Father, for he had learned from the Word of the Lord, and believed Him; wherefore it was accounted to him by the Lord for righteousness. For faith towards God justifies a man; and therefore he said, “I will stretch forth my hand to the most high God, who made the heaven and the earth.’” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4:5:5) (Emphasis added)

 

[guanophore]

It is the work and pleasure of Christ to sanctify the believer.

Amen!

But He does not do this apart from the consent and cooperation of the believer.

 I think sanctification like righteousness is imputed to the believer.

To the extent that it is worked in us by God, yes. however, we must also work out that which is has been placed in us (Phil 2:12). We must co-operate with grace.

I do not think in righteousness or sanctification we can ever be before God unless it is imputed to us here’s why. If we are truly as perfected as you allude then we would be equal to God and  our perfection though is never equal to that of God.

What “allusion” do you think I have made?"

Being a truly perfected human beings does NOT make us “equal to God”. We are creatures. We can NEVER be equal to God. But God did not create man with sin, and when we get to heaven, we will have NO SIN. We will not be merely declared righteous, but MADE righteous.

In Rev 7:14 we are standing before the Father only covered in Christ’s righteousness.

No, jericho. they washed their own robes. They have BECOME the righteousness of God, in Christ. I think you underestimate God’s plan for mankind.

John 10:34-35
"Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ — and the scripture cannot be annulled

He plans to share His Divinity with us.

2 Peter 1:3-4
4 Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.

We have become partakers/participants of the divine nature.

Do you think when the Father looks at us He sees our righteousness/sanctification or that of His Son?

The two are no longer separated in the sanctified believer. We have died, and our life is hidden with Christ, in God. It is no longer we who live, but Christ, who lives in us.

John 17:19 (New King James Version)

19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

The HS is the sanctifier.

1 John 3:2-3
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is. 3 And all who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

James 4:7-8
8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts,

How does one purify oneself?

2 Peter 1:5
5 For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness

Whose responsibility is it to put forth this “effort”?

Ephesians 5:26 (New King James Version)
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

2 Tim 2:21
21 All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work.

Whose responsibiltity is this cleansing?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (New King James Version)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen!

Heb 12:14-15

Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Whose responsibility is it to pursue holiness?

Hebrews 13:12 (New King James Version)
12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

And we are to take up our cross, and follow Him. This is how we are sanctified.

Jude 19-20
20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith;

Who does the building?

We work together with His grace; it is not a passive event, but an active. That is why the Apostle says “faith without works is dead”.

 

[guanophore]

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made thee free from the law of sin and of death.” (Rom. 8:2)

We cannot be declared free from the law of sin and death if we are required to become righteous.

How do you figure that?

Righteousness cannot be obtained by following the Law, but it can by grace, through faith.

Rom 9:30-32
Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; 31 but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. 32 Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works.

If God cannot make us righteous, then Jesus died in vain.(see dcana’s post above).

We are declared righteous because our sins were imputed to Christ and His righteousness imputed to us. This happens because of faith and God keeps us by faith.[/qutoe]

This is true, but I fear you have a deficient understanding of imputation. To have grace imputed to us means that we are actually given righteousness. You may have to catch up on the thread.
Brian Culliton;7721978:

Remember that Jesus was born under the Law and lived His live blameless.  No other human can make that claim.  It would be impossible for one to cancel out the sin they commit through any amount of works and suffering.

You are quite wrong about this, Brian. God does not ask us to do that which He will not enable us to do. We can, and should, live without sin.

The New Testament declares that our sins are imputed to Christ.

Which is WHY we can be Holy, as He is Holy.

When the High Priest laid his hands upon the goat, the sins of Israel were imputed to the goat, which was then driven out into the wilderness. Where is the Old Testament type for the “infusion” doctrine?

I think I will leave you to read up on the thread, Brian. All the scriptures have been posted.

If Jesus did not save us from our sins, then what was the point?

And what about the ancient church?

The early Christians believed that we were to be made righteous.

“But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the
whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last
time.” (Didache 16)

“Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions.” St. Justin Martyr (“First Apology,” c. 160 A.D.)

And since you like Irenaeus’ Against Heresies:

He(God) declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and ye are all sons of the Highest.” But since we could not sustain the power of divinity, He adds, “But ye shall die like men," setting forth both truths - the kindness of His free gift, and our weakness, and also that we were possessed of power over ourselves. **For after His great kindness He graciously conferred good [upon us], and made men like to Himself, [that is] in their own power; while at the same time by His prescience **He knew the infirmity of human beings, and the consequences which would flow from it; but through [His] love and [His] power, He shall overcome the substance of created nature. For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God, having received the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[guanophore]

So yes,Jeri Scripture tells us we are credited with righteousness,justification, but after accepting that, which Christ did for us, we must be Baptized by the Trinity formula. Baptism removes all sin, the Holy Spirit then Infuses the clean soul,free from sin, with sanctifying grace so as to give us the power to become holy as God is holy it is not given to make us as God. That is the way Catholics understand justification.(and it is a life long process it does not just happen one time and you are done with it).** You by reformation teaching , something taught by Calvin I believe, can’t seem to grasp it**.

Persons contaminated by the heresies of Calvin have a deficient understanding of many foundational concepts such as the nature of humanity, the nature of the Church, and the nature of salvation. There are so many deficiencies in understanding created by all these that it is difficult for them to understand the Apostolic Teaching. They have been given opposing views, supported by Scripture, and trained to believe these ideas are from God.

 

[jericho777]

No. Of course not. That is absurd. We already covered this ground jericho. We agreed that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves. lest any man should boast.

We also agreed that becoming partakers of His grace does not make us God.

You are describing an early heresy that was defeated by the Catholic Church called Semi-Pelagianism.

I dont’ think so, jericho. I think you are just making stuff up on the spot so you don’t have to accept what the Catholic Church teaches. I will give you a suggestion. Read what the Catholic Church believes about being justified by grace, through faith.

Pelagian heresy.

The fact that we are truly righteous through the core of our being does NOT have ANYTHING to do with our own righteousness. By His Spirit we BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ. We are not just “covered”.

2 Cor 5:20-21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so** that in him we might become the righteousness of God. **

Thanks Guan, I was not my intention to rehash any previous material. And no I’m not making it up as I go. But yours and Carlan’s responses prompted me think that if infused righteousness did not cover the sinner (imputation) but actually made them righteous. Was that righteousness then inherent to the believer? Because when our righteousness is “through the core” to me it implies inherency that we now become righteous. Whereas credited to us (imputed) it is never our righteousness in the first place buy we are relying on Christ to our benefit. So when we are standing before the Father He sees Christ’s righteousness and not ours.

 

[jericho777]

Sort of. It i****s the holiness of Jesus which has now made THEM clean.

The idea of imputation only goes so far as to show that Christ’s sacrifice paid our debt. Other than that – if we are not made perfect by the INFUSION of his grace/righteousness – we cannot hope to get into heaven.

The multitude in Rev. 7:14 isn’t “covered” by the righteousness of Christ – they have been MADE righteous by his blood. They have washed their robes clean in Christ’s blood by their faithfulness. They weren’t simply given robes to cover their own.

Rom. 4** talks about Abraham’s faith being credited to him as righteousness. Christ had not yet come to complete his work of redemption. Abraham came *before ***that –before the Law even – so Christ’s righteousness was imputed to him. As a matter of fact, even when he was uncircumcised.

On the other hand - we have been redeemed by the finished work of Christ. God’s grace is infused in us – it is poured out and imparted to us. It is not simply credited to our account and it doesn’t simply cover our filth. As I have pointed out several times already – nothing unclean can enter heaven – even if our account is covered. We must first be MADE righteous and clean by Christ’ sacrifice before entering heaven.
**Jesus said: “*So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” ***
**We are not **perfect if we are simply covered.

You want proof? The following verses prove that God’s grace is infused in us and NOT simply used as a blanket on us. You must remember that Scripture cannot contradict itself. It all must remain harmonious or it is all a lie. The following verses debunk the idea that Jesus’ righteousness is simply imputed to us. He MAKES us righteous:

"You are the fairest of the sons of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you for ever"** (Psalm 45:2**).

"For the palace will be forsaken . . . until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest" (Isaiah 32:14-15).

"And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy" (Acts 2:17-18).

"And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness" (Acts 4:31).

"And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people"** (Acts 6:8**).

"And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles"** (Acts 10:45**).

"When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose; for he was a good man (Barnabas), full of the Holy Spirit and of faith" (Acts 11:23-24).

"And hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us" (Romans 5:5).

"And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18).

"He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:5-7)

Hi elvis, if the people in Rev 7:14 are now truly righteous whose righteousness is it that God sees?

If imputed righteousness was before Jesus’ death and infusion was after why didn’t Paul differentiate between the two? In fact he never does and continues to perpetuate imputation. He also never even uses a word that means infusion.

 

[elvisman]

Hi elvis, if the people in Rev 7:14 are now truly righteous whose righteousness is it that God sees?

If imputed righteousness was before Jesus’ death and infusion was after why didn’t Paul differentiate between the two? In fact he never does and continues to perpetuate imputation. He also never even uses a word that means infusion.

Every single verse I presented shows that God’s grace is infused in us to make ud righteous - perfect.
We HAVE to be righteous - PERFECT before entering heaven. Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven and Christ himself tells us to be perfect - as our father in heaven is perfect - HOW can we get into heaven? By the grace of God making us righteous before we enter. **

**This is why the Cathlic church has never taught that we enter heaven covered in Christ’s righteousness. We teach that he actually makes us perfect before we can even enter heaven. For some - this requires a purgation of the temporal effects of sin - but that is for another thread. HIS righteouseness, yes - but INFUSED, rather than simply declared.

I feel that some Catholics on this thread have confused this point.

 

[Carlan]

Every single verse I presented shows that God’s grace is infused in us to make ud righteous - perfect.
We HAVE to be righteous - PERFECT before entering heaven. Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that* nothing* unclean can enter heaven and Christ himself tells us to be perfect - as our father in heaven is perfect - HOW can we get into heaven? By the grace of God making us righteous before we enter.

This is why the Cathlic church has never taught that we enter heaven covered in Christ’s righteousness. We teach that he actually makes us perfect before we can even enter heaven. For some - this requires a purgation of the temporal effects of sin - but that is for another thread. HIS righteouseness, *yes *- but INFUSED, rather than simply declared.

I feel that some Catholics on this thread have confused this point.

Yes, Elvis, that is right, We Catholics see it as more than the covering over of sin but as a deep infusion into the Baptised cleansed soul,rid of all sin, with the gift of sanctifying grace, Peace, Carlan

 

[SyCarl]

Every single verse I presented shows that God’s grace is infused in us to make ud righteous - perfect.
We HAVE to be righteous - PERFECT before entering heaven. Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that* nothing* unclean can enter heaven and Christ himself tells us to be perfect - as our father in heaven is perfect - HOW can we get into heaven? By the grace of God making us righteous before we enter.

This is why the Cathlic church has never taught that we enter heaven covered in Christ’s righteousness. We teach that he actually makes us perfect before we can even enter heaven. For some - this requires a purgation of the temporal effects of sin - but that is for another thread. HIS righteouseness, *yes *- but INFUSED, rather than simply declared.

Let me start out first by saying that I do not fully accept Calvinism particularly with respect to predestination and the perseverance of the saints. That being said, I think there is a misunderstanding as to exactly what Reformed theology teaches with respect to salvation. While it is taught that Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us, this does not mean that nothing changes within us. The misunderstanding seems to come about by comparing the Reformed view of justification with the Catholic view. Reformed teaching distinguishes between different parts of salvation of which justification is only a part. Salvation involves regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification.
In regeneration we are given a new heart and spirit. This is a change within us. The Westminster Confession of Faith states:

All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

opc.org/wcf.html

Justification involves both forgiving our sin and imputing Christ’s righteousness to us.

Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

This imputation is required because, even though we have been changed, we are not perfectly righteous in this life.

Sanctification involves striving against our remaining sinful nature to become more and more holy.

They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

However perfect righteousness is not achieved in this life. This will only occur after death through glorification.

This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh

.
This is where the imputed righteousness of Christ becomes important. Our remaining sin nature means our works can never reach the perfection required by God. We need Christ’s righteousness to make them acceptable in God’s sight.

Notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreprovable in God’s sight; but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.

 

[SyCarl]

As Augustine says about our righteousness in this life.

Therefore the first commandment about righteousness, which bids us love the Lord with all our heart, and soul, and mind (the next to which is, that we love our neighbour as ourselves), we shall completely fulfil in that life when we shall see face to face. But even now this commandment is enjoined upon us, that we may be reminded what we ought by faith to require, and what we should in our hope look forward to, and, “forgetting the things which are behind, reach forth to the things which are before.” And thus, as it appears to me, that man has made a far advance, even in the present life, in the righteousness which is to be perfected hereafter, who has discovered by this very advance how very far removed he is from the completion of righteousness.
Forasmuch, however, as an inferior righteousness may be said to be competent to this life, whereby the just man lives by faith, although absent from the Lord, and, therefore, walking by faith and not yet by sight,—it may be without absurdity said, no doubt, in respect of it, that it is free from sin; for it ought not to be attributed to it as a fault, that it is not as yet sufficient for so great a love to God as is due to the final, complete, and perfect condition thereof….And do they prove this to be wrong which is written, “In Thy sight shall no man living be justified?” and this: “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us?” and, “There is no man that sinneth not;” and again, “There is not on the earth a righteous man, who doeth good and sinneth not” (for both these statements are expressed in a general future sense,—“sinneth not,” “will not sin,”—not in the past time, “has not sinned”)?—and all other places of this purport contained in the Holy Scripture? Since, however, these passages cannot possibly be false, it plainly follows, to my mind, that whatever be the quality or extent of the righteousness which we may definitely ascribe to the present life, there is not a man living in it who is absolutely free from all sin;

With respect to the subject of this thread, Reformed theology speaks of persaverance of the saints rather than once saved always saved. In any event, this is, at best, a trite truism. If one defines the elect as those will ultimately be with Jesus in Heaven, it follows by definition that they will persevere to the end. However, no one can know that they are of the elect until they actually do persevere so the matter has no practical use.
(Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, Chapter 7)
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xviii.iii.vii.html?scrBook=Rom&scrCh=1&scrV=17#xviii.iii.vii-p5.1

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Every single verse I presented shows that God’s grace is infused in us to make ud righteous - perfect.
We HAVE to be righteous - PERFECT before entering heaven. Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that* nothing* unclean can enter heaven and Christ himself tells us to be perfect - as our father in heaven is perfect - HOW can we get into heaven? By the grace of God making us righteous before we enter.

This is why the Cathlic church has never taught that we enter heaven covered in Christ’s righteousness. We teach that he actually makes us perfect before we can even enter heaven. For some - this requires a purgation of the temporal effects of sin - but that is for another thread. HIS righteouseness, *yes *- but INFUSED, rather than simply declared.

I feel that some Catholics on this thread have confused this point.

Yes, I think they have. But I think you spelled it out pretty well. What I understand from you is that Catholics believe our sins are only partially bound to Christ’s sacrifice. In other words, you do not believe that all the sins, past and future, of a believer are imputed to Christ at His crucifixion. You appear to be saying that once you are cleansed by baptism, you must pay for any sins you commit there after. And in order to be able to do that and possibly obtain righteousness, you claim that God has infused you with the Holy Spirit. And in order to enter heaven you must achieve your own righteousness with the help of the Holy Spirit that has been infused into your soul.

Am I right?

 

[Third_Day]

. Whereas credited to us (imputed) it is never our righteousness in the first place buy we are relying on Christ to our benefit. So when we are standing before the Father He sees Christ’s righteousness and not ours.

Are you saying that in heaven we are not truly, actually sanctified but we are truly, actually still full of sin? God just declares us to be sanctified?