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Lisa44
Guest
Right. So where is the free will to choose God if we can only sin?
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PRmerger
Guest
It comes when we are born again through baptism.
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Lisa44
Guest
So, unbaptized people have no free will?
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PRmerger
Guest
They have a greatly diminished ability to choose God.
Now, of course, God can infuse His Grace on anyone He chooses, in any manner He chooses, but without grace we cannot choose Him.
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Lisa44
Guest
No one is baptized at birth so that means that we are not born with free will.
And that means that we can’t choose baptism either, since we have no free will.
And that means that we can’t choose baptism either, since we have no free will.
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PRmerger
Guest
We have only the ability to choose sin, until we are baptized. Or rather, a diminished ability to see things as they really are (and not choose sin).
And yes, babies don’t have free will. They can’t “will” freely until the age of reason, right?
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Cat_Herder
Guest
Until we are initially justified our will is wounded, but still somewhat free.
The Holy Spirit can lead a person to baptism. Look what happened to St. Paul.
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fhansen
Guest
But even then we have the freedom to reject grace-we never have to respond. And we require grace to continue to grow in holiness, we can always forfeit our salvation and fall back into the pit. IOW ultimately we’re not saved until the end, when Jesus judges us. Grace is always resistible along the way because God requires our cooperation. We can’t be saved without Him, he won’t save us without us.
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PRmerger
Guest
This one goes on my “Apologetics” word document saved on my hard drive!
If this were Facebook I’d click “Like!”
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fhansen
Guest
Won’t take the credit-I think I heard it somewhere before.This one goes on my “Apologetics” word document saved on my hard drive!
If this were Facebook I’d click “Like!”
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PRmerger
Guest
As with most Catholic answers, we’re really not saying anything new, eh?Won’t take the credit-I think I heard it somewhere before.
I think I heard Fr. Corapi (may God bless him in whatever is going on with him!) say (paraphrasing):
Someone was trying to get her husband to come to one of my talks. The husband sniffed, “Well, he’s not going to say anything new, anything I haven’t already heard before.” and I [Fr. Corapi] said, “May God strike me down if I ever say “anything new”. My goal as a preacher is to only repeat that which was said, once for all, 2000 years ago!”
(Note: I am aware of the news reports regarding Fr. Corapi, and I happen to think he’s gone off his rocker, but I don’t believe that this current craziness gives us license to dismiss every truth he hasever proclaimed (or, rather, repeated). He happens to be right in this situation.
Let us pray for him!)
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fhansen
Guest
Like us all he’s an unlikely mix of the sacred and the profane-but the two quite a bit more polarized in his case, I’d say. In any case I don’t believe his Christian walk was all phony-I think he had the right stuff, but couldn’t resist the wrong stuff at the same time. Doesn’t say a lot for his integrity but at the same time I’d bet it wasn’t without struggle for him. Maybe not-I haven’t followed any of it too closely.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Lisa44,
Maybe you are onto something here…
I have never really seen rationality, or intellect, or compassion or on the flip side, I have not seen irrationality, stupidity or hatred. You can not put the brain - which we can see and feel and cut into sections for slides to look under a microscope - in a CAT scanner or an MRI and visualize anything like these items I have mentioned. And, you know, the soul obviously does not exist because, it can not be identified either.
This is sserious!
But, maybe … you know, just maybe … that if we can determine from BEHAVIOR that some one can act in a purposeful manner, show compassion to others, show hatred for sin, try to help those who are not rational or educate those who just don’t know and the world calls stupid - THEN these attributes which are quite human really do exist.
I chose to respond to your post. While I can demostrate that I have intellect to compose a rational message, and physical dexterity to work a keyboard - I think I can also demonstrate that I have freely chosen to send this post. By the same token, you can use your free will to respond. It really is your choice. Those who claim that their thoughts and actions are controlled from outside of their body tend to have seious problems in other areas.
Your free choice … so what are you going to do?
God bless
Maybe you are onto something here…
I have never really seen rationality, or intellect, or compassion or on the flip side, I have not seen irrationality, stupidity or hatred. You can not put the brain - which we can see and feel and cut into sections for slides to look under a microscope - in a CAT scanner or an MRI and visualize anything like these items I have mentioned. And, you know, the soul obviously does not exist because, it can not be identified either.
This is sserious!But, maybe … you know, just maybe … that if we can determine from BEHAVIOR that some one can act in a purposeful manner, show compassion to others, show hatred for sin, try to help those who are not rational or educate those who just don’t know and the world calls stupid - THEN these attributes which are quite human really do exist.
I chose to respond to your post. While I can demostrate that I have intellect to compose a rational message, and physical dexterity to work a keyboard - I think I can also demonstrate that I have freely chosen to send this post. By the same token, you can use your free will to respond. It really is your choice. Those who claim that their thoughts and actions are controlled from outside of their body tend to have seious problems in other areas.
Your free choice … so what are you going to do?
God bless
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
And how is theological truth determined, in your opinion?
Protestantism’s premise is that theological truth rests only in the Bible. There are thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant denominations that claim their interpretation is the truth, yet no two of them agree about what the Bible means.
The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. The Catholic Church is not based on the NT; rather, the NT is based on the Catholic Church.
OSAS is a come-lately invention. Like Sola Fide, it was born in the 16th century. It is out of the mind of John Calvin. He bought Luther’s doctrine of Sola Scriptura, but not Luther’s interpretation; instead, he started his own Reform movement with an entirely different spin on the Scriptures.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints
Perseverance of the saints, as well as the corollary—though distinct—doctrine known as “Once Saved, Always Saved”, is a Calvinist teaching that once persons are truly saved they can never lose their salvation. (color added)
. . .]
The Westminster Confession of Faith has defined perseverance as follows:
They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. ─ Westminster Confession of Faith (chap. 17, sec. 1).[2]
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paul_c
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I think this is the perfect time to give you the summarized view of Catholic Sotierology.
God calls to each one of us throughout our lives in various ways to come to him. Those that accept this call and desire to do his will are baptized into the church in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This baptism is a convential relationship that is a pure gift for all those that ask. Those that are baptized are forgiven all prior sin, are given the grace to do good works and become members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. In this way, they are saved by entering into the state of grace. And if we are in the state of grace at death, we will go to heaven.
But it is a covenential relationship. Once we are born again through baptism, we must do God’s will to stay in the state of grace, loving God and neighbor and avoiding mortal sin. If we turn from God through sin, we fall from Grace and will be condemned to hell. However, through God’s perfect mercy, we can be reconciled to him through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) and regain the state of grace. Further, we can be strengthened against future sin, through prayer, good works, devotions and most especially, the eucharist. God, in his mercy, will always take us back as often as we are willing.
As I mentioned, if we die in the state of grace, we will go to heaven. However, if the tendency to sin has not been purged from us in life, we will go to purgatory first, where all tendency to sin will be eliminated because nothing unclean will enter heaven.
So you see, works do not save us. What saves us is our desire for God’s grace (Faith). But indeed, it is works of love that keep us safe. If you reflect upon 1Corinthians 13, you will understand that is the reason that Paul rates Love as more important than Faith and it also explains the urgency of James 2.
I hope this helps you understand better where we are coming from.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
The New Testament says we may know we are saved as long as we keep the commandments and obey the other requirements for entering heaven. Since we can’t know our future, we can’t be sure we’ll always be in a state of grace. Therefore, we have assurance, but not the absolute certainty that OSAS believers claim.They’re not. I’ve never said they were, but only that they state that one can know one is saved.
How about Jn 6:47: Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in me has everlasting life (cf Jn 6:35-37).
So are you, and every Catholic his own authority, authorized by himself, unless of course you became Catholic in a vacuum. Did you?
Quoting John 6:47 as “proof” is folly. The point of the entire sixth chapter of John is that we must eat the body and drink the blood of Christ to have eternal life, which most Protestants dispute. Quoting any verse out of context leads to misinterpretation. The New Testament was written by the leaders of the Catholic Church, and the teaching of the Church is a template for reading and understanding it. Thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant denominations prove the folly of interpreting the NT apart from its source. It didn’t just fall out of heaven.
No, Catholics are not their own authority. The Church, founded by Christ for the salvation of the world, is the God-given authority for everything a Catholic believes. The 2,000-year-old Catholic Church teaches what Christ and the Apostles taught.
The canon of the Bible was discerned by Catholic bishops at the end of the fourth century so that only approved, authorized writings would be read aloud, by the few who could read, during the Church’s liturgy. The ability to read became common only in the 19th century with the advancement of literacy. Parsing the Scriptures as Protestants do is a relatively new phenomenon. But, then, Protestantism itself is only 500 years old.
Christianity wasn’t based on the Bible, but on the teaching of the Catholic Church. The Church wrote the NT and compiled the Bible under the guidance of the Spirit.
Should you wish to know the history of the New Testament and the Bible, you can read Where We Got the Bible, Our Debt to the Catholic Church, written by Henry Graham, a former Presbyterian minister (and ex-believer in OSAS), online:
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm
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Cat_Herder
Guest
First Sig said that predestination determined who was saved, now Sig is saying it’s “faith” or “believing” in Jesus. Sig does not know what Sig actually believes and yet Sig wants to tell us all not only what we believe, but what we are supposed to believe.
If you’re going to make me play Whack-a-Mole, then I expect to be given a teddy bear for my efforts.
If you’re going to make me play Whack-a-Mole, then I expect to be given a teddy bear for my efforts.
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paul_c
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Sig, this is also the time to explain the catholic view on the interplay between man’s free will and God’s sovereignty.
In the Catholic view, God is infinitely sovereign and man also maintains true free will. While this seems impossible to Calvinists, it is because they don’t appreciate how great God really is. He can carry out his plan while allowing man true free will. The exact way his does this is unknowable this side of heaven, but all Catholics believe it is true. Molina speculated that God can see all things simultaneously and knows exactly how man will react in every situation, so his plans take into account what he knows each man will do. This does not infringe on man’s free will - he still acts freely and can choose right from wrong. This does not mean that certain men and women are not pre-destined for heaven. They are. For instance, Mary was born without original sin but she still had the choice to conceive Jesus…
No one, however is pre-destined to be condemned. We all have the choice to follow God’s will or to turn from him in sin.
The Calvinists view of man and God diminishes both. Man, being predestined to heaven or hell, is reduced to an automaton, simply playing his role. God, is likewise diminished, seen as unable to execute his plan if man had free will and is thus reduced to a petty tyrant, forcing man to do exactly what he wants and condemning certain men to eternal suffering through no fault of thier own. Where is the love and justice in that?
The truth is so much different. Read Genesis. God created man in his own image, capable of reason and love and endowed with free will so that he can make real choices. God further gives every man a concience to lead man to Himself. He then came in the person of Jesus Christ to show man how to love perfectly through his sacrifice on the cross. Why would he do this, if he wasn’t giving man the choice to love him or to turn from him in sin. And why would the Epistles be so filled with admonissions to lead the Christian life, if ultimately it does’t matter because every man’s destiny is predefined
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fhansen
Guest
Calvinists believe that prevenient grace is irresistible and causes the elect to believe. So the will of the person is still considered to be out of the picture.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
That man has free will is a doctrine of the Catholic Church. Read paragraphs 908, 1730 - 1744, 1748, 1861, 2008 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you don’t have one, you’ll find it online at scborromeo.org/. There are many other online sources for the Catechism, but this website has a lot of other materials that would be helpful to you as well.
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