Once Saved Always Saved?

[Sig]

No. Well, not only by works.

OK, so you’re partly saved by works.

 

[Sig]

How can you say that? God allows us to override His will-that’s what made Adam & Eve’s sin possible.

Well I certainly agree that God allows men to break His permissive will, but not His secret will, in which, probably, is God’s will that people break His permissive will.

Because love is always opposed to legalism-and James would never suggest that legalism must work together with faith.

You’re worried about being a legalist, are you? What’s a legalist to you?

 

[Lisa44]

We have only the ability to choose sin, until we are baptized. Or rather, a diminished ability to see things as they really are (and not choose sin).

And yes, babies don’t have free will. They can’t “will” freely until the age of reason, right?

You said the unbaptized don’t have free will. That includes unbaptized adults.

 

[Lisa44]

Until we are initially justified our will is wounded, but still somewhat free.

The Holy Spirit can lead a person to baptism. Look what happened to St. Paul.

What is “somewhat” free?

 

[Sig]

Sure I did. Reread it. No one is saved-Calvinists included-unless they willfully pick up their cross and follow Jesus-along the way God’s planned for them which inevitably includes works-expressions of love. Read the Parable of the Talents. It explains the grace/free will dynamic-and the consequences of not going along with the plan.

Actually, Scripture says that men are saved by grace through faith, and not by cross-bearing, and I’ve read the parable of the talents, and do not consider the point of the parable to be an exposition on how one is saved, which salvation has always come by grace through faith in God.

 

[Lisa44]

But even then we have the freedom to reject grace-we never have to respond. And we require grace to continue to grow in holiness, we can always forfeit our salvation and fall back into the pit. IOW ultimately we’re not saved until the end, when Jesus judges us. Grace is always resistible along the way because God requires our cooperation. We can’t be saved without Him, he won’t save us without us.

Why is it so hard to say that God saves us? Why do we have to consider ourselves part of that salvation? I’m just curious.

 

[Sig]

Sin, which is lack of grace. That’s why I don’t find that your argument holds water too terribly much. Perhaps you could elaborate in the morning when you read this.

Scripture doesn’t describe sin as a “lack of” anything.

Sin is a “positive” something that entered the world on account of Adam’s sin, and it lies it at the door, desiring men (Rom 5:12; Gen 4:7).

 

[Sig]

Right. So where is the free will to choose God if we can only sin?

Unregenerate men are free only to choose sin; therefore, their will is not truly free, but their will is in bondage.

 

[Sig]

It comes when we are born again through baptism.

Free will comes only after baptism, and men are then able to choose God? Is that right?

 

[Sig]

They have a greatly diminished ability to choose God.

There is none who seeks after God… (Rom 3:11). So men have a diminished ability to choose God, according to you, and according to Scripture, men have no desire to seek God. Hmmmm.

 

[Sig]

…we can always forfeit our salvation and fall back into the pit.

What biblical support do you offer for that assertion?

IOW ultimately we’re not saved until the end, when Jesus judges us.

Those who believe have passed through judgment and condemnation, and have complete salvation NOW (Jn 5;24).

 

[Sig]

And how is theological truth determined, in your opinion?

From Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

OK, so you’re partly saved by works.

That’s what the Bible says.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:6-7[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Lisa44]

Hi, Lisa44,

Maybe you are onto something here…

I have never really seen rationality, or intellect, or compassion or on the flip side, I have not seen irrationality, stupidity or hatred. You can not put the brain - which we can see and feel and cut into sections for slides to look under a microscope - in a CAT scanner or an MRI and visualize anything like these items I have mentioned. And, you know, the soul obviously does not exist because, it can not be identified either. This is sserious!

But, maybe … you know, just maybe … that if we can determine from BEHAVIOR that some one can act in a purposeful manner, show compassion to others, show hatred for sin, try to help those who are not rational or educate those who just don’t know and the world calls stupid - THEN these attributes which are quite human really do exist.

I chose to respond to your post. While I can demostrate that I have intellect to compose a rational message, and physical dexterity to work a keyboard - I think I can also demonstrate that I have freely chosen to send this post. By the same token, you can use your free will to respond. It really is your choice. Those who claim that their thoughts and actions are controlled from outside of their body tend to have seious problems in other areas.

Your free choice … so what are you going to do?

God bless

So what you are telling me is you and God are partners and you do things together? You have your (name removed by moderator)ut and he has his? And together you rule the universe?

 

[PRmerger]

You said the unbaptized don’t have free will. That includes unbaptized adults.

Actually, what I said was:

Or rather, a diminished ability to see things as they really are (and not choose sin).

and this:

They have a greatly diminished ability to choose God.

 

[PRmerger]

From Scripture.

And how do you know what’s Scripture? How do you know that Hebrews is inspired and not the Gospel of Thomas?

 

[Sig]

I think this is the perfect time to give you the summarized view of Catholic Sotierology.

God calls to each one of us throughout our lives in various ways to come to him. Those that accept this call and desire to do his will are baptized into the church in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This baptism is a convential relationship that is a pure gift for all those that ask. Those that are baptized are forgiven all prior sin, are given the grace to do good works and become members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. In this way, they are saved by entering into the state of grace. And if we are in the state of grace at death, we will go to heaven.

But it is a covenential relationship. Once we are born again through baptism, we must do God’s will to stay in the state of grace, loving God and neighbor and avoiding mortal sin. If we turn from God through sin, we fall from Grace and will be condemned to hell. However, through God’s perfect mercy, we can be reconciled to him through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) and regain the state of grace. Further, we can be strengthened against future sin, through prayer, good works, devotions and most especially, the eucharist. God, in his mercy, will always take us back as often as we are willing.

As I mentioned, if we die in the state of grace, we will go to heaven. However, if the tendency to sin has not been purged from us in life, we will go to purgatory first, where all tendency to sin will be eliminated because nothing unclean will enter heaven.

So you see, works do not save us. What saves us is our desire for God’s grace (Faith). But indeed, it is works of love that keep us safe. If you reflect upon 1Corinthians 13, you will understand that is the reason that Paul rates Love as more important than Faith and it also explains the urgency of James 2.

I hope this helps you understand better where we are coming from.

This Catholic says he is partly saved by his works:

PRmerger:

No. Well, not only by works.

Seems Catholics might be guilty of what they say protestants are guilty of regarding what the great differences of opinion concerning what the Scriptures say.

 

[PRmerger]

Free will comes only after baptism,

No, no!

I fear, due to at least 2 posters misunderstanding, that I did not articulate myself well.

When we are able to reason, we have free will. We can choose to do good, or we can choose to do evil.

It is only through GOD’S GRACE that we can choose Good. This grace is infused in us during baptism.

However, God can speak to the heart and light the fire, so to speak, without baptism.

At any rate, it is still GOD who acts first, and the person who then responds.

and men are then able to choose God? Is that right?

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit then, and only then, is he able to choose God.

 

[Lisa44]

We have only the ability to choose sin, until we are baptized. Or rather, a diminished ability to see things as they really are (and not choose sin).

And yes, babies don’t have free will. They can’t “will” freely until the age of reason, right?

Actually, what I said was:

and this:

That is what I was responding to.

 

[Sig]

The New Testament says we may know we are saved as long as we keep the commandments and obey the other requirements for entering heaven.

By grace you have been saved through faith, not by works.

Since we can’t know our future, we can’t be sure we’ll always be in a state of grace. Therefore, we have assurance, but not the absolute certainty that OSAS believers claim.

Don’t include me in your use of “we.” While you may not know any of those things, I do know them, and I know what Scripture says concerning them, and I have complete assurance because my complete reliance for salvation is in God, and not in me.

Believe me, if it were possible to lose salvation, I would lose it. I’m not righteous enough, not good enough. God must save, and keep me by grace, as He promised, or I’m doomed, amen.

Quoting John 6:47 as “proof” is folly. The point of the entire sixth chapter of John is that we must eat the body and drink the blood of Christ to have eternal life, which most Protestants dispute. Quoting any verse out of context leads to misinterpretation.

Have you read the passage, because that’s not the point of the passage according to Jesus. Jesus starts out the passage making His point in v44, and reiterating the point in v65.

Here’s Jesus’ point: ”No one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father” (v 65).

No, Catholics are not their own authority.

Yes they are. You had to engage in some sort of private interpretation of both scripture and history, and then, volitionally choose to become a Catholic.

You may not be aware of that truth, but trust me, you’ve all done it.

And let me add there’s no shame in doing that. All you lose is the ability to wag you finger at others and accuse them of doing what you, yourself, do.