Once Saved Always Saved?

[PRmerger]

Do whatever you need to, but as a rule of thumb, it’s better not to post verses if you don’t know what, or why you’re posting them.

Are you not familiar with rhetorical questions?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sig,

I stand corrected.

God bless

FYI, it’s not Paul who said that.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Post # please.

Then what IS your position on works?

 

[Sig]

The same way you do: through the paradosis. That is, through Sacred Tradition.

Well then, there you have it.

 

[Sig]

Then what IS your position on works?

No post #, no answer. I’m tired of your false attributions.

 

[Sig]

Are you not familiar with rhetorical questions?

I am.

 

[Anthony_V]

Scripture doesn’t describe sin as a “lack of” anything.

Sin is a “positive” something that entered the world on account of Adam’s sin, and it lies it at the door, desiring men (Rom 5:12; Gen 4:7).

You’re trying to tie two separate things together.
There is the sin committed (the actual sin), and its effects (devoid of grace). Srictly speaking, sin is not a noun, just a verb. Don’t confuse the two! Just as darkness is not the presence of “darkness”, but rather the lack of light, so sin (in all practical purposes as a noun) is not the presence of a new primal power, but rather the lack of grace.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death*; and so death*** passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.**
*Sin is not an entity. It is an action, whose effects are devoid of grace. There is no new introduction of principality of dominion. It is just the action that has entered the world, because it is original sin. If this passage was speaking literally, then Satan’s sin against God would have created this principality of sin.
**Death is by lack of grace through effects of original sin.
***Further emphasized here, the passage is describing death itself as an entity. This is personification, not to be taken literally. Sin is not an entity, and death is not an entity. They are ways to describe lack of grace. They are effects, not principalities!

Gen 4:7
If you act rightly, you will be accepted; but if not, sin lies in wait at the door: Its urge is for you, yet you can rule over it.

Again, personification. Here’s the footnote from New American Bible (revised edition) from the USCCB website:

Lies in wait: sin is personified as a power that “lies in wait” (Heb. robes) at a place. In Mesopotamian religion, a related word (rabisu) refers to a malevolent god who attacks human beings in particular places like roofs or canals.

 

[PRmerger]

I didn’t say anything about a contradiction, but a disagreement.

Fair enough. I think you see a disagreement where there is none.

I know. You said you were not saved by your works, “completely.”

Actually, I quoted Scripture to say that we were saved by our works. But not only by works.

Again, here’s how Catholics profess we are saved (I added a few more):

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

As Catholic apologist Steve Ray says:

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

The Answer:

These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness."

 

[Sig]

You’re trying to tie two separate things together.
There is the sin committed (the actual sin), and its effects (devoid of grace). Srictly speaking, sin is not a noun, just a verb. Don’t confuse the two! Just as darkness is not the presence of “darkness”, but rather the lack of light, so sin (in all practical purposes as a noun) is not the presence of a new primal power, but rather the lack of grace.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death*; and so death*** passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.**
*Sin is not an entity. It is an action, whose effects are devoid of grace. There is no new introduction of principality of dominion. It is just the action that has entered the world, because it is original sin. If this passage was speaking literally, then Satan’s sin against God would have created this principality of sin.
**Death is by lack of grace through effects of original sin.
***Further emphasized here, the passage is describing death itself as an entity. This is personification, not to be taken literally. Sin is not an entity, and death is not an entity. They are ways to describe lack of grace. They are effects, not principalities!

Gen 4:7
If you act rightly, you will be accepted; but if not, sin lies in wait at the door: Its urge is for you, yet you can rule over it.

Again, personification. Here’s the footnote from New American Bible (revised edition) from the USCCB website:

Look Anthony, I’m really not interested in this particular discussion. What I said to you earlier on the subject was my final word.

God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

I am.

 

[fhansen]

Well then, there you have it.

No, it’s because the church has the authority; the* church*, not individuals who as often as not disagree on the meaning of scripture, is the “pillar and foundation of truth”, as per 1 Tim 3:15

 

[Anthony_V]

Look Anthony, I’m really not interested in this particular discussion. What I said to you earlier on the subject was my final word.

God bless.

Very well.

Peace,
Anthony

 

[Cat_Herder]

No post #, no answer. I’m tired of your false attributions.

No one understands you. So we ask for clarification and you call us liars.

Back to the ignore list you go.

 

[Sig]

No one understands you. So we ask for clarification and you call us liars.

You can easily clear yourself by producing the requested post #, but you won’t. I’ve asked you to repeatedly, but you won’t.

 

[Farsight001]

You can easily clear yourself by producing the requested post #, but you won’t. I’ve asked you to repeatedly, but you won’t.

Cat Herder doesn’t know what post you’re talking about. You need to be more specific. You also need to start answering our questions. When a user asks lots of question of Catholics, but refuses to answer questions themselves, the moderators tend to start seeing that as a proselytizing effort, and your account won’t last much longer. This is a discussion forum. The discussion is supposed to go in two ways, and I highly suggest you start seeing it that way.

 

[tqualey]

Hey, Sig,

That is a neat trick you have … just dismissing an entire post like it doesn’t exist and then moving on to re-hash your position with just quotes out of context. Paul is really talking about Works of the Law. Below are some Scriptural verses that you have apparently overlooked.

Is it that you are unable to distinguish between works (check out Matt 25 - you may have dismissed this too soon!) and works of the law?

Oh, and as you consider the unity of Catholics, you will note that there are not 40,000+ denominations all claiming to the have the truth, all discounting the others and not one being in agreement with anyone else - except, of course that the Catholic Church is wrong and they all agree to that…

God bless

**

Gal 2:16–21
15We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, 16 [yet] who know that a person is not justified by works of the law** but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and* not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified*.* 17But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin?* Of course not! 18But if I am building up again those things that I tore down, then I show myself to be a transgressor.* 19For through the law I died to the law,* that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me.p 21I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing

Rom 3:24–28.
24They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,q 25whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,r 26through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith.* 28For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law**

By grace you have been saved through faith, and not by works (Eph 2:8ff).

If you want to do something for salvation, and work for something that cannot be earned by works (Rom 4), go ahead.

And you’re disagreeing with Paul C. as well. Guess Catholics aren’t as unified as they claim.

 

[Sig]

Cat Herder doesn’t know what post you’re talking about. You need to be more specific.

Cat Herder’s the one making the charge. He/she should know what post he/she is talking about because I have no idea what Cat Herder’s talking about. He can’t refer me to a specific post. Hope that helps.

You also need to start answering our questions. When a user asks lots of question of Catholics, but refuses to answer questions themselves, the moderators tend to start seeing that as a proselytizing effort, and your account won’t last much longer. This is a discussion forum. The discussion is supposed to go in two ways, and I highly suggest you start seeing it that way.

I’m both answering and asking questions, and haven’t proselytized in at all that I’m aware of.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Sig,

I have had many discussions on this board with PRmerger and I can tell you definitively that we are completely aligned on this, even if we use different nomenclature. When PRmerger says taht we are partly saved by works, she is referring to the fact that we can not get to heaven without doing works of love. I phrased it differently for your benefit. We are indeed saved through grace by faith, but we can not stay saved without doing works of love. Every Catholic has on this thread has been explaining this same fact in their own way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Now if you can’t understand what I said in plain English, why are you so confident that you understand scripture properly…

You can disregard anything you want on this board. We are here to provide Catholic Answers to your questions. If you don’t want to hear the answers, why are you here?

 

[Sig]

Hey, Sig,

That is a neat trick you have … just dismissing an entire post like it doesn’t exist and then moving on to re-hash your position with just quotes out of context. Paul is really talking about Works of the Law.

Name all of the works you do that are not “Works of the Law,” please…

 

[Sig]

I have had many discussions on this board with PRmerger and I can tell you definitively that we are completely aligned on this, even if we use different nomenclature. When PRmerger says taht we are partly saved by works, she is referring to the fact that we can not get to heaven without doing works of love. I phrased it differently for your benefit. We are indeed saved through grace by faith, but we can not stay saved without doing works of love. Every Catholic has on this thread has been explaining this same fact in their own way.

OK.

You can disregard anything you want on this board. We are here to provide Catholic Answers to your questions. If you don’t want to hear the answers, why are you here?

My question was asked of you specifically in regard to your failure to understand plain English, a charge with which you incorrectly charged me. Remember?