Once Saved Always Saved?

[Lisa44]

Hi, Pitcharan,

Great post!

Truly OSAS is one of the most disappointing traditions of man in a long list of disappointing experiements for man to cook up his own religion.

And for those who claim to be Catholic and doubt that we have free will - Pitcharan’s post should clear up that misunderstanding.

God bless

I can only assume you are making a sideways reference to me? Do you mean to bear false witness against me? I’ll give you a chance to apologize.

 

[PRmerger]

Well the type of faith to which James is referring is a “said” faith minus works (v2).

James then goes to the visual of showing and seeing faith as a means for him to prove that his faith, and the faith of those examples he cites is real, true faith.

James conclusion contains that visual cue. He is talking about what a faith that saves looks like: it works.

Exactly! This is very Catholic of you to say, Sig!

As Luther said, "We are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone.

Did he have a verse in Scripture from whence he concluded this?

If James is saying that it is our works that save us, then he and Paul are at odds, and Scripture is contradictory…

Only in the same way that Scripture is “contradictory” when it says that Jesus is a man, and that Jesus is God.

Have you ever had discussions with JWs on this? Do they not claim that our understanding of the Incarnation contradicts Scripture?

I would refer to the same Scriptures you do. The authority of the church, and the gift of the Spirit.

So what church discerns the correct interpretation to 1 Peter 3:21?

Some churches say that baptism is an ordinance.
Some churches say it’s a sacrament.
Some churches say it must be done in a river.
Some churches say it must be done by sprinkling.
Some churches say it must be done by immersion.
Some churches say infants can be baptized.
Some churches say only adults…

So which church is the authority on this one particular concept, Sig?

 

[paul_c]

Paul, I am going to have to disagree with you here (but not by much! )

I see where you’re coming from, but the CAFs are a* forum*, not a bulletin board.
IOW: there’s dialogue, which involves questioning–both parties. We are certainly free to pose questions to non-Catholics, and hope for reasoned responses, esp. when they hold what appears to us to be untenable positions.

Just remember, no one owes an answer to any question on this board. We answer out of charity to each other in the hopes of finding the truth. When you find yourself pestering somone for an answer, isn’t it more about corning the person into a response than it is about genuinely understanding their position. If you pose a queston that isn’t getting a response, its probably already done what you want because they are stuck with an inconsistency. No need to rub their noses in it.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

From Scripture.

One more time (at least) – the NT consists of 27 of the Church’s own writings. And you are telling us what they mean? Absurd.

 

[PRmerger]

Explain to me again how you’re not saved by your works, but you are saved by your works?

This is how: “The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness.”–Steve Ray

So we are saved by our works, but just not saved only by our works. We need to (nonexhaustive):
(just for variety I’m not going to cite the same ole bible verses I’ve been quoting and quoting and quoting )

-repent
-eat His flesh and drink His blood
-declare with our mouths
-take up his cross
-feed his sheep
-hunger and thirst for holiness
-be merciful
-believe (but, of course, even the demons believe, and tremble)

-follow the commandments
-come to a knowledge of truth
-clothe the naked

Oh, and how would you explain to a JW that Jesus is a man, but he is also God? Don’t the Scriptures say somewhere that Jesus is a man? (BTW, Sig, this is not a rhetorical question.)

Or to an atheist that we apprehend God by both faith and reason?

Or to a Muslim that God is a God of justice and of mercy?

Are these not contradictory beliefs that you hold as a Christian?

 

[fhansen]

As Luther said, "We are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone.

So IOW, if faith isn’t accompanied by works we can’t be saved. Isn’t it rather arbitrary to redefine faith as being inclusive of works rather than keep them separate and recognize both our needed. And if works are wrong, what kind of works does Luther refer to anyway?

If James is saying that it is our works that save us, then he and Paul are at odds, and Scripture is contradictory.

.
Not if you understand scripture. It’s often said that Jesus and Paul seem to be at odds, too. But they’re talking of the same thing. To quote from another post: A major difference between Lutheranism and Catholicism is "that Lutherans believe we’re justified in the eyes of God by merely having Christ’s righteousness imputed to us-while Catholics believe God wants Christ’s righteousness to actually become *our *righteousness-because it’s the righteousness of God [Phil 3:9], determined by Him for man, which He always intended us to have, the righteousness Adam & Eve snubbed at the Fall and which man needs restoration to now.

I would refer to the same Scriptures you do. The authority of the church, and the gift of the Spirit.

Which church? Everyone claims to be guided by the Spirit, no matter how much they vary in beliefs.

 

[Lisa44]

Well the type of faith to which James is referring is a “said” faith minus works (v2).

James then goes to the visual of showing and seeing faith as a means for him to prove that his faith, and the faith of those examples he cites is real, true faith.

James conclusion contains that visual cue. He is talking about what a faith that saves looks like: it works.

As Luther said, "We are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone.

If James is saying that it is our works that save us, then he and Paul are at odds, and Scripture is contradictory…

I would refer to the same Scriptures you do. The authority of the church, and the gift of the Spirit.

On to James…
We are supposed to be doers of the law not judges of the law. So is “works” in this context (chapter 2) a reflection that a believer is also a doer?
We can’t be just believers, because we are supposed to be good to our neighbors.
That much is obvious right? Trees are known by their fruits. So our works will be a reflection of our beliefs. That is just logical.

James chapter 3 says “we all stumble in many ways” …later on it says “can a fig tree produce olives”

3:13 “Who is wise and understanding among you? He should show his works by good conduct with wisdom’s gentleness…and the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.”

chapter 4:6 God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
4:11 Don’t criticize one another, …

4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will travel to such and such a city and spend a year there and do business and make a profit.” You don’t even know what tomorrow will bring - what your life will be!..Instead you should say, “If the Lord wills, we will live, and do this or that.”

So anyways, I do not see in James that we are saved by our works per say, only that we are revealed by what we do.

As for free will, see James 4:13. It is plain that we think we run our lives as we wish but it is only God who allows our lives to continue. And without God we couldn’t do anything good. So how can we do good works apart from the grace that God gives to us?

 

[PRmerger]

As Luther said, "We are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone.

Could you please cite a source for this? (Primary source, please, not another website which says, “Luther said ‘we are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone’.”)

 

[PRmerger]

Just remember, no one owes an answer to any question on this board.

Well, yes and no.

It’s true that there is no absolute moral imperative that we must answer any question posed.

But in the interest of thoughtful discourse it’s the right thing to do, when posed with a question on a forum that you’re participating in.

I’ve seen quite a few newbies banned because they come to the CAFs and have no interest in dialogue. They only post question after question and do not respond to any questions asked in return. They are banned rather quickly when it is shown that they are not here to engage in thoughtful debate.

 

[paul_c]

On to James…
We are supposed to be doers of the law not judges of the law. So is “works” in this context (chapter 2) a reflection that a believer is also a doer?
We can’t be just believers, because we are supposed to be good to our neighbors.
That much is obvious right? Trees are known by their fruits. So our works will be a reflection of our beliefs. That is just logical.

James chapter 3 says “we all stumble in many ways” …later on it says “can a fig tree produce olives”

3:13 “Who is wise and understanding among you? He should show his works by good conduct with wisdom’s gentleness…and the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.”

chapter 4:6 God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
4:11 Don’t criticize one another, …

4:13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will travel to such and such a city and spend a year there and do business and make a profit.” You don’t even know what tomorrow will bring - what your life will be!..Instead you should say, “If the Lord wills, we will live, and do this or that.”

So anyways, I do not see in James that we are saved by our works per say, only that we are revealed by what we do.

As for free will, see James 4:13. It is plain that we think we run our lives as we wish but it is only God who allows our lives to continue. And without God we couldn’t do anything good. So how can we do good works apart from the grace that God gives to us?

Lisa, we all have the choice to do right or wrong and we have a conscience to guide us, right?
When we do Good, we are cooperating with God. (so we aren’t doing it alone). When we sin, we are opposing God. Now, when we oppose God, there are ramifications. We fall from grace and will be condemned if we don’t reconcile to God through the sacraments. Being saved is a matter of desire to do the will of God, demonstrated by partaking of the sacraments. STAYING saved is following through and actually DOING the will of God.

So, we are not saved by our works, per se, but we are KEPT safe ( in the state of grace) by our works. Because if we don’t do these works, we will fall from grace and be condemned. At the same time, if we do works without being in the state of grace, it does us no good. you can’t earn you way to heaven. You must place yourself in God’s graces and then cooperate with those graces to enter into eternal life.

 

[paul_c]

Well, yes and no.

It’s true that there is no absolute moral imperative that we must answer any question posed.

But in the interest of thoughtful discourse it’s the right thing to do, when posed with a question on a forum that you’re participating in.

I’ve seen quite a few newbies banned because they come to the CAFs and have no interest in dialogue. They only post question after question and do not respond to any questions asked in return. They are banned rather quickly when it is shown that they are not here to engage in thoughtful debate.

Yes, they get banned because they are not here to learn about the faith but have other disruptive agendas. I think you understand my point – berating someone for not answering your questions is counterproductive in our mission, which is to educate and help people find the truth about the Church, Jesus, and salvation. I do agree that the people who benefit most from this forum are those that engage in active dialog, but we can’t force that from our end…

 

[karaleigh]

John Wesley. The Almost Christian, Sermon 2. Preached at St. Mary’s, Oxford, before the University, on July 25, 1741.
I’m not sure how many different congregations you’ve attended in your lifetime, as for me, many. The above link The Almost Christian tells the entire story. I mean this guy nails it! I had to sit and write a essay on the matter. Open your arms Jesus, I’m on my way home. Amen.

 

[Pitcharan]

…
As for free will, see James 4:13. It is plain that we think we run our lives as we wish but it is only God who allows our lives to continue. And without God we couldn’t do anything good. So how can we do good works apart from the grace that God gives to us?

True, we can’t do anything good on our own. But we are free to receive or reject the Grace freely offered by God.

If there was no free will then all humans would automatically accept God’s grace and be good robots.

However, it is NOT so; we have to freely make our choice and are given the longest rope of chances to learn from the consequences of what we choose

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, they get banned because they are not here to learn about the faith but have other disruptive agendas. I think you understand my point – berating someone for not answering your questions is counterproductive in our mission, which is to educate and help people find the truth about the Church, Jesus, and salvation. I do agree that the people who benefit most from this forum are those that engage in active dialog, but we can’t force that from our end…

 

[Lisa44]

Lisa, we all have the choice to do right or wrong and we have a conscience to guide us, right?
When we do Good, we are cooperating with God. (so we aren’t doing it alone). When we sin, we are opposing God. Now, when we oppose God, there are ramifications. We fall from grace and will be condemned if we don’t reconcile to God through the sacraments. Being saved is a matter of desire to do the will of God, demonstrated by partaking of the sacraments. STAYING saved is following through and actually DOING the will of God.

So, we are not saved by our works, per se, but we are KEPT safe ( in the state of grace) by our works. Because if we don’t do these works, we will fall from grace and be condemned. At the same time, if we do works without being in the state of grace, it does us no good. you can’t earn you way to heaven. You must place yourself in God’s graces and then cooperate with those graces to enter into eternal life.

According to James, we would say “if it is God’s will I will do good today…” knowing that we cannot accomplish any good by our own selves.

I wasn’t baptized as a baby, not until I was in my 30’s. So, how could I prior to baptism have done anything good? And, what could I do that is good now? Isn’t it God that gives me the grace to do something good? Do I really take credit for giving food to a beggar? Or is it God who deserves the credit?

Similarly, if I don’t go to Mass (mortal sin) am I then hell bound? Does Jesus just right us off if we make one false move?

Since we all stumble and fall then that would mean no one could even get to Heaven on their own works. It also means that no one can be saved unless God gives us salvation because we can’t earn it through our works.

 

[PRmerger]

Similarly, if I don’t go to Mass (mortal sin) am I then hell bound? Does Jesus just right us off if we make one false move?

No one knows if you’re hell bound, and if anyone tells you that, you can tell them to go where the sun don’t shine. (heh!)

However, to answer your question I say to you, “Strive to enter.”

Since we all stumble and fall then that would mean no one could even get to Heaven on their own works. It also means that no one can be saved unless God gives us salvation because we can’t earn it through our works.

'zactly. This is quite Catholic of you to say, Lisa!

 

[Lisa44]

True, we can’t do anything good on our own. But we are free to receive or reject the Grace freely offered by God.

If there was no free will then all humans would automatically accept God’s grace and be good robots.

However, it is NOT so; we have to freely make our choice and are given the longest rope of chances to learn from the consequences of what we choose

I’m not clear on how we reject the grace of God?

 

[paul_c]

According to James, we would say “if it is God’s will I will do good today…” knowing that we cannot accomplish any good by our own selves.

I just explained that when we do good, we are cooperating with God’s grace, hence we do not do it on our own

I wasn’t baptized as a baby, not until I was in my 30’s. So, how could I prior to baptism have done anything good? And, what could I do that is good now? Isn’t it God that gives me the grace to do something good? Do I really take credit for giving food to a beggar? Or is it God who deserves the credit?

Surely, you realize that God calls to everyone, baptized and non=baptized alike to do good. We all have consciences. St. Paul, in Romans,refers to this as the natural law. And yes, when you cooperate with God and do good works, there is merit in that, just as there is demerit in chosing the opposite path. Just remember, that you aren’t doing it alone.

Similarly, if I don’t go to Mass (mortal sin) am I then hell bound? Does Jesus just right us off if we make one false move?

Your ID says you are Catholic. Surely you recognize that as long as you live, you can get back in the state of grace through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession).

Since we all stumble and fall then that would mean no one could even get to Heaven on their own works. It also means that no one can be saved unless God gives us salvation because we can’t earn it through our works.

Lisa,
This is how it works:

1. God calls to all men to do his will. Those that answer that call are baptized. In baptism, you are born again, being freed of all prior sin , given the grace to do good works and made a member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. But it is a covential relationship. To stay in the state of grace, you must do God’s will, which means loving God and neighbor and avoiding mortal sin.
2. If you fall from grace through mortal sin, you will be condemned to hell, unless you reconcile to him sacramentally through the sacrament of reconciliation. By God’s mercy, he will forgive us as often as we are willing to repent.
3. If you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven. However, if you still have a tendency to sin, you will be purged of that tendency in purgatory before enterin heaven. If you die outside the state of grace, you will be condemned to hell.

The net of this, is going to heaven is ultimately a choice to get into and stay in the state of grace. If we are not willing to do this, than we are condemned.

 

[fhansen]

As for free will, see James 4:13. It is plain that we think we run our lives as we wish but it is only God who allows our lives to continue. And without God we couldn’t do anything good. So how can we do good works apart from the grace that God gives to us?

We can’t, but that grace is never irresistible-we don’t have to go along with His plan-therefore, our wills are involved. We can keep trying to run our lives as we wish, or we can choose to do the will of God.

 

[Pitcharan]

I’m not clear on how we reject the grace of God?

Whenever we freely choose evil over good, we reject the grace of God:
Eg. (i) The Levite and Priest who did nothing for the injured traveller who was later nursed by the Good Samaritan.
(ii) The rich man who was unmoved by the plight of Lazurus the beggar
(iii) The countless occasions when we succumbed to a sinful urge after overruling our concience