Once Saved Always Saved?

[PRmerger]

We can’t, but that grace is never irresistible-we don’t have to go along with His plan-therefore, our wills are involved. We can keep trying to run our lives as we wish, or we can choose to do the will of God.

Yes. Grace is always sufficient; it is just not always efficacious.

 

[Lisa44]

I just explained that when we do good, we are cooperating with God’s grace, hence we do not do it on our own

Surely, you realize that God calls to everyone, baptized and non=baptized alike to do good. We all have consciences. St. Paul, in Romans,refers to this as the natural law. And yes, when you cooperate with God and do good works, there is merit in that, just as there is demerit in chosing the opposite path. Just remember, that you aren’t doing it alone.

Your ID says you are Catholic. Surely you recognize that as long as you live, you can get back in the state of grace through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession).

Lisa,
This is how it works:

1. God calls to all men to do his will. Those that answer that call are baptized. In baptism, you are born again, being freed of all prior sin , given the grace to do good works and made a member of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. But it is a covential relationship. To stay in the state of grace, you must do God’s will, which means loving God and neighbor and avoiding mortal sin.
2. If you fall from grace through mortal sin, you will be condemned to hell, unless you reconcile to him sacramentally through the sacrament of reconciliation. By God’s mercy, he will forgive us as often as we are willing to repent.
3. If you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven. However, if you still have a tendency to sin, you will be purged of that tendency in purgatory before enterin heaven. If you die outside the state of grace, you will be condemned to hell.

The net of this, is going to heaven is ultimately a choice to get into and stay in the state of grace. If we are not willing to do this, than we are condemned.

Yes but I doubt that if I die before going to confession I am going to go to hell for missing Mass. It seems really hard to believe to be perfectly honest. And the fact that I don’t totally believe that makes me a heretic. That is what is so troubling. It seems like a Catholic cannot think outside the box. If they don’t do what the church teaches they are either a. going to hell, or b. a heretic and outside the church and going to hell.

You all accuse me of calling people “robots” for not really believing in free will, but who is the robot? If I am not free to think for myself then what is the point of this “free will”?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes but I doubt that if I die before going to confession I am going to go to hell for missing Mass. It seems really hard to believe to be perfectly honest. And the fact that I don’t totally believe that makes me a heretic. That is what is so troubling.

I often hear Catholics say this: * God wouldn’t <fill in the blank*>, even though the Church says He would. I know that God wouldn’t do that because God loves me.
*
*insert: send me to hell for missing Mass

I find this position curious because it’s the same Church that tells that Catholic that God loves her that *also *tells that Catholic that missing Mass is a mortal sin, and that if you die with mortal sin on your soul you condemn yourself to hell.

That is, the ONLY way that this rhetorical Catholic knows that God loves her is because, well, the the Church told her that God said this.

And this same Church is telling her something else, something that she doesn’t particularly like to hear, so now she’s going to say the Church is wrong here.

That sounds quite conspicuously like creating a god in one’s image.

Rather, what we must do as human beings is conform ourselves to God’s image. If He said it (i.e. God loves you! and Missing Mass is a mortal sin!), we must obey. To pick and choose is to create a false god–one that appears to mimic the Almighty Self, rather than the One True God.

IOW: it stands to reason that if the God this rhetorical Catholic has conjured up in her own mind does not at least demand some things that she really doesn’t want to do, then this rhetorical Catholic is making up her own little god.

 

[Anthony_V]

We know where God is-- the sacramental economy-- but we don’t know where he isn’t. Strictly speaking, if you die in a state of mortal sin, you will go to hell. But we don’t know what ways We are interceded for at particular judgement, or right before our death.

 

[PRmerger]

It seems like a Catholic cannot think outside the box.

Well, one can 'think outside the box" of Truth, and all that will do is kill you.

For example, in a rather mundane example: I can “think outside the box” and decide I’m going to spell things my own way when I post here.

Aieri gei goougeio eihtosthe. Teh seiglel tjhie gio’ tbj goll onmnp!!!

Now, that’s to my detriment that now no one can understand my arguments that I’m presenting.

But, hey, I’ve been “thinking outside the box” so it’s all good, eh?

And another more mortal example: I can “think outside the box” and decide that I’m going to dismiss the theory of gravity. I’m going to walk outside that second story window.

Oops!

You all accuse me of calling people “robots” for not really believing in free will, but who is the robot? If I am not free to think for myself then what is the point of this “free will”?

You have free will to think for yourself, but if you want to see things as they really are and make an informed decision, you ought to consider the truths being presented to you by God.

 

[Sig]

Exactly! This is very Catholic of you to say, Sig!

But you don’t stop at that, you go beyond it and say that your works save you, right?

Did he have a verse in Scripture from whence he concluded this?

I don’t know.

Only in the same way that Scripture is “contradictory” when it says that Jesus is a man, and that Jesus is God.

Scripture is not contradictory in any way.

Have you ever had discussions with JWs on this? Do they not claim that our understanding of the Incarnation contradicts Scripture?

Yes, and Catholics say that my understanding of scripture contradicts their understanding of scripture. Is there a point you’re getting at with that question?

So what church discerns the correct interpretation to 1 Peter 3:21?

The leadership of the church I attend is the leadership to whom I submit. Just as with you.

 

[Sig]

One more time (at least) – the NT consists of 27 of the Church’s own writings. And you are telling us what they mean? Absurd.

Yes, and the EU constitution was written by Europeans, and non-Europeans can tell you what the European constitution means.

And the same with mortgages, and loan agreements. Those who didn’t write the thing are able to tell you what the thing means because they understand language.

 

[Sig]

So IOW, if faith isn’t accompanied by works we can’t be saved.

That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is faith, accompanied by works, is an indication of a saving faith.

Isn’t it rather arbitrary to redefine faith as being inclusive of works rather than keep them separate and recognize both our needed.

I’m not separating anything. Saving faith produces good works. They are the fruits of the faith.

And if works are wrong, what kind of works does Luther refer to anyway?

I’ve never said works are wrong, and neither has Luther that I’m aware of, but both myself and Luther have stated what Paul says regarding salvation: it is by grace, through faith, not out of us, and not of works.

Paul doesn’t say works are bad, just that they can’t save.

Not if you understand scripture.

That’s a weak and inconsistent assertion: If only you understood scripture, you’d understand my point…

Which church?

Certainly mine, and those that are like-minded.

Everyone claims to be guided by the Spirit, no matter how much they vary in beliefs.

Even you.

 

[Sig]

On to James…

So anyways, I do not see in James that we are saved by our works per say, only that we are revealed by what we do.

I agree.

As for free will, see James 4:13. It is plain that we think we run our lives as we wish but it is only God who allows our lives to continue. And without God we couldn’t do anything good. So how can we do good works apart from the grace that God gives to us?

We can’t.

 

[Sig]

Could you please cite a source for this? (Primary source, please, not another website which says, “Luther said ‘we are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone’.”)

I don’t have a primary source for that.

 

[PRmerger]

But you don’t stop at that, you go beyond it and say that your works save you, right?

Well, just like in discussions with JWs if they point to the verse (whatever it is) that says, “Do you believe this?” I will give a hearty amen to that! But I just don’t ONLY believe that particular verse.

Catholics take the entirety of God’s Word and understand it in light of the faith presented to us by the Apostles.

So you are like the JWs, in this sense, in that you take one verse and say, “Don’t you believe this?” to which I reply, “I give a hearty amen! to that! But I just don’t ONLY believe that.”

I don’t know.

I do. Luther doesn’t have a verse that supports that paradigm. It is a man-made tradition.

Scripture is not contradictory in any way.

Very Catholic of you to say!

Yes, and Catholics say that my understanding of scripture contradicts their understanding of scripture. Is there a point you’re getting at with that question?

Yes. That Scripture alone does not suffice. We need Tradition and the authority of the Church. (But, thanks be to God, you’ve already acknowledged this.)

The leadership of the church I attend is the leadership to whom I submit. Just as with you.

Ah. I see. Does your leadership claim to be infallible?

(Rhetorical question here. Only posited to make you go )

 

[PRmerger]

The leadership of the church I attend is the leadership to whom I submit. Just as with you.

Incidentally, if the leadership of your church claims to be fallible (which I am sure it does!) then, by definition, it’s going to be wrong at some point on whatever judgement they make, whatever doctrines they declare, whatever things they attempt to bind/loose.

Going. to. be. wrong.

Fallible.

And you’ve already indicated that my Church leadership is infallible*, at least in discerning the canon of Scripture…so, de minimis I am following a the leadership of a Church that has been given the charism of infallibility.

(*unless you want to make a claim that the Church erred in including, say, Revelation in the bible and excluding, say, the Gospel of Thomas? Or if they erred in some way, could you please advise what books you think were left out that need to be included as Sacred Scripture or what books ought to be omitted in your estimation?)

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t have a primary source for that.

Okay.

 

[Sig]

Well, just like in discussions with JWs if they point to the verse (whatever it is) that says, “Do you believe this?” I will give a hearty amen to that! But I just don’t ONLY believe that particular verse.

Catholics take the entirety of God’s Word and understand it in light of the faith presented to us by the Apostles.

So you are like the JWs, in this sense, in that you take one verse and say, “Don’t you believe this?” to which I reply, "I give a hearty amen! to that! But I just don’t ONLY believe that.

You’re making silly, uneducated charges PR. I don’t just believe one verse.

Nevertheless, if you’d care to prove that I only believe one verse, I’ll admit I’m wrong.

I do. Luther doesn’t have a verse that supports that paradigm. It is a man-made tradition.

I love protestant tradition.

Very Catholic of you to say!

I belong to the catholic church.

Ah. I see. Does your leadership claim to be infallible?

(Rhetorical question here. Only posited to make you go )

Absolutely not!

No one is infallible.

 

[Sig]

Incidentally, if the leadership of your church claims to be fallible (which I am sure it does!) then, by definition, it’s going to be wrong at some point on whatever judgement they make, whatever doctrines they declare, whatever things they attempt to bind/loose.

Going. to. be. wrong.

Fallible.

And you’ve already indicated that my Church leadership is infallible*, at least in discerning the canon of Scripture…so, de minimis I am following a the leadership of a Church that has been given the charism of infallibility.

(*unless you want to make a claim that the Church erred in including, say, Revelation in the bible and excluding, say, the Gospel of Thomas? Or if they erred in some way, could you please advise what books you think were left out that need to be included as Sacred Scripture or what books ought to be omitted in your estimation?)

I’ve never indicated your church is infallible, PR.

But I do claim that you are. Do you know what that means?
(Rhetorical question here. Only posited to make you go )

 

[Sig]

Okay.

Okay.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re making silly, uneducated charges PR. I don’t just believe one verse.

Okay. So what verses do you believe regarding how we are saved?

It sounds like you just like the Ephesians one.

What other verses do you believe tells us how we are saved?

 

[PRmerger]

I love protestant tradition.

I belong to the catholic church.

Indeed, you do. If you were baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula you certainly are my brother in Christ!

No one is infallible.

Really? Can you tell us where Matthew erred in his Gospel? Or John? Or Paul? Or David?

 

[PRmerger]

But I do claim that you are. Do you know what that means?
(Rhetorical question here. Only posited to make you go )

Actually, that didn’t me me go
Rather, it made me go “Huh?”

 

[Sig]

Okay. So what verses do you believe regarding how we are saved?

It sounds like you just like the Ephesians one.

What other verses do you believe tells us how we are saved?

There are many. To begin with, all of Romans 4.