Once Saved Always Saved?

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shocktrooper

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Is this a plausible argument against those that believe in “once saved, always saved”…

Since those that usually believe in “OSAS” claim that one who was once saved was not really saved if that person leads a life of debauchery or evil; then does this position ultimately boil down to them not believing that God’s grace is sufficient and that God’s grace is not powerful enough to overcome the state of sin they were in when they were saved (but not really)?

As Catholics we believe that we are saved at baptism and then move in and out of God’s grace due to our freewill to reject Him by saying “yes” to sin. Thus we are saved, lost, saved and lost and hopefully conclude our lives in a state of grace and be saved. The “OSAS” crowd seems to believe that if you were really saved, then you are placed into the grace of God and unable to move outside of it.

It just seems to me that this would deny the power that God has over our sin, since they conclude that God’s Sacrament of Baptism is unable to move us back into His grace and “saving” us.

Any thoughts?

Pax Christi.
 
What do these people make of Paul’s own statement in Phil 2:12?
[BIBLEDRB]Phil 2:12[/BIBLEDRB]
He seems to be implying that we still do not know whether we are saved or not, but must strive to live the Gospel.

We not only affirm God’s power over sin, but the continuing mercy of forgiveness. If your own child falls into disgrace, you forgive them when they ask. Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother not seven, but 77 times (Matt 18:22). Will God forgive us only once then?

We also affirm our free will, and the need to bear the consequences of our choices. If we turn from virtue to sin, and die, it is because of our sin. (Ezek 33) A person in grace can always turn to sin.

However, it does not work the other way around. Once we have turned to sin and fallen, we cannot get up without God’s grace. Sin takes away our free will; it’s only God’s grace that restores it.

I think they fail to understand–or refuse to accept–the whole idea of Sacraments as means by which God acts to save us; they insist on just one thing: accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and savior. Frankly, I have a hard time seeing this as not as magical as they claim our baptism or other sacraments are.

They also put a lot into Paul’s statement in Rom 8:39, that “nothing” in all creation “can take us away from the love of God”–but does that include salvation as a part of God’s love? Does it deny that we can reject God’s love? We Catholics would say not: even if no outside force can tear us out of God’s love, our own free will can deny God–and if we persist, then God will accept our choice.
 
Many of those who believe in OSAS also believe that the saved are elected by God to be saved from the beginning of creation. Therefore, if someone falls away and begins to sin again, they’ll say that the person isn’t numbered among the elect- they never were saved. It’s not up to us in this case-our wills aren’t involved at all-one’s salvation is decided beforehand, totally according to the will of God. My objection is that, even if this were true, it’s merely an academic point since no one can know with 100% certainty just who the elect are, or just who will persevere until the end and who won’t. They, themselves may end up in sin later in life.

Others believe that it doesn’t matter. They’re already convinced they’re saved and no amount of sin could ever destroy that state; they stand sinless before God, based on the merits of Christ, strictly because they believe.
 
fhansen said:
Many of those who believe in OSAS also believe that the saved are elected by God to be saved from the beginning of creation. Therefore, if someone falls away and begins to sin again, they’ll say that the person isn’t numbered among the elect- they never were saved. It’s not up to us in this case-our wills aren’t involved at all-one’s salvation is decided beforehand, totally according to the will of God. My objection is that, even if this were true, it’s merely an academic point since no one can know with 100% certainty just who the elect are, or just who will persevere until the end and who won’t. [underline added] They, themselves may end up in sin later in life.

Others believe that it doesn’t matter. They’re already convinced they’re saved and no amount of sin could ever destroy that state; they stand sinless before God, based on the merits of Christ, strictly because they believe.
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That’s an important point (underlined); it means that they actually have no greater assurance of salvation than Catholics–and their position is actually open to much more pride, complacency, and even self-deception. I just never pushed to that position and its logical consequences before this. Thanks!
 
bmonk said:
That’s an important point (underlined); it means that they actually have no greater assurance of salvation than Catholics–and their position is actually open to much more pride, complacency, and even self-deception. I just never pushed to that position and its logical consequences before this. Thanks!
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You beat me to it – well said. As my Catholic father-in-law used to say when debating me, back when I was an evangelical Protestant, “You don’t know until you die, and the elevator either goes up or down.” Now the OSAS-ers are saying, “It doesn’t matter what you’ve done all your life; you don’t really know if you’re one of the elect until you die and the elevator either goes up or down.”

That said, we Catholics do need to pay attention to those passages in Scripture that talk about having assurance of salvation.
 
DaveBj said:
You don’t know until you die, and the elevator either goes up or down.
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That’s not what the Holy Bible says.

John 5:24

Romans 10:13

Although I would recommend reading both books completely. ( don’t like picking out verses)
 
fhansen said:
Many of those who believe in OSAS also believe that the saved are elected by God to be saved from the beginning of creation.
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Wow, you’re bringing some calvinism and arminianism out? 🙂 That’s a fun discussion to have. 👍
 
Calgar said:
That’s not what the Holy Bible says.

John 5:24

Romans 10:13

Although I would recommend reading both books completely. ( don’t like picking out verses)
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Sure, but I’ve known plenty who’ve seriously fallen away who claimed those verses for themselves prior to their fall.
 
Calgar said:
That’s not what the Holy Bible says.

John 5:24

Romans 10:13

Although I would recommend reading both books completely. ( don’t like picking out verses)
Click to expand...
John 5:24
Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

This is speaking of our condition at death, not our journey of moving in and out of God’s grace. Since we know not the time of our death, we must always “heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me”.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

Calgar, keep in mind that though God does not condemn anyone to hell, many will choose to go there even after they have come to “heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me”. In the confessional, we call upon the name of Christ for absolution, but that does not mean I am preserved from all sin from that moment on.

Pax Christi.
 
Calgar said:
That’s not what the Holy Bible says.

John 5:24

Romans 10:13

Although I would recommend reading both books completely. ( don’t like picking out verses)
Click to expand...
Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” That cetainly is true in the case of the thief who was dieing next to Christ. But he was in the throws of dieing when he called out to Jesus, and did die within an hour or so of making that call to Him. I don’t see this passage as a gurantee for someone who makes that statement 40 years before they die, as being a once for all statement regardless of how one lives their life.

*Jn 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears *my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
That’s a nice summary statement. Belief is not some intellectual exercise. It’s putting into practice all that you’ve heard from Him with obedience to all the conditions and requirements He gave. Otherwise “believes” is a dead word void of true biblical context and meaning.
 
shocktrooper said:
John 5:24
Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

This is speaking of our condition at death, not our journey of moving in and out of God’s grace. Since we know not the time of our death, we must always “heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me”.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

Calgar, keep in mind that though God does not condemn anyone to hell, many will choose to go there even after they have come to “heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me”. In the confessional, we call upon the name of Christ for absolution, but that does not mean I am preserved from all sin from that moment on.

Pax Christi.
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Right, and Jesus also gave us the Parable of the Ten Virgins, the Parable of the Talents, and the discourse on the Sheep and Goats, Matt 25:31-46. Not to mention all the other passages throughout the NT admonishing believers to persevere, do the right thing, be perfect, be holy, continue to abide in the Spirit, refrain from sin, feed the poor, clothe the naked, let ones lamp shine, with dire consequences for those who don’t. Why would they need to do that if a one-time, faith alone event is sufficient?
 
fhansen said:
Right, and Jesus also gave us the Parable of the Ten Virgins, the Parable of the Talents, and the discourse on the Sheep and Goats, Matt 25:31-46. Not to mention all the other passages throughout the NT admonishing believers to persevere, do the right thing, be perfect, be holy, continue to abide in the Spirit, refrain from sin, feed the poor, clothe the naked, let ones lamp shine, with dire consequences for those who don’t. Why would they need to do that if a one-time, faith alone event is sufficient?
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Amen! I agree.

God bless.
 
One of the easiest (always better) ways of disputing the OSAS dispute, is the fact that most OSAS believers believe we are saved by faith alone.

However, I find it interesting that the Biblical definition of Faith is:

1Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not…Hebrews 11:1…

How does one maintain the hope of things that appear not…when they have jumped the horse directly into the cart, by removing “hope”???
 
fhansen said:
Right, and Jesus also gave us the Parable of the Ten Virgins, the Parable of the Talents, and the discourse on the Sheep and Goats, Matt 25:31-46. Not to mention all the other passages throughout the NT admonishing believers to persevere, do the right thing, be perfect, be holy, continue to abide in the Spirit, refrain from sin, feed the poor, clothe the naked, let ones lamp shine, with dire consequences for those who don’t. Why would they need to do that if a one-time, faith alone event is sufficient?
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Is this thread about works vs faith alone? I must have misread the op. 🙂

I agree with you. It breaks my heart to see pew warmers.
 
fhansen said:
Sure, but I’ve known plenty who’ve seriously fallen away who claimed those verses for themselves prior to their fall.
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And I’ve known plenty who claimed the entire Bible prior to falling away. What’s your point? That you can dismiss the verses because you know a non-believer who quoted them?
 
shocktrooper said:
John 5:24

that does not mean I am preserved from all sin from that moment on.

Pax Christi.
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If that’s the argument then I’ve misread this thread. I don’t know any Christians who believe that.

I certainly don’t. OSAS doesn’t mean you never sin again, or that you don’t need to repent. We are human after all (at leas I am).
 
Calgar said:
And I’ve known plenty who claimed the entire Bible prior to falling away. What’s your point? That you can dismiss the verses because you know a non-believer who quoted them?
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The point is that they thought they were just as firm a believer as you do now.
 
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