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fhansen
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But you’d agree that we can’t know for certain the eternal destiny of others who’ve claimed to go with what they say. The point is that the wild card is us, not them. We can pass from death to life, but also back to death again. We can’t know who will persevere to the end and who won’t, which is why scripture continuously admonishes genuine believers to keep oil in their lamps, invest their talents, do the right thing, be vigilant, persevere, clothe the naked, feed, the poor, etc, all in addition to merely believing.
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Sig
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You haven’t proven that God wills everyone to be saved, but have merely asserted it.
Where does the passage describe that as mortal sin? Which verse, specifically?
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Sig
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You’re using the pronoun “we” very freely, and again, Jesus and the apostle John say I can know.
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Sig
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Yes.
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Sig
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Hopefully you’ll stop using “we” in that way.We finally agree on something. Halleluiah!
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Sig
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If you are correct, and that verse really means God has willed all me to be saved, then all men will be saved.
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Cat_Herder
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But there is a hell. And so we are back to the same issue. Why is there a hell? Either God wills the salvation of all or He does not. He clearly does. But at the same time, God is Love. Taking away someone’s free will is essentially the opposite of love. By taking God’s Love out of the Scriptures in order to win an argument you have missed the whole point of Christianity.
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Calgar
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catechism 600, there are more, but I don’t know what all you’re looking for.
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Cat_Herder
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He’s looking for Calvinism in the Catechism.catechism 600, there are more, but I don’t know what all you’re looking for.
CCC 600:
To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
That’s not Calvinism. That’s humans being given the choice whether to avail themselves of God’s grace.
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Sig
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We’re not back to the same issue. You are. I have no issue with what Paul tells Timothy, and the fact there is a hell.
Again, if what you say about that verse is correct: God wills all men to be saved, then all men will be saved. It can be no other way.
Because God prepared hell for Satan and his, and apparently for those who refuse to believe (Mt 25:41).
If God actively wills the salvation of all, then all will be saved.
Scripture no where says that man’s will is free, but that is it is a SLAVE, either to sin, or to righteousness (Rom 6).
Please explain how slavery really means freedom?
That is a straw man. I have not the power to remove God’s love from anything.
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Cat_Herder
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Babies and children don’t believe. Do they go to hell?
The Bible says that He does; then, again, why is there a hell?
I am a bond-slave to Jesus Christ through His Mother Mary. My slavery actually makes me more free than I was before I consecrated myself. This is because true freedom can only be expressed in obedience to God.
It takes quite a bit of repentance and conversion to understand that the various maxims of the world such as “freedom” and “slavery” are all wrong. When you think of “slavery” you think of not being free to make choices. When many young people think of “freedom” they define it as doing whatever their friends want to do. So what the young people call “freedom” is really “slavery,” and all you have to do to see that is to ground one of them and watch them throw a temper tantrum over not being able to follow along with their peer group. They are so emotionally dependent on their peers that they are enslaved to them.
That is not the kind of “slavery” that Paul is referring to. To be a slave of God simply means to never deviate from the nature of God, which is Love. Disobedience to God is sin and sin takes away freedom. Thus to be truly free one must be a slave of God, and since that slavery is bondage to Love, one must choose to submit to it freely. Any attempt to obey God that is not grounded in Love results in the kind of vain “obedience” that the Pharisees of Christ’s time were notorious for.
In order to truly understand this you would have to become a slave yourself. And you should.
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Sig
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That’s a different discussion. Quit deflecting.
If God is actively willing the salvation of all men, then the only outcome will be that all men are saved.
Slavery and freedom are to words opposed to one another in meaning.
One cannot be a slave, and free at the same time. It’s a logical contradiction.
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Cat_Herder
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You are the one who brought it up.
That’s not what the Bible says. Read the last few chapters of Revelation.
If you think that is a logical contradiction I wonder what you think about this.
GOD IS IMMORTAL
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=9712
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Sig
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In which post #, please?
I know that’s not what the Bible says. It’s you who says that God is actively willing all men to be saved, and if you are right about that, then all men will be saved. It can be no other way.
So am I.
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Cat_Herder
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Here
For the last time:
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
That is what the Bible says. But the Bible also says:
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 20:11-15[/BIBLEDRB]
You cannot reconcile these Scriptures without admitting the existence of free will. You won’t do that; instead you blot out 1 Timothy 2:34.
And yet you are also mortal, just as God became. If that’s not a contradiction according to human logic I don’t know what is. And yet you put so much trust in your human logic, your traditions of men, over and above the Word of God.
[BIBLEDRB]Proverbs 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]
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