Once Saved Always Saved?

[FidesSpesCarita]

I thought you were looking for predestination. You want me to find the word calvinism in the ccc?

No thanks. Carry on.

Oh come on now, catherder clearly meant Calvinist thought/doctrines not the word.

Friend, slavery and freedom being opposites words is not a tradition, but a fact. Look up the words in any dictionary, or in any Greek Lexicon,or Romans 6.

Friend, you assert that men have “free will.” Therefore, the burden of proof is yours, and as of this time, you’ve failed to produce any proof for your assertion.

Perhaps it’s time to stop feeding the troll? There is none so blind as he who will not see. If sig is unwilling to have a reasoned discussion and wants to continue talking AT instead of WITH, what’s the point in continuing?

Apparently the bible doesn’t mean what it says all the time, man is not free to choose anything at all (since if we lack free will then we cannot even choose our favorite meal at a restaurant), God therefore creates souls for the explicit purpose of sending them to hell, etc. It is either Calvin reincarnated or a troll.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

The OSAS argument has always given me two real problems (…once you get past the heretical aspect of it! )

The only people who died that we know are in Heaven are: the ‘Good Thief’, Christ, Our Blessed Mother and the canonized saints. Now, I am a bit confused with Elijah … he did not die, and if someone says he is in Heaven - well, OK, after all, he does have to be some place … but, really, while I do not know where he is, I know he is not in Hell!) This is on one side of the ‘coin’.

The other side of the coin is the only ones we know that are in Hell are the Devil and the 1/3 of the former members of the Heavenly Host who chose very poorly and now are in eternal torment. We do not know of any human being in Hell. Everyone has a personal list of truly.

Speculating on the eternal where-abouts of any human not mentioned previously is just pure guess-work and subject on error from beginning to end. So,how can the OSAS crowd come up with any statement about so-and-so being damned.

Secondly, it appears that once they make a ‘speculative pronouncement’ on the eternal damnation of a fellow human being - who they once considered saved - they have to back-track and say that they were not really saved to beging with!

I think the only one who not only knew he was ‘saved’ and would continue to be ‘saved’ is John Calvin. He obviously had his doubts about everyone else but himself! My guess is that if this prospect is not depressing - then nothing is!

God bless

Many of those who believe in OSAS also believe that the saved are elected by God to be saved from the beginning of creation. Therefore, if someone falls away and begins to sin again, they’ll say that the person isn’t numbered among the elect- they never were saved. It’s not up to us in this case-our wills aren’t involved at all-one’s salvation is decided beforehand, totally according to the will of God. My objection is that, even if this were true, it’s merely an academic point since no one can know with 100% certainty just who the elect are, or just who will persevere until the end and who won’t. They, themselves may end up in sin later in life.

Others believe that it doesn’t matter. They’re already convinced they’re saved and no amount of sin could ever destroy that state; they stand sinless before God, based on the merits of Christ, strictly because they believe.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sig,

Let me just address two points in your presentation.

There can be no doubt that God wills the salvation of all men - but, God’s Will can be effected by Man’s Free Will. Look at the story of Adam and Eve as recounted in Genesis 3. God created perfect human beings and gave them one commandment. Even though they were perfect, they could still choose. God then treats humanity differently from the angels who also had free will and chose poorly…and sends our Most Precious Lord to save us.

Unless the idea that God wills the salvaiton of all men to the concept that we must freely chose to cooperate with the Grace of God, an impossible situation is created. There are numerous NT references where Christ warns of eternal punishment for disobedience - the outer darkness with the weeping and gnashing of teeth, the worm that does not die, and being in the company of the damned fallen angels are pretty convincing statements. If God really does will the salvation of all men - and you stop right there - then how can Hell even exist?

You know, I think you are right - scripture does not say man has a free will. Of course to end it like that, the US Constitution does not say that there are $1, $5, $10, $20, $50 and $100 bills used as currency in the US. From Genesis on - God gives man choices and the record of poor choices fills the Bible - but, there are some sterling examples of really good choices that truly can give us encouagement.

Picture a convicted criminal appearling before a US criminal judge for sentencing. The judge asks the man if he has anything to say - and the man says, “Your Honor, I never had a free will so I am not resonsible for any bad acts. You are required to release me!” In my opinion, the judge will not allow this man to go free because the judge, like everyone in the Court knows that each of us has a free will (let’s let the insane and mentally deficient alone for the moment). Sin is the free choice of evil over God’s Law.

God bless

We’re not back to the same issue. You are. I have no issue with what Paul tells Timothy, and the fact there is a hell.

Again, if what you say about that verse is correct: God wills all men to be saved, then all men will be saved. It can be no other way.

Because God prepared hell for Satan and his, and apparently for those who refuse to believe (Mt 25:41).

If God actively wills the salvation of all, then all will be saved.

Scripture no where says that man’s will is free, but that is it is a SLAVE, either to sin, or to righteousness (Rom 6).

Please explain how slavery really means freedom?

That is a straw man. I have not the power to remove God’s love from anything.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sig,

You freely chose to resond to the previous post - and I freely chose to respond to yours.

Neither of us were forced to respond to the posts - and this is just an example of what we do every day as we look at reality, evaluate what we see and then make a decision.

Responding to the post is a morally neutral act - it is neither good or bad. We can use scripture and the words of the saints to make or clarify a point so as to charitably persuade a person and I think this would be moving a neutral act to a morally good act. Conversely, we can call each other terrible names, impune each other’s reputuation and get banned from CAF for our outrageous behavior. This would be taking a neutral act and making it bad. All of this lies within our ability to make choices. All of this shows that we have a free will that empowers our acts of choice.

God bless

Friend, you assert that men have “free will.” Therefore, the burden of proof is yours, and as of this time, you’ve failed to produce any proof for your assertion.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sig,

I was born with a right and left hand and this is a fact - not an assertion. Most people are born with two hands and this, too, is a fact, and not an assertion. To claim that you personally were born with a right and left hand is an assumption. From the preponderance of evidence, my assertion is that you have a right and left hand - and to prove this, I simply require that you hold up your upper appendages.

Facts, like both hands and the freedom to choose are all around us - if but we look.

Grace comes in as a free Gift of God that we must cooperate with (using one’s free will). As St. Augustine once said, 'We were born into this world without any cooperation on our part, but we will not be saved by God without our cooperation."

God bless

That’s an assertion.

If it’s a fact, then what’s the need for grace?

 

[Sig]

Hi, Sig,

Let me just address two points in your presentation.

There can be no doubt that God wills the salvation of all men - but, God’s Will can be effected by Man’s Free Will.

If God is actively willing the salvation of all men, then all men must be saved. And if man’s will is free, it has no need of grace. It’s free.

 

[Sig]

Hi, Sig,

I was born with a right and left hand and this is a fact - not an assertion. Most people are born with two hands and this, too, is a fact, and not an assertion. To claim that you personally were born with a right and left hand is an assumption. From the preponderance of evidence, my assertion is that you have a right and left hand - and to prove this, I simply require that you hold up your upper appendages.

Facts, like both hands and the freedom to choose are all around us - if but we look.

Grace comes in as a free Gift of God that we must cooperate with (using one’s free will). As St. Augustine once said, 'We were born into this world without any cooperation on our part, but we will not be saved by God without our cooperation."

God bless

A free will needs no grace. It’s free.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Paul says that unregenerate men are slaves of sin, and that regenerate men are slaves of righteousness (Rom 6). How is it you describe men as free? Is Paul wrong?

Where does one find the Biblical description of “mortal sin?”

16
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.l
17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. 1John5:16-17

Matthew

 

[Sig]

Facts, like both hands and the freedom to choose are all around us - if but we look.

Man is said to be either a slave of sin, or a slave of righteousness (Jn 8:34; Rom 6).

How is it you confuse slavery with freedom?

 

[Sig]

16
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.l
17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. 1John5:16-17

Matthew

And what sin, according to John, is that sin leading to death?

 

[fhansen]

If the will is free to love God, then the will doesn’t need grace because it’s free.

The will must be made free to love God, or else love is not possible. Once free, once rescued from the pit, we must refrain from falling back in, we must persevere, lest we perish. It’s up to us to cooperate with grace to not only remain free but to grow in sanctification/justification/love.

 

[fhansen]

I think the only one who not only knew he was ‘saved’ and would continue to be ‘saved’ is John Calvin. He obviously had his doubts about everyone else but himself! My guess is that if this prospect is not depressing - then nothing is!

It would be extremely depressing to believe God is so dull and unjust as to predetermine who will go to heaven and who will go to hell before the creation of the world and this based on nothing but His sovereign will, nothing at all to do with justice or some standard of distinguishing between the righteous and unrighteous based on their actions/will. Jacobus Arminius, educated as a Calvinist, recognized the error in all this and Arminianism was thus born, a return to concepts already existing in the CC.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

And what sin, according to John, is that sin leading to death?

It’s called mortal sin sig! Sin that bring you death/Hell!

Matthew

 

[Church_Militant]

That’s too bad. Jesus, and the apostle John say one can know.

I would posit that Matthew 25:31-46 suggest differently. There are degrees of knowing. St. Paul even says so. “Seeing in a glass darkly…”

That’s a different discussion. Quit deflecting.

That’s not deflecting at all. It’s fact that is relevant. Resolve/explain how your doctrinal theory applies to them.

If God is actively willing the salvation of all men, then the only outcome will be that all men are saved.

Yet that is patently not the case and so then your doctrinal theory must be in error.

Slavery and freedom are to words opposed to one another in meaning.

One cannot be a slave, and free at the same time. It’s a logical contradiction.

Man is said to be either a slave of sin, or a slave of righteousness (Jn 8:34; Rom 6).

How is it you confuse slavery with freedom?

Really? You cite St. Paul as a source for your belief and then refute him when he says things like, “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,” (Romans 1:1) Yet the Greek word there is “doulos” and properly translates as “Bondslave”.

So…apparently you are wrong about this according to the very scriptures that you will quickly assert to us is your ultimate and final authority. Resolve?

 

[Lisa44]

That’s too bad. Jesus, and the apostle John say one can know.

Hi Sig, would you give me the bible references for this? If you already gave it and I missed it I apologize.

But you’d agree that we can’t know for certain the eternal destiny of others who’ve claimed to go with what they say. The point is that the wild card is us, not them. We can pass from death to life, but also back to death again. We can’t know who will persevere to the end and who won’t, which is why scripture continuously admonishes genuine believers to keep oil in their lamps, invest their talents, do the right thing, be vigilant, persevere, clothe the naked, feed, the poor, etc, all in addition to merely believing.

Question - If what you say is true, and it is impossible to know who is saved, if anyone is saved, then how is faith possible? In that scenario, wouldn’t all we be left with is DOUBT?

Friend, you assert that men have “free will.” Therefore, the burden of proof is yours, and as of this time, you’ve failed to produce any proof for your assertion.

I would also like to see the biblical proofs or references for free will.

That’s an assertion.

If it’s a fact, then what’s the need for grace?

This is true logically speaking. If man has free will to choose God or reject God, then grace would be redundant. In effect, God already gave you grace when he gave you the power to reject or accept Him. If in fact, God gave us free will, which hasn’t been adequately demonstrated to remove doubt from my mind.

 

[Sig]

It’s called mortal sin sig! Sin that bring you death/Hell!

Matthew

And what is this sin according to John, and where in that passage does John say what kind of death that sin brings, either physical, or eternal?

 

[Cat_Herder]

A free will needs no grace. It’s free.

But you can’t “will” yourself into heaven any more than you can “will” yourself a millionaire. Just having a free will doesn’t get you anywhere or anything. Someone has to give you the million dollars or the grace that permits you entrance to heaven.

In case you didn’t read:

I think Sig realizes that. But he/she thinks that the will cannot be free to choose God, because if the will was free to choose God, then the will would be free to bridge the infinitely large chasm between God and man. That’s a false premise.

Suppose that the chasm between God and man is bridged by a rope, i.e. grace. Sig is insisting that God throws the rope. We agree. But Sig further believes that God lassos certain men with the rope and drags them across the chasm without any (name removed by moderator)ut from man, i.e. no free will. This is a heresy, namely Calvinism.

Actually, God throws the rope to every human being and allows each man and woman to catch it and hold on to it if the person desires to do so. The fact that we are able to catch the rope through human action does not mean that there is no need for the rope at all. Pelagianism is the heresy that the rope does not exist.

 

[Sig]

I would posit that Matthew 25:31-46 suggest differently.

You can posit whatever you like, that doesn’t mean you’re right.

Are you denying that the apostle John says one can know one is saved?

 

[Sig]

But you can’t “will” yourself into heaven any more than you can “will” yourself a millionaire.

A free will doesn’t need grace. It’s free.

 

[Cat_Herder]

It would be extremely depressing to believe God is so dull and unjust as to predetermine who will go to heaven and who will go to hell before the creation of the world and this based on nothing but His sovereign will, nothing at all to do with justice or some standard of distinguishing between the righteous and unrighteous based on their actions/will. Jacobus Arminius, educated as a Calvinist, recognized the error in all this and Arminianism was thus born, a return to concepts already existing in the CC.

Indeed. A God Who throws people into hell for no reason is not a God Who is Love. The God of the Bible is Love.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 4:8[/BIBLEDRB]