Once Saved Always Saved?

[PRmerger]

No. Little babies haven’t sinned, nor have young children below the age of reason. For that matter, neither has Jesus, or His Mother.

As I pointed out, Enoch and Elijah were raptured. How can that be, if the wages of sin is death? Does that mean that they too were without sin?

And Enoch and Elijah were righteous, no? And they sought after God? :yup:

 

[Sig]

I think he inadvertently responded to a post he did not intend to.

No, I told you I didn’t.

The great thing about this is that when you post CH’s stuff, if it’s outrageously off-base, and worthy of a reponse, I can respond. (Edited)
Thanks, PR.

 

[Farsight001]

Of course, of course.

Rom 3:23 is the specific verse I had in mind when I planted my tongue firmly in my cheek and remarked that Catholics don’t believe that “all” means “all.”

Thanks for the confirmation that I’m right in that. As usual.

Even Romans 3:23 doesn’t mean “all”. So you’re right AND shooting yourself in the foot at the same time. Look at the context. Paul is berating a specific group of people for being vain and foolish in the faith and telling THEM SPECIFICALLY that all OF THEM have sinned.

 

[Sig]

And Enoch and Elijah were righteous, no? And they sought after God? :yup:

C’mon PR. Enoch walked with God. Do you think that’s because Enoch said, “Hey God, let’s walk together?” Or because God chose Enoch (Rom 8:29ff)?

Eh?

And the same for Elijah who was a Jewish prophet. Jewish prophets were chosen by God, and not the other way around.

And as far as Enoch and Elijah not dying, that’s God perogative, and God tells us He took them up to heaven without death.

Think, PR…think…

 

[Sig]

Even Romans 3:23 doesn’t mean “all”. So you’re right AND shooting yourself in the foot at the same time. Look at the context. Paul is berating a specific group of people for being vain and foolish in the faith and telling THEM SPECIFICALLY that all OF THEM have sinned.

Oh really? Then he must also be telling only them that only they are justified by God’s grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (v24), at least if we follow you line of thinking, right?

Woe is the rest of us!

 

[fhansen]

So all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23)?

Sure, but that’s not how God intends to leave things. That’s why Jesus came-to take away our sins and reconcile us with God. Sin is what separates us from Him, after all. God didn’t make laws that were impossible for man to obey, blame him anyway for not obeying them and then kick him out of the garden, only to leave him in his sins later on by merely imputing righteousness to him as if nothing ever happened.

 

[Cat_Herder]

C’mon PR. Enoch walked with God. Do you think that’s because Enoch said, “Hey God, let’s walk together?” Or because God chose Enoch (Rom 8:29ff)?

Eh?

And the same for Elijah who was a Jewish prophet. Jewish prophets were chosen by God, and not the other way around.

And as far as Enoch and Elijah not dying, that’s God perogative, and God tells us He took them up to heaven without death.

So the grace that God gave to Enoch and Elijah, who did not know Jesus, is greater than the grace that God gives to those who do know Jesus?

(Edited)

 

[Sig]

Sure, but that’s not how God intends to leave things. That’s why Jesus came-to take away our sins and reconcile us with God. Sin is what separates us from Him, after all. God didn’t make laws that were impossible for man to obey, blame him anyway for not obeying them and then kick him out of the garden, only to leave him in his sins later on by merely imputing righteousness to him as if nothing ever happened.

Look, Mr.? Hansen, "by works of law shall no flesh be justified in God’s sight, for by the law comes the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20).

The law can’t save you because it was never intended to save you, or anyone. It was intended to show you that you are a sinner by your inability TO KEEP IT…

The law, "WAS our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR [LAW]… Gal 3:24-25.

How much clearer can Paul be?

 

[Sig]

So the grace that God gave to Enoch and Elijah, who did not know Jesus, is greater than the grace that God gives to those who do know Jesus?

What proof do you offer that God has no right to do whatever He pleases, and to grace whoever He pleases, in the degree He pleases to grace them (Ps 115:3; cf Ex 33:19b)?

 

[fhansen]

Look, Mr.? Hansen, "by works of law shall no flesh be justified in God’s sight, for by the law comes the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20).

The law can’t save you because it was never intended to save you, or anyone. It was intended to show you that you are a sinner by your inability TO KEEP IT…

The law, "WAS our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR [LAW]… Gal 3:24-25.

How much clearer can Paul be?

Look, Sig, of course the law can’t save us-only God can-by justifying us. Faith is the vehicle, the first response to grace, in getting us to the goal, which his why faith is the basis of our righteousness, because it’s faith in God and *His *righteousness rather than our own, based on the Law-a mere pretense at holiness. (Phil 3:9) God’s righteousness is exactly what Adam & Eve rejected in favor of their own. And God’s righteousness is what He seeks to restore in us so that we can walk with and see Him again-that’s our salvation.

 

[stewstew03]

Do you think that’s because Enoch said, “Hey God, let’s walk together?” Or because God chose Enoch (Rom 8:29ff)?

And the same for Elijah who was a Jewish prophet. Jewish prophets were chosen by God, and not the other way around.

Two questions: (1) Are you saying Enoch and Elijah lost their free will? (2) Are you saying that, in the case of believers who are not Jewish prophets chosen by God, that*** they initiate on their own merits a relationship with God?***

 

[Michael_Francis]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Kindly return to and remain on topic, “Once Saved Always Saved?”
Discuss that and not each other.
A number of posts have been deleted and others edited. Carry on…

 

[Sig]

Two questions: (1) Are you saying Enoch and Elijah lost their free will?

Enoch and Elijah’s wills are not free, but are in bondage to sin. God never says anything to the contrary regarding that.

And what I said is quite simple: God chose Enoch.

(2) Are you saying that, in the case of believers who are not Jewish prophets chosen by God, that*** they initiate on their own merits a relationship with God?***

I guess you haven’t been reading the thread, so, in a word, no.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

It is truly a marvel to me that the OSAS crowd not only has trouble keeping there heresies straight, but is unable to really stick with them without actually having to say, “Well, OK, you do need works, too!”

I think it is very appropriate that you mentioned St. John of the Cross in refuting the OSAS heresy. For those not familiar with this great saint, here is an interesting link: newadvent.org/cathen/08480a.htm

God bless

Yes, and without those works we aren’t saved. Jesus said we’ll be judged by those works, in fact, St John of the Cross put it more succinctly, spelling out the true path beyond which faith must travel:

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.

He had come to very close proximity with God. And this spells out that the Law must be fulfilled, to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor and ourselves, albeit fulfilled by grace.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Farsight001,

In looking at OSAS as an argument from the Protestant Revolt,

Maybe looking at the a little more of the context that gave us Romans would be helpful. It is really a major mistake to divorce the writer of any Epistle from the priary group that he intended this letter. Whie we can surely profit from these writings today, to ignore what was going on in the various churches is going to hinder plain understanding.

For me, the death knell of OSAS is found in Romans 2:25-29. The Jews thought they were saved once they were circumcised. Paul points out this delusion in the beginning of Chapter 2 - the Jews are guilty of every sin and their circumcision means nothing - especially when compared to the un-circumcised keeping the law! Here is the verse:

** 25 Circumcision, to be sure, has value if you observe the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised? 27Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law. 28One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh. 29Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God.
**

Needless to say, calling this Jewish version of OSAS (being circumcised is being saved) a false doctrine must have come as a major shock to the Jews! It was no less shocking to those who once claimed OSAS - like those who have swum the Tiber - and see it for what it is and for what Paul condemned in the Jews.

God bless

Even Romans 3:23 doesn’t mean “all”. So you’re right AND shooting yourself in the foot at the same time. Look at the context. Paul is berating a specific group of people for being vain and foolish in the faith and telling THEM SPECIFICALLY that all OF THEM have sinned.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Enoch and Elijah’s wills are not free, but are in bondage to sin. God never says anything to the contrary regarding that.

And what I said is quite simple: God chose Enoch.

I guess you haven’t been reading the thread, so, in a word, no.

So what does Jesus have to do with salvation, then? Enoch and Elijah did not know Him and yet they went straight to heaven without dying. So why do Christians die? Is God just arbitrarily choosing people to go to heaven without reference to whether they know His Son?

Or did Enoch and Elijah attain salvation by the Law?

 

[PRmerger]

C’mon PR. Enoch walked with God. Do you think that’s because Enoch said, “Hey God, let’s walk together?” Or because God chose Enoch (Rom 8:29ff)?

The Catholic position is that God chose Enoch. But, of course, Enoch said yes because he was seeking God in the first place.

And the same for Elijah who was a Jewish prophet. Jewish prophets were chosen by God, and not the other way around.

Were you under the misapprehension that Catholics believe that prophets aren’t chosen by God?

And as far as Enoch and Elijah not dying, that’s God perogative, and God tells us He took them up to heaven without death.

Think, PR…think…

Again, this is very Catholic of you to say.

(Even the thinking imperative you’ve given me. )

 

[Sig]

The Catholic position is that God chose Enoch. But, of course, Enoch said yes because he was seeking God in the first place.

Of course it is. Every Catholic I know says that several times a day.

Were you under the misapprehension that Catholics believe that prophets aren’t chosen by God?

One can never know. You are individuals.

Again, this is very Catholic of you to say.

(Even the thinking imperative you’ve given me. )

What do you expect? I’m a member of the catholic church.

 

[Sig]

So what does Jesus have to do with salvation, then?

He is my savior.

Enoch and Elijah did not know Him and yet they went straight to heaven without dying.

What proof do you offer that God has no right to do whatever He pleases, and to grace whoever He pleases, including bringing into His kingdom whomever He desires to bring into His kingdom, and at the time of His own choosing, and under the conditions of His own choosing (Ps 115:3)?

Don’t you claim that right for your own home? Letting in whomever you will, and keeping out whomever you will?

So why do Christians die?

They get old. Some get cancer. Some get run over by buses. Some are murdered. Some die peacefully in their sleep.

Is God just arbitrarily choosing people to go to heaven without reference to whether they know His Son?

What proof do you offer that God has no right to do whatever He pleases, including bringing into His kingdom whomever He desires to bring into His kingdom, and at the time of His own choosing, and under the conditions of His own choosing (Ps 115:3)?

Don’t you claim that right for your own home? Letting in whomever you will, and keeping out whomever you will?

Or did Enoch and Elijah attain salvation by the Law?

Salvation is by grace, through faith, in God (Eph 2:8; Romans 4). Always has been.

 

[Sig]

Look, Sig, of course the law can’t save us-only God can-by justifying us. Faith is the vehicle, the first response to grace, in getting us to the goal, which his why faith is the basis of our righteousness, because it’s faith in God and *His *righteousness rather than our own, based on the Law-a mere pretense at holiness. (Phil 3:9) God’s righteousness is exactly what Adam & Eve rejected in favor of their own. And God’s righteousness is what He seeks to restore in us so that we can walk with and see Him again-that’s our salvation.