Once Saved Always Saved?

[Sig]

fhansen:

So then they have to come up with strange ideas such as Gods "permissive will" vs His “secret will”, kind of like “saving faith”, as convenience demands. Not a god I could put much faith in.

Bump for Mr. Hansen. Mr. Hansen, did you miss this question?

"Do you believe God is the author of sin, or that God permits sin? Which one?"

 

[fhansen]

You misunderstand because you misread, again, Mr Hansen.

You’ll note in my post that I said nothing about “man saving himself.” For some reason, upon reading my post, that’s what you thought I was saying, but that’s not so.

What I said is what Jesus says, you have no ability on your own to come to God. You don’t, you won’t because YOU CAN’T.

You don’t have the power to do so, you don’t have the ability to do so (Jn 6:44), you’re not free to do so because your will isn’t free, but it is in bondage to sin (Jn 8:34; Rom 6, et. al.).

That’s why Paul confidently, and without blushing says,

"There is none righteous, no not one.
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God…" Rom 3:10ff.
Your will isn’t free. Thus its need for grace.

Sig, I never suggested you said that man can save himself. I was affirming the Catholic position that man cannot save himself but that God nonetheless elects to use man in his salvation. The misreading’s on your part, as usual.

 

[paul_c]

Your will isn’t free. If it were you’d be able to come to Christ apart from grace, but you can’t, because you don’t have the ability, the power, you don’t have the free will to do so Jn 6:44, but you desperately need grace.

But I give you a for trying

There are always some limitations on what we can do. So you can’t come to Jesus except by grace, but we believe he gives that grace to everyone. You have the freedom at that point to accept or decline it.

 

[fhansen]

Bump for Mr. Hansen. Mr. Hansen, did you miss this question?

"Do you believe God is the author of sin, or that God permits sin? Which one?"

As I’ve maintained before, God permits sin but is not it’s author.

 

[pablope]

pablope;8701360:

Hi there, concerning verse 23. The “they” is Israel who were cut off due to their unbelief.
They will be grafted back on if they do not persist in unbelief.
So what that means is that we can turn to the Lord and believe in him and if we do that, we will be grafted on to the olive tree.

Notice, you didn’t get cut off the tree for sinning. You didn’t get cut off the tree because you didn’t honor your parents, or because you coveted. You got cut off the tree for UNBELIEF.

Do you see?

Lisa,

Unbelief is a sin too. It is a blasphemy. When you start to unbelieve, after believing and hearing the word of God…that is turning your back to God and is a sin against God.

When Israel turned to unbelief…was that not a sin against God? What happened to them? Were they not punished? And they were only restored when they repented.

It is also what the CC teaches…sin against God causes a fall from the grace of God…a separation from God…and the sacrament of reconciliation restores that grace.

 

[pablope]

Well, good. Enjoy your conversation with yourself and your “knowledge” of Israel and Romans 11 because I cannot see any possibility of a meaningful conversation coming out of our exchange.

What I would suggest you do now, is to stand up and crow at how you’ve won this argument because sig won’t involve himself in a discussion with you.

Go ahead, make up anything you’d like pertaining to that. I promise I won’t say word against yours or tqualey’s claims.

Ciao baby :tiphat:

Well…whatever you say…because I deduce you cannot go around v13 of Rom11…

v13, where St. Paul says…I am talking to you Gentiles…so can you then explain how it is about Israel and not about the Gentiles…the new believers?

 

[Sig]

As I’ve maintained before, God permits sin but is not it’s author.

Great. That’s what’s known as God’s “permissive,” or “revealed” will.

Dt 29:29 says, "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all of the words of this law."

Do you believe that Scripture?

 

[Sig]

Sig, I never suggested you said that man can save himself. I was affirming the Catholic position that man cannot save himself but that God nonetheless elects to use man in his salvation. The misreading’s on your part, as usual.

Mr. Hansen, again you misread. I never said you suggested that man can save himself. Go back and re-read my post.

 

[Sig]

There are always some limitations on what we can do. So you can’t come to Jesus except by grace, but we believe he gives that grace to everyone. You have the freedom at that point to accept or decline it.

Do you know what Jesus says in John 6:44?

If you believe that Jesus gives that grace spoken of John 6:44 to every single person, then you must also believe that every single person will be saved.

That’s universalism. Since you’re such a knowledgeable Catholic, I’m left to conclude that the RCC teaches universalism with respect to salvation.

Hmmm. What will your response be?

 

[Sig]

Well…whatever you say…because I deduce you cannot go around v13 of Rom11…

You’re probably right, pablobe, and all of our exchange is recorded on a very few pages on this thread for posterity, and anyone interested in our exchange can go and read it for themselves and see what I said concerning the subject matter of Romans 11.

 

[JRRTFAN]

Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

I’ll leave the reading of it up to you. It used to be available online.

Oh, I have it, no problem. Just tell me the page and I’ll look it up.

 

[stewstew03]

If man’s will is free, then it has no use for, nor need of grace. It’s free.

We lost our free will?

 

[tqualey]

Hi Paul C,

Yours was post #910 … considering the increase in circular reasoning and now the repitition of one word “No, no, no,no…” like that is going to make a complete thought… that ‘radio silence’ you spoke about, just isn’t coming soon enough…

God bless

There are always some limitations on what we can do. So you can’t come to Jesus except by grace, but we believe he gives that grace to everyone. You have the freedom at that point to accept or decline it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pablope,

You know… I have noticed that, too. It seems like the closer we get to v13 of Romans 11 … the little light in the back of his eye just starts blinking wildly …

God bless

Well…whatever you say…because I deduce you cannot go around v13 of Rom11…

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

I have been tracking these posts for some time now, and without fear of contradiction, I can tell you that you have not made any misreadings on anything. This guy must have gone fishing … judging from the number of red herrings he’s been throwing out!

You know, in my opinion, it is sort of sad, the thread is coming to a close shortly and we are reading more circular comments and simply silly material that is a far cry from adult dialogue on a serious topic… and, I am not really sure why the intensity has seemed to increase along with the vinegar.

Anyway - your posts are great.

God bless

Sig, I never suggested you said that man can save himself. I was affirming the Catholic position that man cannot save himself but that God nonetheless elects to use man in his salvation. The misreading’s on your part, as usual.

 

[Sig]

Oh, I have it, no problem. Just tell me the page and I’ll look it up.

OK, well if you have Ott’s book, just look in the back to the pages that say, “Index,” and then go the “P” alphabetical listings, and then go through them to “predestination,” and the numbers given there correspond to the pages in the book on which you’ll find the subject matter stated and discussed.

If you can’t find the index, or any of the alphabetial listings, and so on, get back to me, and I’ll give you the page numbers.

 

[fhansen]

Great. That’s what’s known as God’s “permissive,” or “revealed” will.

Dt 29:29 says, "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all of the words of this law."

Do you believe that Scripture?

Sure, if it’s understood to mean that we can’t know or understand all the ways of the Lord. But that’s a blanket statement that doesn’t necessarily support your position in any way.

 

[Sig]

Right, so if I am following you then the “false prophets” of 2 Peter 2 were never saved to begin with, and that is why they “returned” to what it was they were doing before they came into the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

No, I didn’t know that you could believe and not be converted. I thought that to believe was to be converted.

Conversion is generally described as that time when one goes from mere ascent to things concerning God and Christ, into regeneration and belief into those things one previously only intellectually ascented to.

It’s seen in Nicodemus in John 3. He believed Jesus was a teacher from God, but had not put his trust and faith in Him. It can be seen again in Acts 26:27ff where Agrippa believes the prophets and such, but he’s clearly not putting his faith and trust into them, or into the Gospel Paul proclaims.

My own experience was the same. Before being saved, I believed things about the Gospel, and about Christ, but I never committed to them as being the source of my salvation and my life.

That’s what I believe is being said in the parable of the seed and the soils, Lk8:4-15.

Those three that fell away had knowledge of Christ, but never converted from intellectual ascent to complete trust and surrender to God’s will.

 

[Sig]

Sure, if it’s understood to mean that we can’t know or understand all the ways of the Lord. But that’s a blanket statement that doesn’t necessarily support your position in any way.

Sure it does. Eph 1:11 says that God works all things according to the purpose of His own will.

You don’t what those things are that God has willed, and decreed. The knowledge of them is His alone. The secret things belong to the Lord (Dt 29:29).

God’s “secret” will

God has a “premissive,” or “revealed” will: "Thou shall not…God has commanded all men to repent…there is no other name by which men must be saved…"

And God has a “secret” will. God has willed that ??? will occur. Only He knows what that is.

 

[Sig]

We lost our free will?

When?