Once Saved Always Saved?

[Sig]

No my good sir in fact my statement came directly from your conclusion. Since God directly chooses who to save, He must also harden others (according to some of the passages you showed me) and therefore predestined for them to hell. Then what word is fitting to describe such being beside tyrannical? Also since you said the Son wills for all men to come to Him, and yet according to you the Father only predestines SOME to come, that does present a disunion between the members of the Trinity

In your opinion, and thank you for the more rational words and thoughts.

I reject your understanding of course, but you are certainly entitled to be wrong.

 

[Sig]

Yes, scripture says He’s not, which means man’s will must be free in choosing his final destiny.

I’m sorry, but I don’t get the connection between God not being the author of sin, and man having a will that is not free?

 

[paul_c]

Neither is there any conflict in Calvin’s understanding of free will/predestination.

None whatsoever.

Honestly, what a ridiculous thing to deny free will when every man exercises his own free will on a daily basis. How foolish can you be… (take this rhetorically)

 

[fhansen]

I’m sorry, but I don’t get the connection between God not being the author of sin, and man having a will that is not free?

Someone has to be the author of evil. The only other alternative is that moral evil (sin) is an illusion. If man has no free will, then he can’t be held responsible for sin.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

I’m sorry, but I don’t get the connection between God not being the author of sin, and man having a will that is not free?

There is an inherent contradiction between Calvin notion of predestination and freewill. Provided that God predestines some to be saved, and some to be with Satan, and granted that God will can never end, that mean regardless of what a person does, he will eventually ends up in hell. Also as well to the one predestined, regardless of how much he sins and how much he might hate God and his religion, he will always destined to be saved. If Calvin notion of predestination is true, then free will cannot be true, for God’s will trumps the person’s freedom to choose salvation.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, UnityofTrinity,

I have a question in the form of a request for a clarification…

Nowhere in Scripture says Salvation can be lost. Maybe it is because salvation is a process to be fulfilled to the end, to be persevered, not something instantaneous.Accepting Christ is the first step to reconciliation, but what about sins? Forgiveness? Are you saying that once someone accept Christ, he will have a jail free opportunity to commit sins? It is not just faith, but faith TIL THE END that can save souls

In the Parabel of the Sower (Matt 13) we find that while all seeds left the Sower’s Hand - not all produced fruit.

In the 25th Chapter of Matthew we find three groups who find that their eternal salvation is lost: the foolish virgins, the lazy servant and those at the Last Judgment who acted like OSAS was valid.

If you would kindly clarify how these scriptural statements interact with your thoughts. Thanks.

God bless

 

[UnityofTrinity]

See Rom 11:7-10.
This was Saint Paul explanation as to why and how salvation came to the Gentiles, as continued in v.11 “Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the gentiles, so as to make them jealous.” Also Paul made referenced to the Old Testament, in which yes the Lord ]was selective, as only Jews could perceive the truth. But that was broken by the advent of Christ, who came to enlightened and save both Jews and Gentiles, that all who come may be saved (note the word all)

See Rom 5:20-6:2.
Paul explanation that the grace of God outmatches the productivity of sins, however it does not justify once saved always saved. As for chapter 6, Paul made an assertion that since Christians are born again through Christ, there is no point of sinning and return to the enslavement of transgression

That’s exactly what Jesus says (Mt 10:22), He also says that the Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee of final salvation (Eph 1:13-14, cf 2 Cor 1:22), and He also says that He who causes men to born again, He also protects those men by His power through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:3-5).

Do you believe that?

I also believe man has a freewill to chooses to depart from God if he wills it. The Holy Spirit promises protection, but it does not mean the person cannot leave God by his own desire, we see this many time with folks who accept Christ and leave the faith

 

[Sig]

Someone has to be the author of evil. The only other alternative is that moral evil (sin) is an illusion. If man has no free will, then he can’t be held responsible for sin.

That’s pretty much what Pelagius said.

 

[Sig]

I also believe man has a freewill to chooses to depart from God if he wills it. The Holy Spirit promises protection, but it does not mean the person cannot leave God by his own desire, we see this many time with folks who accept Christ and leave the faith

Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

If they leave, paraphrasing Arnold, "They’ll be back."

 

[PRmerger]

That’s pretty much what Pelagius said.

Could you provide a source for this, please, Sig? (This does not have to be primary. I will accept a quote that says, "Pelagius said ")

 

[tqualey]

Hi, UnityofTrinity,

Well, I think you have laid bare the basic heresy of OSAS!

God wills the salvation of all men (1Tim 2:4). But because of free will - not all men are willing to be saved.

The Heavenly Host had a test - and that means some (1/3 of the total) used their free wills but chose poorly. (Rev 12:4)

The major difference between men and angels is that God freely chose to give men more than one chance!

God bless

There is an inherent contradiction between Calvin notion of predestination and freewill. Provided that God predestines some to be saved, and some to be with Satan, and granted that God will can never end, that mean regardless of what a person does, he will eventually ends up in hell. Also as well to the one predestined, regardless of how much he sins and how much he might hate God and his religion, he will always destined to be saved. If Calvin notion of predestination is true, then free will cannot be true, for God’s will trumps the person’s freedom to choose salvation.

 

[Sig]

Could you provide a source for this, please, Sig? (This does not have to be primary. I will accept a quote that says, "Pelagius said ")

Yeah, get a book and look up “Pelagianism.”

Goin to the Christmas Concert!

Later!!

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Hi, UnityofTrinity,

I have a question in the form of a request for a clarification…

In the Parabel of the Sower (Matt 13) we find that while all seeds left the Sower’s Hand - not all produced fruit.

In the 25th Chapter of Matthew we find three groups who find that their eternal salvation is lost: the foolish virgins, the lazy servant and those at the Last Judgment who acted like OSAS was valid.

If you would kindly clarify how these scriptural statements interact with your thoughts. Thanks.

God bless

My priest had a series of homilies which he preached about the nature of salvation. He said salvation is two fold, one is objective, the other subjective. Both Protestants and Catholics believe in objective salvation. There is no salvation without faith in Christ (except very rare cases) and we must have faith in order to be saved. However not all believe in subjective salvation, only Catholics do. Subjective salvation is the step after objective salvation, in short it means to strive after perfection and virtues and obedience of God that we can remains in the grace God has given us. This marks salvation as a process because you must persevere til the end. Perseverance therefore is a constant theme throughout Scripture. Thus a Catholic saying: “I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved”.

The parables in fact fit nicely with this belief. For example the story of the virgin. We should remember that all the virgins were chosen, all were given a same lamp to wait for the groom. HOWEVER, only those who were wise and prepare themselves to the greatest measure persevered and receive their reward (marriage), the foolish ones did not, and therefore fail short of glory.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

If they leave, paraphrasing Arnold, "They’ll be back."

I think you are not understanding what “eternal life” is, Sig.

Eternal life exists in the “age to come”. That is, when you cannot perish.

Not when you’re on earth.

"who will not receive many times as much at this time and** in the age to come, eternal life.”-**-Luke 18:30

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

If they leave, paraphrasing Arnold, "They’ll be back."

They will never perish AS LONG AS they remain in Him (Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. ~John 15:4)

 

[PRmerger]

Yeah, get a book and look up “Pelagianism.”

Goin to the Christmas Concert!

Later!!

You cannot make a claim here, Sig, and then not back it up.

It makes it appear as if you, well, just made it up.

That’s pretty much what Pelagius said.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

As far as I know, Calvin was no friend of free will. Here is a quote from Calvin:

This liberty is compatible with our being depraved, the servants of sin, able to do nothing but sin. In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! That man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, ethelodoulos (a voluntary slave); his will being bound by the fetters of sin. – Institutes of Christian Religion, 1:228-29 (2.2.6-7)

Now, this was written in 1536. But, it really is not as dated as it may seem. Some on this thread deny free will - and freely choose to communicate this… and then argue with those who point out that they are using their free will to announce that they have no free will…

God bless

Except that if you accept his, then Gods the author of evil.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, UnityofTrinity,

Thank you for the clarification.

God bless

My priest had a series of homilies which he preached about the nature of salvation. He said salvation is two fold, one is objective, the other subjective. Both Protestants and Catholics believe in objective salvation. There is no salvation without faith in Christ (except very rare cases) and we must have faith in order to be saved. However not all believe in subjective salvation, only Catholics do. Subjective salvation is the step after objective salvation, in short it means to strive after perfection and virtues and obedience of God that we can remains in the grace God has given us. This marks salvation as a process because you must persevere til the end. Perseverance therefore is a constant theme throughout Scripture. Thus a Catholic saying: “I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved”.

The parables in fact fit nicely with this belief. For example the story of the virgin. We should remember that all the virgins were chosen, all were given a same lamp to wait for the groom. HOWEVER, only those who were wise and prepare themselves to the greatest measure persevered and receive their reward (marriage), the foolish ones did not, and therefore fail short of glory.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

What do you mean ‘appear’…? Even with the corect quote the problem is that the interpretation he used, simply turns the verse on its head, rendering it either meaningless or simply in contradiction to the commonly used words and understandings of words and their meanings.

Your request will take a back-seat to his needs … ah, but, I am confident this is just another toy of evasion. And, I guess you will just need to cut him some slack, PR…! But, who knows - maybe spending some time listening to carols may make a positive impact on futhre posts.

God bless

You cannot make a claim here, Sig, and then not back it up.

It makes it appear as if you, well, just made it up.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

One must choose - and this choice is based on Faith in Jesus Christ and the Grace God gives us for this belief.

But, God does not stop with the Will - he goes to the entiere person. We are required to put our Faith into actions - and PR mentioned the Works of Mercy. Here are the actions we can focus on to serve Christ in our neighbor:

The 7 Corporal Works of Mercy
To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To shelter the homeless
To visit the sick
To visit the imprisoned
To bury the dead

Note:
Reference Matthew 25 and Tobias 12. “To visit the imprisoned” was originally listed as “to ransom the captives,” referring to the ransoming of Christians taken prisoner during Moslem aggression.​

The 7 Spiritual Works of Mercy
To counsel the doubtful
To instruct the ignorant
To admonish the sinner
To comfort the sorrowful
To forgive all injuries
To bear wrongs patiently
To pray for the living and the dead

God bless

Yes, scripture says He’s not, which means man’s will must be free in choosing his final destiny.