Once saved always saved?

[gardenswithkids]

april_hosen:

Might I add that by saying that we are saved by works and faith you might as well be telling Jesus “Your sacrice isn’t good enough.” Wow, what a great way to spit in the face of Your Savior.

Now this isn’t in the Bible, but some say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. If our works are a sincere attempt to imitate Our Savior, why would He be offended? Rather than spitting in His face, we tell Him that His sacrifice is so good that we wish to imitate it in whatever small way we can.

 

[deb1]

april_hosen:

Hi E.E.N.S,
I see where you’re going but I think I missed a part of the Bible. Do you remember that part where it says something along the lines of “I stand at the door and knock.”? Its our job to open the door, when He’s knocking at our hearts. We do that by telling Him that we want Him to come in and such. But how do we talk to Him, we pray.
Now if you want to get into works there are a TON of verses that back up the fact that they are useless in our salvation. They are useful in strengthening our relationship with Christ because some of them do bring us closer. But if our heart and mind is to save ourselves from eternal damnation then our attempts are futile and worthless. Might I add that by saying that we are saved by works and faith you might as well be telling Jesus “Your sacrice isn’t good enough.” Wow, what a great way to spit in the face of Your Savior.
If you want those verses I’ll be glad to give them to you. By the way maybe everyone else isnt the one with the blindfold on.

Please post the bible verses, but write out the whole verse in your post. It would be interesting to hear your beliefs as opposed to ours.

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

Is it just me, or is someone of true faith and true grace typically going to reflect that in their works because of the love they have for Christ? I know that the closer I come to Christ, the better a person I become and the more sacrifice I am able to give back to Him…so, don’t the two go hand in hand most of the time anyway?
in the end, the relationship between a person and his savior is just that, a relationship between a person and his savior. Only those two involved can know how truly “saved” they are.

 

[ascund]

Greetings

I guess I’ll try this forum for a while. I’m a bona fide Free Grace Advocate. That would make me your bona fide opponent in theology.

Usually, when I enter into discussions on OSAS, people of your persuasion get violent and responses become volatile. But who knows what will happen? Let’s try it - again.

For starters, has anyone actually done the exegetical preparatory work on the word “justification.” I assume Catholics can find Bible tools for Greek as easily as I can. If you have no clue, try the following link: www.blueletterbible.com

Justification only occurs a few times. It is easy to see that justification is God’s activity alone. Humans are strictly passive recipients of God’s imputed righteousness. God’s declaration of righteousness happens at the moment of faith.

Let’s stop here and see if you guys can respond with a biblical investigation of the word justification. I’ll respond Friday Aug 5 with my own analysis. I’ve actually done this - but learning is best when you dig for it on your own.

Heb 10:14! I think you guys stumble really hard over this verse.
May Jesus be praised!
Lloyd

 

[But_for_Grace]

ascund:

Greetings

I guess I’ll try this forum for a while. I’m a bona fide Free Grace Advocate. That would make me your bona fide opponent in theology.

Usually, when I enter into discussions on OSAS, people of your persuasion get violent and responses become volatile. But who knows what will happen? Let’s try it - again.

Very well, let’s

ascund:

For starters, has anyone actually done the exegetical preparatory work on the word “justification.” I assume Catholics can find Bible tools for Greek as easily as I can. If you have no clue, try the following link: www.blueletterbible.com

Justification only occurs a few times. It is easy to see that justification is God’s activity alone. Humans are strictly passive recipients of God’s imputed righteousness. God’s declaration of righteousness happens at the moment of faith.

Let’s stop here and see if you guys can respond with a biblical investigation of the word justification. I’ll respond Friday Aug 5 with my own analysis. I’ve actually done this - but learning is best when you dig for it on your own.

The problem is that you cannot do an exegsis on a word seperate from the rest of scripture. There is only one valid interpratation of scripture, the one that takes into account the entirity of scripture.

If you isolate a letter then other christians are bothers not brothers.

If you isolate a word then we shall have other gods instead of shall not.

If you isolate a verse then the same thing happens. Let’s look then.

Paul says:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren.
Rom 8:30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified. (DRB)

so then he also says:

Rom 1:17 For the justice of God is revealed therein, from faith unto faith, as it is written: The just man liveth by faith. (DRB)

and also:

Heb 10:38 But my just man liveth by faith: but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul.
Heb 10:39 But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul. (DRB)

and:

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (DRB)

and again:

Rom 5:1 Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: (DRB)

But this is only part of the story that the bible presents us with, for it is also know that:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (DRB)

and:

Jam 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jam 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (DRB)

For it is imposible for the believer to seperate works from faith, thus Paul told Titus:

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him: being abominable and incredulous and to every good work reprobate. (DRB)

and also:

Tit 3:8 It is a faithful saying. And these things I will have thee affirm constantly, that they who believe in God may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (DRB)

and elsewhere he says:

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart, in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with clean water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised):
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: (DRB)

and Peter tells us:

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. (DRB)

James also tells us:

Jam 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? (DRB)

Yes we are justified by grace alone, but we say also that we are justified by faith because faith is a gift of God:

Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. (ESV)

continued…

 

[But_for_Grace]

…continuing

Faith is given to us by God (that is like any gift of God it is a grace), and unless we decide to deny free will we must afirm that we have the choise to either act in accordance with that faith which we have recieverd or to deny it. However we cannot say that faith is sufficient, or that *sola fides * is a valid interpratation of the bible because it ignores so many other verses. If you wish to deal with 2 Peter 1:10 and James 2:17-20, 24 then perhaps you might find an audience, but if you continue to ignore them, then by dening the truth that is present in the bible itself you discredit your own statements.

ascund:

Heb 10:14! I think you guys stumble really hard over this verse.
May Jesus be praised!
Lloyd

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (DRB)

Perhaps if you state how you think that we have stumbled here we might be able to correct you as to the truth.

But alas I have spoken to much and so for now,
finis

 

[E.E.N.S]

ascund:

Heb 10:14! I think you guys stumble really hard over this verse.
May Jesus be praised!
Lloyd

Lloyd, no problem here, in fact let’s start at verse 14 shall we, and take a closer look…

14 For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Ghost also doth testify this to us. For after that he said:

14 “For by one…sanctified.” Catholics call upon this one-time event at each and every Mass; Christ one perfect sacrifice.

16 And this is the testament which I will make unto them after those days, saith the Lord. I will give my laws in their hearts, and on their minds will I write them: 17 And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. 18 Now where there is a remission of these, there is no more an oblation for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, a confidence in the entering into the holies by the blood of Christ; 20 A new and living way which he hath dedicated for us through the veil, that is to say, his flesh,

*18 “There is no more an oblation for sin”… Where there is a full remission of sins, as in baptism, there is no more occasion for a sin offering to be made for such sins already remitted; and as for sins committed afterwards, they can only be remitted in virtue of the one oblation of Christ’s death. *

21 And a high priest over the house of God: 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised), 24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

*26 “If we sin wilfully”… He speaks of the sin of wilful apostasy from the known truth; after which, as we can not be baptized again, we can not expect to have that abundant remission of sins, which Christ purchased by his death, applied to our souls in that ample manner as it is in baptism: but we have rather all manner of reason to look for a dreadful judgment; the more because apostates from the known truth, seldom or never have the grace to return to it. *

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Surprise! A response with lots of verses ignoring the contextual clues of justification and sanctification.
This kind of Bible study leads nowhere. Even I can lump a bunch of passages and return fire in a machine gun fashion. Since this approach would never be tolerated in a face to face discussion, why do it here? I thought you were up to a genuine discussion? Otherwise, we can exchange links all day long. If you really want a genuine exchange, then we need to start at the basics.

Go back to the drawing board and figure out the word justification. One cannot jump to the heights of systematic theology by ignoring the basics. Skipping the basics is a really terrible hermeneutical plan.

In order to have a proper exchange, both sides need to rightly articulate the other side. Why don’t you itchy types check out this link. YOu might even learn your own position better!

presenttruthmag.com/archive/II/2-3.htm

Take the quiz! Justification is an important topic. Try the biblical work. There is only 40 uses of the word. I’ll give my analysis tomorrow. Really, you guys need to learn to get into God’s Word and not simply throw denominational rhetoric around.

Again, if you struggle with the really good exegetical work, here is a good tool to help you:

blueletterbible.org

Try it!
Lloyd

 

[E.E.N.S]

Lloyd you lost me; throwing links around?! I didn’t see any links being thrown around…and as for taking things out of context, all I did was take the one verse that you supplied and put it into context. So far all you have done was throw around verbal hot air…I am a convert from the Calvanistic side - you will have to try harder to throw something out that will stump me (and there are far more intelligent people here than I.)

In fact, the only links that have been used starting from your initial post are yours!

Peace brother.

 

[CheesusPowerKid]

Charity is a good thing here. Unless your only purpose is to start a fight instead of a discussion, it would be smart to refrain from the more personal attacks Peace.

In Him,
Britty

 

[Lazerlike42]

We can not be sure we are saved. Even St. Paul did not know for sure.

Phi 3:10-15 My goal is to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, assuming that I will somehow reach the resurrection from among the dead. Not that I have already reached the goal or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead, I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God’s heavenly call in Christ Jesus. Therefore, all who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will reveal this to you also.

Note several things from thbis passage. It is St. Paul’s goal the he know Christ and to reach the resurrection. He is assuming he will “somehow” reach the resurrection. He is not sure of it at all. Also notice that he has already “been taken hold of by Christ.” He clearly has faith, and true faith at that. Christ has gone so far as to take hold of St. Paul, so as that, as he tells us elsewhere, it is not Paul who lives but rather Christ who lives in him. Even given that St. Paul is not sure of his salvation. He does not consider himself “to have taken hold of it.” He is “reaching forward” and striving for the “prize” of salvation that awaits him, but he does not have it. In fact, he warns us that all mature Christians should think this way or else God will “reaveal” it to them. Anybody familiar with the language of the Scriptures knows that the idea of God “revealing” something to a person refers to God’s wrath and judgement. This is a strong warning against the idea of believing we are already saved.

Also read St. Paul’s statement in Romans:

Rom 5:2 “Also through Him, we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.”

St. Paul does not say that we rejoice in the Glory of God, but in the hope of it.
Karl Keating:

After a parish seminar I spoke with a young man, a Fundamentalist, who insisted that one can have an absolute assurance of salvation.

“All you need to do is to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior,” he said. That acceptance will make you a “born-again Christian,” with heaven guaranteed. Nothing you later might do, no sin you might commit, would exclude you from heaven.

I proposed to him a hypothetical situation.

"Let’s say your pastor became a born-again Christian at age fifteen. He now is 75 and for sixty years has lived an exemplary Christian life. So far as anyone knows, and so far as he himself knows, he never, in those sixty years, has committed a serious sin.

"Today, while being in full possession of his faculties, he changes completely. He commits adultery, murders a stranger, robs a bank, deliberately runs over a cat with his car, shouts obscenities at passersby, and then commits suicide, cursing God as he dies unrepentant.

“My question to you,” I said to the young man, “is this: Does your minister go to heaven or hell?”

“To hell, of course.”

“How can that be, since he is a born-again Christian?”

“No, he isn’t.”

“Yes, he is, as I told you at the start.”

“No, he can’t be born-again.”

“Hey, this is my hypothetical! I told you he was a born-again Christian.”

“No born-again Christian would do those things.”

“So you mean that he fooled everyone, including himself, for sixty years? You mean he was mistaken?”

“Of course. There’s no other answer.”

Then I had a small revelation.

"What you’re saying is that you can’t tell whether a man really is a born-again Christian until he’s safely dead. It means you can’t tell if you yourself are a real Christian. You might be fooling yourself, as the minister fooled himself. The conclusion is that you can’t have the absolute assurance you’d like to have.

"In practice, if not in theory, you are perilously close to the Catholic understanding of salvation.

"The Catholic Church teaches that we can have a moral assurance of salvation but not an absolute assurance. We can be assured that we will go to heaven–if we remain in the state of grace. But we can have no assurance that we will persevere in such a state, much as we might want to at the moment.

"The Church teaches that since ‘God wills the salvation of all men,’ he gives each of us enough grace to be saved. Grace is a gift, and a gift is not forced upon the recipient. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it can be rejected after once being accepted.

“The minister in my hypothetical once accepted grace and, on the last day of his life, rejected it, losing his salvation. He died grace-less and therefore disqualified for heaven.”

 

[But_for_Grace]

ascund:

Surprise! A response with lots of verses ignoring the contextual clues of justification and sanctification.
This kind of Bible study leads nowhere. Even I can lump a bunch of passages and return fire in a machine gun fashion. Since this approach would never be tolerated in a face to face discussion, why do it here? I thought you were up to a genuine discussion? Otherwise, we can exchange links all day long. If you really want a genuine exchange, then we need to start at the basics.

Well I suppose that you are referring to me.

The link that you refer to in your previous post will not bear much credit on this forum as it is a nest of anticatholic lies. (Just go to the main page and scroll half way down to see the site claiming that “Papal Rome” is connected to the beast)

Why is it that protestants always try to reinvent the wheel. The truth has been consistently taught for nearly two-thousand years, handed from the apostles to the church fathers and so on to today.

Apparently you did not get the point of my last post: salvation by faith alone is a lie, especially if you believe what the site you linked to says, because the bible also says:

Jam 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? (DRB)

Perhaps you need to reexamine your stance. How can you take one verse out of the bible and claim that it is absolute truth but ignore another verse. If you insist on using sola scriptora then atleast give the full bible its voice instead of selectively reading to find what supports the claim that you wish to make. Otherwise we must label you as Peter says:

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. (DRB)

 

[Lillith]

ascund:

then we need to start at the basics.
Go back to the drawing board and figure out the word justification.
In order to have a proper exchange, both sides need to rightly articulate the other side. Lloyd

Hello Loyd…Yes…lets
Long ago, I looked up what the word justification means to once saved always saved Protestants, because I thought it would be helpful for understanding. I have also been very surprised to find that a lot of O.S.A.S. subscribers do not understand what they are buying into. To me it seems easier to argue with their truth, than how they “pretty” it up.

This is it in a nutshell:

G-d is the judge and when justification is declared Fundamentalists believe that G-d covers our sins but never actually removes them, even if the born again person remains in sin or is unjust, he is justified, and this justification occurs when a person says the sinner’s prayer. Justification does not get rid of the sin…justification covers the sin, like a cloak. Underneath the cloak the person can be perverse and sinful, because all men are always, and there is no way to be good…we are all inherently bad and sinful evil creatures. It is not inner renewal, only Christ’s sacrifice. On judgment day, the Lord our G-d will not see the person’s sin, and when he looks at the saved person he only sees Jesus, and he is declared justified.

Basically, the soul remains ugly and hidden under a cloak. To me I find this depressing and what I don’t understand is how fundamentalists square this with the teaching that G-d gives us stating that we are made in his image.

 

[Holly3278]

Once saved, always saved is a dangerous doctrine and can be used as an excuse to sin as much as one wants after receiving their salvation. The Devil is truly at work with this doctrine. People will think they are saved forever and so they’ll go out and sin (even seriously) and actually lose their salvation (or state of grace) and not even know it.

 

[ascund]

Greetings in Jesus’ Name

As your theological opponent (so please don’t twist me into the devil’s brother), I begin showing you your error with the lexical analysis of justification. It is my hope that through this process that you will see your unwitting denial of Jesus Christ and trust in Him completely, solely and only by faith.

This will be a difficult series of exchanges for most. The Bible will be the basis; not denominational creeds. Ergo, I’m not surprised that no one produced a serious analysis of justification. This sort of work demolishes process salvation and conditional eternal life.

Here I go. Hope you are ready for what comes. I’ll do it in three parts in an attempt to keep the posts short. Some of you will want to skip to the second post on Justification: Sorted by Voice, then Tense. Most of you will want to pay special attention to the third post on Justification: Conclusions.

May the LORD bless your reading of His Data. Here are the uses of the word dikaiow in the NT.

Matt 11:19; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified of her children.
Matt 12:37; Fut Pass Ind; You will be justified by your words.
Luke 7:29; Aor Act Ind; The publicans justified God
Luke 7:35; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified by her children.
Luke 10:29; Pres Act Inf; The lawyer, willing to justify himself, said to Jesus …
Luke 16:15; Pres Act Ptcp; You are those who are justifying yourselves before men.
Luke 18:14; Perf Pass Ptcp; The publican went away justified.
Acts 13:39; Pres Pass Ind; All who believe are justified
Rom 2:13; Fut Pass Ind; The doers of the law will be justified.
Rom 3:4; Aor Pass Subj; God’s Word is given that you might be justified.
Rom 3:20; Fut Pass Ind; No one will be justified by the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:24; Pres Pass Ptcp; Being justified freely by his grace through Jesus’ redemption.
Rom 3:26; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One justifying those who believe in Jesus.
Rom 3:28; Pres Pass Infin; We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:30; Fut Act Ind; God will justify by faith.
Rom 4:2; Aor Pass Ind; If Abraham was justified by works he can boast.
Rom 4:5; Pres Act Ptcp; Those who believe in Jesus are justified. Faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:1; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Rom 5:9; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by Jesus’ blood, we shall be saved from God’s wrath.
Rom 6:7; Perf Pass Ind; He that is dead is freed (justified) from sin.
Rom 8:30; Aor Act Ind; Those who he called, he justified and glorified.
Rom 8:33; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One Who justifies.
I Cor 4:4; Perf Pass Ind; I am not yet justified (because of stewardship).
I Cor 6:11; Aor Pass Ind; We are justified in Jesus’ name by God’s Spirit.
Gal 2:16; Pres Pass Ind; We are not justified by the works of the law.
Gal 2:17; Aor Pass Infin; If we seek to be justified by Christ and found to be sinners, is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!
Gal 3:8; Pres Act Ind; God would justify the heathen through faith.
Gal 3:11; Pres Pass Ind; No one is justified by the law. The just (dikaios) shall live by faith.
Gal 3:24; Aor Pass Subj; The law brought us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 5:4; Pres Pass Ind; Christ is of no effect if you are justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace.
I Tim 3:16; Aor Pass Ind; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, believed in the world, and received up into glory.
Tit. 3:7; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs.
James 2:21; Aor Pass Ind; Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up Isaac?
James 2:24; Pres Pass Ind; A man is justified by works and not by faith only.
James 2:25; Aor Pass Ind; Rahab was justified by works.
Rev 22:11; Aor Pass Imper; He who is righteous, let him be righteous still.

This isn’t so overwhelming is it? More to come!
May Jesus be glorified
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Greetings once again!
What glory it will be when we can see the realities of eternal life!

Here is my second post on the lexical analysis of justification. I hope that God’s light will start penetrating the error of process salvation and conditional promises at this point.

ACTIVE VOICE
Luke 10:29; Pres Act Inf; The lawyer, willing to justify himself, said to Jesus …
Luke 16:15; Pres Act Ptcp; You are those who are justifying yourselves before men.
Rom 3:26; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One justifying those who believe in Jesus.
Rom 8:33; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One Who justifies.
Gal 3:8; Pres Act Ind; God would justify the heathen through faith.

Rom 3:30; Fut Act Ind; God will justify by faith.
Rom 8:30; Aor Act Ind; Those who he called, he justified and glorified.
Luke 7:29; Aor Act Ind; The publicans justified God.

PASSIVE VOICE
Acts 13:39; Pres Pass Ind; All who believe are justified
Rom 3:24; Pres Pass Ptcp; Being justified freely by his grace through Jesus’ redemption.
Rom 3:28; Pres Pass Infin; We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 4:5; Pres Act Ptcp; Those who believe in Jesus are justified. Faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16; Pres Pass Ind; We are not justified by the works of the law.
Gal 3:11; Pres Pass Ind; No one is justified by the law. The just (dikaios) shall live by faith.
Gal 5:4; Pres Pass Ind; Christ is of no effect if you are justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace.
James 2:24; Pres Pass Ind; A man is justified by works and not by faith only.

Matt 11:19; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified of her children.
Luke 7:35; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified by her children.
Rom 3:4; Aor Pass Subj; God’s Word is given that you might be justified.
Rom 4:2; Aor Pass Ind; If Abraham was justified by works he can boast.
Rom 5:1; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Rom 5:9; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by Jesus’ blood, we shall be saved from God’s wrath.
I Cor 6:11; Aor Pass Ind; We are justified in Jesus’ name by God’s Spirit.
Gal 2:17; Aor Pass Infin; If we seek to be justified by Christ and found to be sinners, is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!
Gal 3:24; Aor Pass Subj; The law brought us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
I Tim 3:16; Aor Pass Ind; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, believed in the world, and received up into glory.
Tit. 3:7; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs.
James 2:21; Aor Pass Ind; Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up Isaac?
James 2:25; Aor Pass Ind; Rahab was justified by works.
Rev 22:11; Aor Pass Imper; He who is righteous, let him be righteous still.

Matt 12:37; Fut Pass Ind; You will be justified by your words.
Rom 2:13; Fut Pass Ind; The doers of the law will be justified.
Rom 3:20; Fut Pass Ind; No one will be justified by the deeds of the law.

Luke 18:14; Perf Pass Ptcp; The publican went away justified.
Rom 6:7; Perf Pass Ind; He that is dead is freed (justified) from sin.
I Cor 4:4; Perf Pass Ind; I am not yet justified (because of stewardship).

Maybe, just maybe, someone might actually pick up on the keys to understanding the Greek uses. It would be the domain of God’s activity and the temporal domain.

I’ve made the temporal domain easy to see. I’ll address the domain of God’s activity in the next post. Stay with me.

Obviously, we can’t stop here. In additional lexical analysis, we need to add context. To this, we need to add verification from Scripture itself.

But context will be a big disagreement between us, especially in the James passages. Later on these.
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Here is the third post on the lexical analysis of justification. After this, we can begin referring back to the posts. The post #'s are 55, 56, and maybe 57 (I haven’t yet submitted it).

FROM THE ACTIVE VOICE
Negatively,
Jesus shows the lawyer’s error in self justification w. God (Luke 10:29).
We can justify ourselves before others (Luke 16:15).

Positively,
God alone is active in justification (Rom 3:26; 8:30,33; Gal 3:8).
Positional justification is linked with positional sanctification (Rom 8:30).
Other, The publicans justified God: Luke 7:29.

FROM THE PASSIVE VOICE
Before other humans, we are justified by works and faith (James 2) and our words (Matt 12:37).

Humans are passively justified by God’s grace, by faith in Jesus’ name, by God’s Spirit, apart from works or deeds of the law. Justification results in permanent forgiveness of sin (Rom 6:7).

OK. The lexical analysis is done. In the next post, I’ll begin the theological analysis. Most of you guys think this lexical stuff is probably not needed. And you might have a certain valid point.

But the old adage goes that the devil is in the details. We need to make sure to eliminate his vile influences from the git-go. Us evangelical protestants (no - I’m not a liberal) use nothing but the Bible!

Alas! Work just reared its ugly head. I have committments to work first. Maybe later this afternoon on the theology stuff.

Shalom
Lloyd

 

[But_for_Grace]

Okay ascund, since you will not be posting the rest for a bit, I shall attempt to deal with what you have posted thus far.

on the greek, looking at Romans 3:26 the word rendered as “just” in the KJV, DRB, ESV, and many others is

δίκαιος
dikaios
dik’-ah-yos
From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).
leading us to

δίκη
dikē
dee’-kay
Probably from G1166; right (as self evident), that is, justice (the principle, a decision, or its execution): - judgment, punish, vengeance.

and hence to

δεικνύω
deiknuō
dike-noo’-o
A prolonged form of an obsolete primary of the same meaning; to show (literally or figuratively): - shew.

This is very telling, because it tells us that in greek the word for “just” has to do with the decision and or execution of justice. Therefore, God declaring that he justifies man and that his grace is the only way that we are justified, really tells us that he has decided to count us as if we were truly just (that is innocent or holy) and that he has executed his justice upon his Son who became sin for us.

Now God list two ways that we are justified, by grace and by faith. As you pointed out, we are justifed by grace due to Christ’s crucificition, but if by grace then how can it be by faith? Do you not see that faith is an action? Faith denotes “I believe” and the problem is the “I” for we do not justify ourselves before God.
*
Faith
FAITH, n. [L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.]

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.
2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.
3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Cesar.* [Websters Dictionary]

Each of the verbs associted with faith require a subject, and I to act, and hence faith is an active process and hence a work, so to speak. Therefore if one does not cooperate with God, by appling their faith to God’s grace then one cannot be saved/justified.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Greetings to you also Lloyd (aka ascund) in the name of Jesus! When you first posted here you mentioned in your previous exchanges with Catholics:

ascund:

Usually, when I enter into discussions on OSAS, people of your persuasion get violent and responses become volatile.

I was saddened to read that, but as I read your posts now I understand better why this has been your experience.

ascund:

I begin showing you your error with the lexical analysis of justification. It is my hope that through this process that you will see your unwitting denial of Jesus Christ and trust in Him completely, solely and only by faith

Who do you really believe will save us Catholics? Will Jesus save us, or will your posts, “showing us our errors” save us?

While you write that it is only faith that will save us, you are doing work that is in addition to the work Jesus did on the cross for us. You hope that this exchange with us will lead us to your understanding of Jesus, and thus you will believe we are saved. Why are you working for the salvation of others? Didn’t you say Jesus did the work? Why do feel compelled to “add something”? Don’t you believe what you are saying that faith in Jesus is enough?

ascund:

It is my hope that through this process that you will see your unwitting denial of Jesus Christ and trust in Him completely, solely and only by faith.

Why are you hoping that I will see I deny Jesus? I thought you wanted us to have faith in Him, not deny Him? I don’t deny Him. I do have faith in Him. I just don’t interpret the Bible the same way you do. Apparently my faith in Jesus must be accompanied by your Biblical interpretation in order for you to consider me saved. You try to work for my salvation, because you don’t trust that my faith in Jesus is enough. I have faith that His work on the cross can save me, but I don’t have faith in your interpretations of scripture.

Much earlier on this thread I wrote “some are completely convinced that the person who claims to believe in Jesus but who goes onto commit every form of sin condemned by St. Paul in Romans is assured of salvation, while also convinced that a Catholic who prays daily and strives to do what Jesus says is unsaved.” Are you ascund, the type of person I was referring to here, or do you believe that Catholics can be saved by Jesus while they remain in the Catholic Church?

 

[ascund]

Greetings

THEOLOGICAL CONCLUSIONS
Only God justifies. Rom 3:23-26 and Rom 8:33 shows that God’s righteousness is declare for the remission of sins. Thayer’s Lexicon defines dikaiow three ways: to render righteous, to show to be righteous, and to declare to be righteous. The sorting shows that God alone justifies.

With respect to the tenses.
In the past tense, dikaiovw is the believer’s historic release from the penalty of sin (Rom. 5:1, 6:7) through God’s declaration of righteousness (Rom. 3:30). Being freed from sin (Rom. 6:7) is presented in the perfect tense. Abraham is an example of one who was justified by faith (Rom. 4). Believers are both justified and sanctified (I Cor. 6:11). In the present tense, justification is used to show the lawyer’s errant quest to justify himself before Jesus (Luke 10:29). Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for self-righteously justifying themselves before others (Luke 16:15). In Paul’s Antioch sermon, he shows that the faithful are presently being justified (Acts 13:39). In Rom. 3:24-28, sinners are presently being freely justified by God’s grace through faith in Jesus’ propitiating blood. In the future tense, all the doers of the law will be justified (Rom. 2:13). Paul shows that if believers are now justified by Jesus’ blood, they shall even more be saved through Him (Rom. 5:9-10). Scriptures, speaking prophetically, declare that God will justify even the heathen through faith (Gal. 3:8).

I busted the 5000 word limit. So I cut and will paste into next post.
LAO