Once saved always saved ?

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Wow! I can see why I don’t follow Luther, thats for sure. Kinda in dirrect conflict with the word of God, don’t ya think.

What about St Mark. You know the scripture that if you speak against the Holy Spirit its unforgivable.

God says if you sin against the Holy Spirit, Luther says NO SIN. I think I will stick with the word of God.
You are quite right. As I mentioned earlier, Psalm 69 mentions the fact that we can have our names blotted out of the book of the righteous…I’d say certain sins would be the cause of that. Luther, though he perhaps had some good ideas, certainly fell short in many ways.
 
I was a believer in OSAS most of my life.

They believe Christ Righteousness is imputed on you and you are DECLARED righteous not made righteous. Thus once you say the sinners prayer you are set, get out of hell free card obtained! It is not about sin since they do not believe in venial vs mortal sin. They believe that all sins are equal. A white lie is equal to genocide in Gods eyes.

It is not biblical and just a Protestant tradition.

Many evangelicals believe OSAS on the surface, and that’s how it is presented in rally’s and church, but they believe a modified version when it comes down to it.

They would say if you really were sincere in your heart about your faith, then it will be reflected in your works, so a horrible sinner was never saved to begin with.

I personally know that the mentality of "god will forgive me so i can do this or that sin"is very common among evangelical laity.
Very true, and unfortunately it helps Satan’s plan of polluting their message.
 
Now this amazes me. Okay not that I disagree we are judged by the fruit we produce. But my question is you are saying you can BE SURE you are saved if your faith produces good fruit.

But what if you are so sure, but God sees it different then You do? St Paul says the same thing. He says he has No Idea is he is saved or not. Now if St Paul who was a Apostle of Christ and gave up his life for him, what makes you think you could be so sure.

Just wondering is all.
Thank you for the question. I don’t recall Paul ever saying he wasn’t sure he was saved…In fact, he said: “Nothing can separate us from the love of God.” Jesus said that he would allow no one who had out their trust in Him to slip away.
Now, I am not in a position to judge another person’s status of salvation. Neither is any other believer. But YES, you should be able to KNOW you are saved, if you have faith and it is proved by your actions. If you see another believer producing fruit, you can infer that they are a believer.
It is important to understand that “knowing” is more of a knowledge based on evidence rather than absolute knowledge, which only God has. But it is definitely not capricious on behalf of God. That’s a major thing that differentiates a Christian from Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or many other religions/cults, who are wholly reliant on a capricious God to decide whether they are saved.
Our God gives us more confidence than that; if he didn’t, why even try to follow Him? Your odds would be just as good without trying.
 
Let’s draw this comparison between Peter and Judas.
In Luke, Jesus prays for Peter to be strengthened and delivered through his trial.
Luke 22:31-32 31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and when you are converted, strengthen your brothers.

Does he pray the same for Judas? NO because he was a devil from the beginning and is really an imposter.

Those that are His He prays for. John 17:9-10 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me; for they are yours. 10And all my are yours, and your are mine; and I am glorified in them.
 
Thank you for the question. I don’t recall Paul ever saying he wasn’t sure he was saved…In fact, he said: “Nothing can separate us from the love of God.” Jesus said that he would allow no one who had out their trust in Him to slip away.
Now, I am not in a position to judge another person’s status of salvation. Neither is any other believer. But YES, you should be able to KNOW you are saved, if you have faith and it is proved by your actions. If you see another believer producing fruit, you can infer that they are a believer.
It is important to understand that “knowing” is more of a knowledge based on evidence rather than absolute knowledge, which only God has. But it is definitely not capricious on behalf of God. That’s a major thing that differentiates a Christian from Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or many other religions/cults, who are wholly reliant on a capricious God to decide whether they are saved.
Our God gives us more confidence than that; if he didn’t, why even try to follow Him? Your odds would be just as good without trying.
Actual it says as follows:

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Which of course describes external forces not our own heart attitude which can separate us.

Jesus also says in Revelation

Revelation 3:15-16

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

How do you get assurance of salvation from that?
 
You can add 2 Timothy 4:18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me to his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

It is God who preserves the elect unto heaven.
 
You can add 2 Timothy 4:18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me to his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

It is God who preserves the elect unto heaven.
2 Tim 4 - 16 At my first defense, no one came to my support, but everyone deserted me. May it not be held against them. 17 But the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. And I was delivered from the lion’s mouth. 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Context my friend! 😉

Also don’t forget 2 Tim 4 - 6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing

I am not sure how “keeping the Faith” “Fighting the Good Fight” “Finishing the Race” correspond to Once Saved Always Saved
 
Wow! I can see why I don’t follow Luther, thats for sure. Kinda in dirrect conflict with the word of God, don’t ya think.

What about St Mark. You know the scripture that if you speak against the Holy Spirit its unforgivable.

God says if you sin against the Holy Spirit, Luther says NO SIN. I think I will stick with the word of God.
Luther is not talking about Judas, or the unregenerate. He is talking to Melanchthon, in a letter, encouraging him to continue to preach the Gospel.

He says in the letter, in many ways reminding me of St. Paul’s complaint about himself, that the wrong that he would not do, that he does, and the good he would do, that he does not.
“If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly,** for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world**. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness, but, as Peter says, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. **Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner.” **
Even though even our good works, our preaching of the Gospel (in Melanchthon’s case), has the vestiges of our sin in them, continue to preach the Gospel, continue to try to live the godly life, and depend on the Savior to forgive when we confess, and lead us into life everlasting.
Don’t let the knowledge of our sin keep us from doing His commands:
“Therefore let us arm our hearts with these and similar statements of Scripture so that, when the devil accuses us by saying: You are a sinner; therefore you are damned, we can reply: The very fact that you say I am a sinner makes me want to be just and saved. Nay, you will be damned, says the devil. Indeed not, I reply, for I take refuge in Christ, who gave Himself for my sins. Therefore you will accomplish nothing, Satan, by trying to frighten me by setting the greatness of my sins before me and thus seducing me to sadness, doubt, despair, hatred, contempt, and blasphemy of God. Indeed, by calling me a sinner you are supplying me with weapons against yourself so that I can slay and destroy you with your own sword; for Christ died for sinners. Furthermore, you yourself proclaim the glory of God to me; you remind me of God’s paternal love for me, a miserable and lost sinner; for He so loved the world that He gave His Son (John 3:16). Again, whenever you throw up to me that I am a sinner, you revive in my memory the blessing of Christ, my Redeemer, on whose shoulders, and not on mine, lie all my sins; for “the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all” and “for the transgression of His people was He stricken” (Is. 53:6-8). Therefore when you throw up to me that I am a sinner, you are not terrifying me; you are comforting me beyond measure.”
Amen.

Jon
 
2 Tim 4 - 16 At my first defense, no one came to my support, but everyone deserted me. May it not be held against them. 17 But the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. And I was delivered from the lion’s mouth. 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Context my friend! 😉

Also don’t forget 2 Tim 4 - 6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing

I am not sure how “keeping the Faith” “Fighting the Good Fight” “Finishing the Race” correspond to Once Saved Always Saved
Who preserved Paul to His heavenly kingdom? I is God my friend and no one else.
 
You can add 2 Timothy 4:18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me to his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

It is God who preserves the elect unto heaven.
Who preserved Paul to His heavenly kingdom? I is God my friend and no one else.
No it’s not actually. Granted all good works come from God. The love of God is written in our hearts, but we also have free will.

God did not make us robots, we must choose him.

Further once we choose him, he does not enslave us. He allows us to refuse him. He helps us persevere to the end, but we can walk away at anytime.

The Bible is clear.

Based on the Bible please justify the idea that someone can profess Christ, live a Christian life for 20 years and then have a change of heart and start violating all the commandments and then greet you at the Pearly Gates?!?!?

Cmon
 
=awsiukiewicz;10801281]I am more than certain that there are many learned individuals on this site that could more than answer your question…but…I respectively suggest that you research the Protestant Reformation. sola fide…faith alone…I believe was one of the arguments regarding salvation associated with the Luther’s 95 theses…Once again…I am not elequantly expressing our position as Catholics on this…but do yourself a favor and , assuming you are Catholic…read about ‘being saved’ that is a protestant expression used by many of my southern fellow Christians who happen to be Protestant…As Catholics, as it is my understanding…we do not believe in some majic moment when we are ‘saved’…if that were the case we could do whatever and assume our place in Heaven regardlless of ongoing activity…I can’t address you family members who are divorced/remarried…once again…are you…and these relatives Catholic…? We don’t believe in once saved always saved…I am a work in progress. Frequent reception of the Sacraments, (attending Mass regularly)…and trying to let my daily behavior reflect my faith and who I am. To be sure, to be Catholic is to be counter cultural in this time in history., as I am sure it has always been …but it seems more than ever now…I am certain that one of the more knowledgeable members will explain this in a great deal more eloquant manner…
I will only enter into this conversation to point out that OSAS has NO direct conncection to Luthers 95 thesis. AND to po9int out that OSAS means in their understanding: that they cannot loose there salvation for any sin:rolleyes:

God Bless,
Pat/PJM
 
Actual it says as follows:

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Which of course describes external forces not our own heart attitude which can separate us.
Jesus also says in Revelation

Revelation 3:15-16

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

How do you get assurance of salvation from that?
I think you are on the right track. Notice that in Revelation, the “believers” were “lukewarm”; in other words, they appeared to have faith or said they had faith, but their actions were not showing it.
If no external force can separate us from God, only our heart attitude can. So if our heart attitude is right (evidenced by our fruit), we will be right with God, correct? Therefore, we can certain that we have salvation if we produce fruit…just as we can be certain we have lost it if we fall away. God has made the criteria clear.
If that was confusing, here’s a simplified version: OSAS is false…but when one is saved or unsaved, they can be certain of it. Think of it this way: Imagine you are your soul, and life is a railroad. If you fell on the railroad tracks in front of an oncoming train, you would be in danger of death. If someone pulled you away, you would be saved from death. However, if you perversely went back onto the tracks, you would again be in danger of death.
 
No it’s not actually. Granted all good works come from God. The love of God is written in our hearts, but we also have free will.

God did not make us robots, we must choose him.

Further once we choose him, he does not enslave us. He allows us to refuse him. He helps us persevere to the end, but we can walk away at anytime.

The Bible is clear.

Based on the Bible please justify the idea that someone can profess Christ, live a Christian life for 20 years and then have a change of heart and start violating all the commandments and then greet you at the Pearly Gates?!?!?

Cmon
People that are slaves to sin. where is their free will?

If they are elect then God will preserve them just as He did King David and St Paul.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
 
So that eliminates free-will in its entirety? Again…who forces or encourages people to sin,if there exist no free-will?
This is the depth of their argument

Grossly misinterpreted out of context scripture, which is limited to begin with.

And a person who desperately wants it to be so.
 
Thank you for the question. I don’t recall Paul ever saying he wasn’t sure he was saved…In fact, he said: “Nothing can separate us from the love of God.” Jesus said that he would allow no one who had out their trust in Him to slip away.
Now, I am not in a position to judge another person’s status of salvation. Neither is any other believer. But YES, you should be able to KNOW you are saved, if you have faith and it is proved by your actions. If you see another believer producing fruit, you can infer that they are a believer.
It is important to understand that “knowing” is more of a knowledge based on evidence rather than absolute knowledge, which only God has. But it is definitely not capricious on behalf of God. That’s a major thing that differentiates a Christian from Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or many other religions/cults, who are wholly reliant on a capricious God to decide whether they are saved.
Our God gives us more confidence than that; if he didn’t, why even try to follow Him? Your odds would be just as good without trying.
Philipians 2:12 Paul said work of salvation in fear
 
So that eliminates free-will in its entirety? Again…who forces or encourages people to sin,if there exist no free-will?
It might for some. Lutherans and Catholics agree that we cannot come to saving faith without grace. I say this because the Augsburg Confession’s article on Free Will was accepted by the Confutation. Where free will comes in, and this relates directly to the thread, is only after regeneration. IOW, the free will to refuse grace.

Jon
 
It might for some. Lutherans and Catholics agree that we cannot come to saving faith without grace. I say this because the Augsburg Confession’s article on Free Will was accepted by the Confutation. Where free will comes in, and this relates directly to the thread, is only after regeneration. IOW, the free will to refuse grace.

Jon
Agreed. We believe we are saved at Baptism. It is after Baptism that we, however, must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We through grace, have been given the precious gift of eternal life and it is up to us, with the help of God, not to loose it through the commission of grave sin; a rejection of grace. Grave sin is not possible without free will. The point is that God first gives us the gift of eternal life in Baptism. So it certainly is not anything earned. Its up to us to accept that gift and guard it throughout our lives. In Christ’s great wisdom he also gave us the sacrament of Reconciliation, again, a font of saving grace. I’m not sure what more one could expect from a loving God in his efforts to save us.

I thank God for the gift of Reconciliation. I would truly be lost without it.
 
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