once saved always saved?

[deb1]

Here is an analogy, probably not a good one.

A person meets the ideal mate. They are married and the spouse is wonderful, kind, loving and is always open to sex. How likely is the person to cheat? Well, we know from experience that very good spouses have husbands and wives who do cheat. Why? Because we are human and if we don’t know our own weakness, we can fall.

I, myself, have the weakness of laziness. For the past several days I haven’t read my bible or said my rosary. Why not? There is no reason except that I am lazy. It is a fault that I must guard myself against.My own personal demon. This might not seem horrendous but I could see that over time, I could fall away from God. It wouldn’t be a conscious, dramatic rebellion, just a gradual dying away.

 

[SolaChristo]

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. F60 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand

 

[SolaChristo]

deb1:

I think that sin and doubt are pretty insidious things.Satan knows what tempts us and we being, human, do have to be on guard. The problem is that what leads each of us to fall away is a very individual thing. For some it is something obvious like lust but there are others who might have the fault of judging others. I think that this is the point of Romans 14. We all have strength and weaknesses and we should be respectful of the things that cause our brothers to stumble.

I think that the most dangerous attitude is to take one of believing that you won’t ever stumble or that there is no way that you, personally, could ever fall into doubt.

What is more dangerous is not believing the grace of God can save you from any pit you may stumble into.

 

[SolaChristo]

mercygate:

This is just the sort of thing that makes “verse tennis” completely inadequate. These are big issues which require a profound and knowledgeable reading of the whole of Scripture in the context of apostolic teaching.

I beleive all scripture is true therefore when there appears to be a counterdiction you must seek the resolution that the Holy Spirit provides.

 

[Orionthehunter]

SolaChristo:

I beleive all scripture is true therefore when there appears to be a counterdiction you must seek the resolution that the Holy Spirit provides.

I think that Mercy would agree that what you write above is true. However, she is also saying (in addition to the inerrancy of the Bible) that one can reach false conclusions if you take Scripture out of context. To get it in context, when reading the Bible, one must incorporate a broad understanding of Scripture in total as written plus the context in which it was written and the Oral Teaching Tradition incorporated into the text. Is this something that you disagree with or are we all on the same page?

 

[allisonP]

The protestant belief is that babies are innocent,and therefore not held accountable.

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Pope,

What happens if you are trully sorry for your sins, but you do not repent? You personally ask Jesus to forgive you, but you continue your sinful ways, what happens when you die?

If you are TRULLY sorry for your sins, you will not do that sin again. So your statement is contradictive.
Just like when you are a Christ Follower, but you don’t do what Christ ask you, you don’t follow Jesus path, are you accountable to be called Christian?

Fox

P.S. And why should you debate your fellow Protestants? To see who is right or not? Many people willingly said that we have the same God with Islam, yet we would love to debate to show that our brother Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Protestant are wrong. Nice.

 

[mercygate]

SolaChristo:

I beleive all scripture is true therefore when there appears to be a counterdiction you must seek the resolution that the Holy Spirit provides.

Exactly. You’re talkin’ like a Catholic.

But rather than individual interpretation based on individual personal intuitions which we may experience as “the Holy Spirit,” we see the Holy Spirit as working through the Tradition of the Apostolic Teaching through the Church. This Tradition includes determination of which writings comprise Scripture.

Orionthehunter summed it up in his post above.

 

[SolaChristo]

mercygate:

Exactly. You’re talkin’ like a Catholic.

But rather than individual interpretation based on individual personal intuitions which we may experience as “the Holy Spirit,” we see the Holy Spirit as working through the Tradition of the Apostolic Teaching through the Church. This Tradition includes determination of which writings comprise Scripture.

Orionthehunter summed it up in his post above.

We agree on this much. Where we would disagree is rules for interpretation and for the role of the Helper and the Paraclete in individual interpretation.
But these issues are not ones pertaining to salvation it is best to agree to disagree at this point.

 

[awalt]

Boy I love CA Live - I heard Jimmy Akin state another great thought that is pertinent to this discussion.

So assume you are someone that does not believe in the Catholic Church, and you are trying to discern the proper way to go re: “Once Saved, Always Saved”. You have two choices:

1. You can believe “once saved, always saved” is true. If you are correct, then no problem - you are in Heaven for eternity. IF YOU ARE WRONG, then you are doomed to Hell for all eternity. Can you say with 100% certainty that the theologians who say that verses contradict “Once saved, always saved” are wrong?

Choice two:

1. Assume “Once Saved, Always Saved” is false, and that you can do things to ruin your own salvation. If you are correct, you have spent your life trying to do what many believe the Gospel of Christ suggests us to do, and you likely end up in Heaven. IF YOU ARE WRONG, then you are still saved, and you spend eternity in heaven, albeit maybe you were needlessly living a little more like Christ than he really required you to.

Logically, which is the safer path? There is no downside to choice #2. Only arrogance causes one to choose Choice 1, as the only other benefit of that choice is being able to say in heaven to the Catholics, " ‘I told you once saved, always saved’ is true!". Worth risking an eternity in Hell for?

 

[SolaChristo]

awalt:

Boy I love CA Live - I heard Jimmy Akin state another great thought that is pertinent to this discussion.

So assume you are someone that does not believe in the Catholic Church, and you are trying to discern the proper way to go re: “Once Saved, Always Saved”. You have two choices:

1. You can believe “once saved, always saved” is true. If you are correct, then no problem - you are in Heaven for eternity. IF YOU ARE WRONG, then you are doomed to Hell for all eternity. Can you say with 100% certainty that the theologians who say that verses contradict “Once saved, always saved” are wrong?

Choice two:

1. Assume “Once Saved, Always Saved” is false, and that you can do things to ruin your own salvation. If you are correct, you have spent your life trying to do what many believe the Gospel of Christ suggests us to do, and you likely end up in Heaven. IF YOU ARE WRONG, then you are still saved, and you spend eternity in heaven, albeit maybe you were needlessly living a little more like Christ than he really required you to.

Logically, which is the safer path? There is no downside to choice #2. Only arrogance causes one to choose Choice 1, as the only other benefit of that choice is being able to say in heaven to the Catholics, " ‘I told you once saved, always saved’ is true!". Worth risking an eternity in Hell for?

How you can ruin your salvation is not believing, having faith in the God who is more than able to save you from confusion, besetting sin, attacks of the enemy, all hinderences and obstacles to your salvation!!!

 

[mercygate]

SolaChristo:

How you can ruin your salvation is not believing, having faith in the God who is more than able to save you from confusion, besetting sin, attacks of the enemy, all hinderences and obstacles to your salvation!!!

 

[exoflare]

This is what really gets me… The widespread Protestant belief that guidance from the Holy Spirit is nothing more than reading scripture yourself, and then claiming that the Holy Spirit has guided you. Apparently the claim is supposed to be enough proof in itself.

 

[deb1]

SolaChristo:

What is more dangerous is not believing the grace of God can save you from any pit you may stumble into.

Yes, God can save you. The Holy Spirit, I believe gives us guidance. But being human we do have the freewill to ignore the holy spirit and fall into the pit if we want to.

Let me give you an analogy.( I am bad at these so give me leeway ) As a teenager I knew a woman who refused to lock her doors. She was middle class and her house was built with locks but she swore that God would protect her and her family from all harm.I did not know her long enough to know if she remained safe. (I pray so)I do know that her reasoning defied the experience of many Christians. After all, not every woman who has been raped, child who has been abducted or house that has been broken into was from a non Christian home. Christians are as likely to be harmed as nonChristian. The fact of the matter is that God gave this woman the ability to protect her home, by simply turning the lock.

The same is true of our faith. God gives us the ability to guard our faith by doing such simple things, like praying. Just as the woman above ignored that bad things had happened to other Christians, die hard OSASers ignore the fact that there are Christians who do fall away from their faith.

I hope that made sense.

 

[SolaChristo]

exoflare:

This is what really gets me… The widespread Protestant belief that guidance from the Holy Spirit is nothing more than reading scripture yourself, and then claiming that the Holy Spirit has guided you. Apparently the claim is supposed to be enough proof in itself.

So you have never been guided by the Holy Spirit?
Would you like to be?

 

[SolaChristo]

deb1:

Yes, God can save you. The Holy Spirit, I believe gives us guidance. But being human we do have the freewill to ignore the holy spirit and fall into the pit if we want to.

Let me give you an analogy.( I am bad at these so give me leeway ) As a teenager I knew a woman who refused to lock her doors. She was middle class and her house was built with locks but she swore that God would protect her and her family from all harm.I did not know her long enough to know if she remained safe. (I pray so)I do know that her reasoning defied the experience of many Christians. After all, not every woman who has been raped, child who has been abducted or house that has been broken into was from a non Christian home. Christians are as likely to be harmed as nonChristian. The fact of the matter is that God gave this woman the ability to protect her home, by simply turning the lock.

The same is true of our faith. God gives us the ability to guard our faith by doing such simple things, like praying. Just as the woman above ignored that bad things had happened to other Christians, die hard OSASers ignore the fact that there are Christians who do fall away from their faith.

I hope that made sense.

Let me give you an analogy.
A person invites Christ into their life. It is as a teenager has a parent constantly following them around. When that teenager turns left when they should turn right the parent is there to tell them. If the teenager still turns left the parent is stlill there reminding them that the left turn was wrong, constantly showing why the right turn was the right course. Using every means of persuasion, every means of protection every means of comfort every means of correction the parent is always there to get the teenager on track. The teenager is rebellious and still persists on the left turn (the Christian who falls from their fairth?). God allows, the parent allows the consequences of the left turn decision to take effect. At some point the rebellious teenager/believer seees the folley of their ways and returns home (even if its on their deathbed). The prodigal son.

 

[catholic-rcia]

SolaChristo:

At some point the rebellious teenager/believer seees the folley of their ways and returns home (even if its on their deathbed). The prodigal son.

And also the thief on the Cross, me as well.

“The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. Going out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.’ So they went off. And he went out again around noon, and around three o’clock, and did likewise. Going out about five o’clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’ When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ When those who had started about five o’clock came, each received the usual daily wage. So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying, ‘These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’ He said to one of them in reply, ‘My friend, I am not cheating you. Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

 

[SolaChristo]

catholic-rcia:

At some point the rebellious teenager/believer sees the folly of His ways and returns home (even if its on His deathbed). The prodigal son.

And also the thief on the Cross, me as well.

AMEN!

 

[deb1]

SolaChristo:

At some point the rebellious teenager/believer seees the folley of their ways and returns home (even if its on their deathbed). The prodigal son.

This could happen, but it might not. Sometimes the best parents have kids that curse them. Because God loves us he gives us freewill and we do have the ability to reject God.

 

[SolaChristo]

deb1:

This could happen, but it might not. Sometimes the best parents have kids that curse them. Because God loves us he gives us freewill and we do have the ability to reject God.

sidroth.org/tvbroadcasts.htm

go to :October 10-16, 2005
Watch online: (Real Player) | (Windows Media)
Download: (Real Player) | (Windows Media)

Guests: Isaiah and Carol Reed
Subject: Former pimp and former prostitute who now love and serve God.

October 3-9, 2005
Watch online: (Real Player) | (Windows Media)
Download: (Real Player) | (Windows Media)

Guest: Isaiah Reed
Subject: Former pimp who was raised from the dead after being shot and stabbed.

These are just a couple of real life stories of how God is able:

Dont get caught up in the hypothetical, God is fully able to breakthrough all obstacles. We have a free will but God is constantly working fo His will in our lives only the most hard hearted will not subcomb after giving themselves to Him.