once saved always saved?

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SolaChristo said:
sidroth.org/tvbroadcasts.htm

go to :October 10-16, 2005
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Guests: Isaiah and Carol Reed
Subject: Former pimp and former prostitute who now love and serve God.

October 3-9, 2005
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Download: (Real Player) | (Windows Media)

Guest: Isaiah Reed
Subject: Former pimp who was raised from the dead after being shot and stabbed.

These are just a couple of real life stories of how God is able:

Dont get caught up in the hypothetical, God is fully able to breakthrough all obstacles. We have a free will but God is constantly working fo His will in our lives only the most hard hearted will not subcomb after giving themselves to Him.
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We are in agreement on this. God does work in our lives. I, myself, had a friend who turned to drugs and prostitution. She lost her two children, was incarcerated and entered an abusive relationship. Yet, she is now a Christian and going to school to be a nurse. In my own life, simply the fact that God’s grace led me to be first a Christian and then Catholic is miraculous. I’m not certain what in my posts made you think that I didn’t believe in the wonderous power of the Holy Spirit in people’s lives. I thought that we were debating the existence of OSAS not the power of God to transform lives.

I don’t get the sense that you fully believe in OSAS. You have to realize that if one person can make a decision, no matter how unlikely or rare, to turn from God then OSAS is not true.
 
Deb, I guess my response is they are the exceptions the prove the rule. It may not be 100% OSAS, but its pretty darn close (my opinion).
 
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SolaChristo:
So you have never been guided by the Holy Spirit?
Would you like to be?
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I am certain exoflare would say YES to your question, as would any of us. Happened just this morning when I was reflecting on John 6 in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. I never noticed before that it was NECESSARY for the ‘walking on water’ passage to come in between the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves and the Bread of Life discourse in order to demonstrate that the 12 would have an experience of Jesus’ Body that would allow them, however poorly, to accept the impossibility of the discourse that was to come. My flesh for the world? – “flesh” that walks on water is clearly something other than what we are used to in the ordinary run of life.

This was a hair-standing-on-end, scales-falling-from-the-eyes recognitin. I could kick this thread so far off topic by continuing with other instances of the Holy Spirit’s guidance that the moderators would never let me back on.
 
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SolaChristo:
Sometimes religion can get in the way of a personal relationship with God.
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Another clichéd fundamentalist slogan with no real meaning… do you have a point?
 
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SolaChristo:
Sometimes religion can get in the way of a personal relationship with God.
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When we go to school, we do things according to our professors terms. If he wants a paper on Science, we dont give him an excellent one on math and expect that he will accept it. And this is the same idea in all aspects of our lives, from school to work…to even our personal relationships with family and friends

But when it comes to God, all of a sudden its on *our * terms?
 
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Faith101:
But when it comes to God, all of a sudden its on *our * terms?
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Only according to the fundamentalist standpoint. Don’t take it too seriously.
 
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exoflare:
Another clichéd fundamentalist slogan with no real meaning… do you have a point?
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The point is that it has no meaning to you.
If you knew God it would have meaning. Since you dont, it has no meaning.
 
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SolaChristo:
The point is that it has no meaning to you.
If you knew God it would have meaning. Since you dont, it has no meaning.
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Based on what? You claim something, and therefore we all must accept it as true. This is the extent of fundamentalist belief.
 
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SolaChristo:
The point is that it has no meaning to you.
If you knew God it would have meaning. Since you dont, it has no meaning.
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This conversation has been very cordial and I have enjoyed the debate. But I don’t think that we should make judgements on each others stance with God. So far, there has been nothing said here that indicates that anyone participating in this thread is not a very good Christian. Can we just be nice to each other?😦
 
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deb1:
This conversation has been very cordial and I have enjoyed the debate. But I don’t think that we should make judgements on each others stance with God. So far, there has been nothing said here that indicates that anyone participating in this thread is not a very good Christian. Can we just be nice to each other?😦
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Deb, I agree.

the original post:----This is what really gets me… The widespread Protestant belief that guidance from the Holy Spirit is nothing more than reading scripture yourself, and then claiming that the Holy Spirit has guided you. Apparently the claim is supposed to be enough proof in itself.

My response:: So you have never been guided by the Holy Spirit?
Would you like to be?

My response was an attempt to cut through what I percieved as a misunderstanding of my position and the position of those who believe as I do.
The Holy Spirit is the promise of Jesus who was to be sent to all those who believe. Marie earlier responded how she felt led while reading a particular scripture passage. This is commonplace, common talk among those who have sought Gods guidance in their persuit of His word and in their lives. For people who have never had that experience it seems strange, illogical and hard to understand. Folks that have never experienced Gods guidance in thier lives will either want it—therefore my question or in their confusion attack those who claim it.

exoflares attack on my experience of being led by the Spirit results from a point of view that since we differ in theology that the Spirit can not be leading me (or other protestants) otherwise we would be Catholic. If we both start from the position of being led by the Spirit we can discuss how one is led one way and another another way and will come to points of agreement. If we start from seperate positons of one being led and another not understanding of how the Holy Spirit leads individuals then there are not those points of agreement. Am i making any sense?

Perhaps the most charitble response to exoflare and others in the furure would be no response at all, or a response the desert fathers used to use: “you know what you speak is true.”
In the future I will choose one of those two.
 
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SolaChristo:
If we both start from the position of being led by the Spirit we can discuss how one is led one way and another another way and will come to points of agreement. If we start from seperate positons of one being led and another not understanding of how the Holy Spirit leads individuals then there are not those points of agreement. Am i making any sense?

Perhaps the most charitble response to exoflare and others in the furure would be no response at all, or a response the desert fathers used to use: “you know what you speak is true.”
In the future I will choose one of those two.
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Another Deb here… I would disagree that anyone ever said you “COULD not be led by The Holy Spirit,” but rather in this instance, “MIGHT not be led by the Spirit.” I have been enjoying reading this thread but until now had nothing to add. I would not want to see it closed due to lack of charity either.

The question boils down to either once saved always saved is right or it is not right. (notice I did NOT say it is wrong.)

So how could the same Holy Spirit lead people to believe contradictory beliefs? Either it is right or it isn’t. What evidence do I have that you are in fact, led by The Holy Spirit when you say that it is? I know dozens (actually hundreds) of people who say it isn’t true. They also claim to be led by The Holy Spirit.

I would naively say that you are in fact led by The Holy Spirit when what you proclaim is in line with the Catholic Church. I firmly believe all people have a piece of Truth and all people CAN be led by The Spirit. As a Catholic I have more experiences and knowledge that says OSAS is not true.

Why should I believe any differently, especially when The Holy Spirit has helped bring me to this conclusion?
 
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LittleDeb:
Another Deb here… I would disagree that anyone ever said you “COULD not be led by The Holy Spirit,” but rather in this instance, “MIGHT not be led by the Spirit.”

…

So how could the same Holy Spirit lead people to believe contradictory beliefs? Either it is right or it isn’t. What evidence do I have that you are in fact, led by The Holy Spirit when you say that it is? I know dozens (actually hundreds) of people who say it isn’t true. They also claim to be led by The Holy Spirit.
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LittleDeb,

This is exactly what I meant. Thanks.
 
Littile Deb or Exoflare? Can either of you explain how this post adds to the discussion of OSAS?

This is what really gets me… The widespread Protestant belief that guidance from the Holy Spirit is nothing more than reading scripture yourself, and then claiming that the Holy Spirit has guided you. Apparently the claim is supposed to be enough proof in itself.

in our discussion prior to this point we exchanged scripture, hypothetical situations, parables each side trying to illustrate their point.

We got to a point in the thread where there appeared to be two scriptures counterdicting each other(BTW there are many verses that relate to OSAS). So here was an exchange:

**Quote:
Originally Posted by SolaChristo
I beleive all scripture is true therefore when there appears to be a counterdiction you must seek the resolution that the Holy Spirit provides.
Exactly. You’re talkin’ like a Catholic.

But rather than individual interpretation based on individual personal intuitions which we may experience as “the Holy Spirit,” we see the Holy Spirit as working through the Tradition of the Apostolic Teaching through the Church. This Tradition includes determination of which writings comprise Scripture.**
**
We agree on this much. Where we would disagree is rules for interpretation and for the role of the Helper and the Paraclete in individual interpretation.
But these issues are not ones pertaining to salvation it is best to agree to disagree at this point.
**

I guess it as this point that the questionable (on my part) post was made.
Was it an attack on me and my beliefs? unquestionably.
Was it an attempt to delve deeper in to the supbject of biblical interpretation? I dont see at as such.
We get back to my comment:**exoflares attack on my experience of being led by the Spirit results from a point of view that since we differ in theology that the Spirit can not be leading me (or other protestants) otherwise we would be Catholic.
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So does that mean there can be no discussion on any matters because as a protestant if I was truly led by God then I would be a Catholic and since Im not then I or any other protestant is not led by God? This is what it gets down to, so is this where we are?
 
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SolaChristo:
Little Deb or Exoflare? Can either of you explain how this post adds to the discussion of OSAS?

This is what really gets me… The widespread Protestant belief that guidance from the Holy Spirit is nothing more than reading scripture yourself, and then claiming that the Holy Spirit has guided you. Apparently the claim is supposed to be enough proof in itself.

in our discussion prior to this point we exchanged scripture, hypothetical situations, parables each side trying to illustrate their point.

We got to a point in the thread where there appeared to be two scriptures counterdicting each other(BTW there are many verses that relate to OSAS). So here was an exchange…
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I would presume exoflare made the above bolded statement since that is a common experience among Catholics. I myself made a similar statement when I asked WHY I should believe a person’s explanation of OSAS whom I don’t believe is (in that particular instance) being guided by The Holy Spirit.

By Catholic understanding there are hundreds of Scripture quotes that could point out how OSAS is not right. Since we take the entire Scripture in context, we do our best NOT to interpret any single section without numerous cross-references. (numerous being in the hundreds sometimes.) I, myself, am guilty of slinging Bible verses. When I do I try to stop. Any verse can mean anything. It is only in interpretation that there is any ground to stand on.

So that brings me back full circle:
“This is what really gets me… The widespread Protestant belief that guidance from the Holy Spirit is nothing more than reading scripture yourself, and then claiming that the Holy Spirit has guided you. Apparently the claim is supposed to be enough proof in itself.”

While the statement made had an unintentional effect of appearing as a personal attack, the problem remains. From me personally, not as an attack but as a legitimate question: I know all of the quotes you are referencing. Why should I (personally) believe your (personal) interpretation of OSAS is a correct doctrine? What authority do you have? Since you claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit (in this particular instance) I am supposed to accept that claim as fact?

I really, honestly mean no disrespect. Obviously, from reading your posts, you have been guided by The Holy Spirit on many occasions. My only question is why should I believe you correct on this topic? The scripture quotes cannot contradict and there is only One Holy Spirit to clarify apparent (or perceived) contradictions.

The Holy Spirit has led me to believe that OSAS is not a correct doctrine and those who believe it are having a misunderstanding of their own mind vs. the mind of God. Does God know right at this moment if I will be saved upon death? YEP! He’s God. Do I know at any given moment if I am “currently” saved? NOPE. I’m not God. Can I do something to change my status of saved upon death? YEP. I have free will to walk away at any moment. Just as all those we would love to bring to Christ can choose to run into Jesus’ arms at any moment. Let’s unite in doctrine so we can give them a clear message!
 
Yes, LittleDeb, you hit the nail on the head again. I don’t know how it was construed as a personal attack (my initial post, anyway) but that’s what it boils down to… There are lots of people that claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and yet they don’t all reach the same conclusion. Obviously the claim of being “personally” led by the Holy Spirit may or may not be true for any given person, but the claim alone is not sufficient evidence in itself.
 
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deb1:
This makes it sounds as if you don’t believe in OSAS.

When I was Baptist, the way OSAS was explained to me was that once you fully accepted Jesus into your heart, then there was nothing that you could do to expel him. If you were a true Christian, the Holy Spirit would guide you and keep you from doing any major sin(Although, confusingly enough the Holy Spirit didn’t same able to keep you from small sins). Also your faith would produce a change in you and you would want to do good works. The reason that you couldn’t expel Jesus from your heart was because as a new creation, you wouldn’t want to reject Jesus. If you did then you weren’t saved to begin with.

I don’t want to misinterprete the beliefs of others, so I hope that I explained that well enough. It was always a confusing theology to me.
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So if they were a true christian the holy spirit would protect the individual from doctrinal mistakes? Sounds like each protestant who believe in OSAS believes that he is infallible yet slam the Church for claiming to be infallible in certian situations.

Yet another contradiction within the protestant faith!
 
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mercygate:
I’m not sure I quite understand what you are saying. I’m thinking of Paul’s list of things that cannot separate us from the love of God:

“tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword . . . neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

One thing not on that list is sin.
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How about nor anything else in all creation, and don’t forget the fact of the death Christ died in which He paid the penalty for sin.
 
John Paul III:
So if they were a true christian the holy spirit would protect the individual from doctrinal mistakes? Sounds like each protestant who believe in OSAS believes that he is infallible yet slam the Church for claiming to be infallible in certian situations.

Yet another contradiction within the protestant faith!
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Protestants have a wide variety of belief. Some, like my sister who is Lutheran, do not believe in OSAS. Others believe in different versions of OSAS. I can only speak about what I was taught. As I took a more extreme route then my sister, what I believed was very different then her.

I am having difficulty wording this, so be patient with me. Some proponents of OSAS explain the existence of people who claime to be Christian at one point and fall away by saying that these people were never Christians to begin with. Even though they prayed and asked God into their hearts, either due to their own hard heart or some other factor, their salvation somehow didn’t take. I think that this is why some Protestants emphasis having a personal relationship with Jesus.(Not that we shouldn’t have a relationship with Jesus)

My nonCatholic friends are often surprised when I inform them that I found OSAS to be anything but reassuring. I was constantly doubting my salvation.
 
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