Hello Sandusky,
Just an innocent question, so please don’t take this the wrong way, but if this is true (to answer the question about babies and small children that die before accepting Christ)… then why is there such a problem from our Protestant brethren (some, not all) about infant Baptism? My three children have been Baptised and my in-laws have been very negativly vociferant about it.
Sin, my brother, is not a creation of God.
While someone who truly accepts Christ as their savior just before death is saved, we may not all be that fortunate to know when to anticipate death. It is exactly for this that Christ calls us all to persevere in our faith. Someone who makes a one-time profession of faith at an altar call, while it is a step in the right direction, must follow it up by continuing to the best of his ability to “walk as Jesus did.”
If what you say is true, then you deceive yourself. Thankfully, what you say is not what is taught in the Church or the Bible. Let’s see what St. Paul, somone who we can all agree is “accountable to be called Christian,” has to say:
If hating what one does is not being “TRULY sorry for your sins” what is? St. Paul teaches us here that he does those very things that he hates, the very things he is truly sorry for. Even though he does not want to sin, he, as a “Christ Follower,” keeps on doing it. In the same way, we too are imperfect and though we love Christ and desire to follow him more perfectly, we sometimes continue in sins that we hate.
I debate so that I may approach truth more fully and learn from others. I also hope to impart knowledge I’ve been blessed to receive through the Church and the Holy Spirit with my brothers and sisters from all walks of life.P.S. And why should you debate your fellow Protestants? To see who is right or not? Many people willingly said that we have the same God with Islam, yet we would love to debate to show that our brother Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Protestant are wrong. Nice.
Quatsch [/quote said:
Right again.
Knowing the time of one’s death has nothing to do with the knowledge that one is truly and forever saved.
Yes, the believer must persevere, and endure, and he will by God’s grace and promise.
The purpose of the judgment at death for the unbeliever is to condemn him. The purpose of the judgment at death for the believer does not have to do with condemnation, but with reward. For the believer, there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1). Everyone goes before Christ (2 Cor 5:10); what is determined at the believer’s judgment is the extent of his reward (1 Cor 3:12-15) which area of scripture you say points to purgatory, but it does not, rather it speaks to the eternal reward, or lack of eternal reward for the believer.
Please reconcile these two statements that I bolded. Sure look mutually exclusive to me.
I agree with you. It is through God’s promises that we have confidence in our salvation and it is only by his grace that we are given that salvation. God’s covenants, as they have been throughout history, are not one-sided. They require participation from us. In the new covenant, that participation is belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. And that belief is not a simple “yes I believe” said once with the heart, it is an in-depth “yes I believe” that our whole life should attest to. The way we live, the way we treat others, the way we act when we are alone, and everything in between.
I think the key to understanding this is in vv. 4-5. How many of us can truly say that we have received all these blessings. Everyone in this world, no matter what they do here, has a chance to come back to Christ if they leave and to be forgiven. Satan, however, knowing fully the glory of God and the “heavenly gift” chose, using his free will, to “fall away” and deny God. He, thus, can never be saved. We are not yet like him or the angels, though, and are not capable of instantaneously expressing our full and complete will and desire with full knowledge of everything we know. The chance we are given to express ourselves is our life, and someone who lives their life as a testimony to Christ, according to the promises of the New Testament, will be saved. Those who reject Christ and close themselves to God’s grace, whether it be through their words or actions, will not be happy on judgement day. It is not our position to judge any of our brothers but only to encourage them in the faith as we were taught by Christ.
No one but ourselves can lose our salvation. There can often be trying circumstances in life that test our faith. One example I find useful is the “wrongful” loss of a loved one. Perhaps they are killed in a car accident by a drunk driver and you, not understanding why a merciful God would allow this to happen, decide to rebel against God and deny Him and Christ. In times when persevering is the most difficult, it is so important to bear our own crosses just as Christ did. This person, whose faith is gone in an instant when it is easier to hate God than to trust in him through suffering, is in a dangerous position. We cannot know the state of their soul but if they lose faith in God it is a dire case.
The question is still on timing. You know right now what your eternal state will be but I don’t believe that is how it works. The way you state it is the only people who will be suprised at the judgement are non believers. This does not add up. The Pharisees were men who believed they were living the right way, according to the Laws of Moses and doing everything perfectly but Jesus kept condemning their actions. The judgement is not based on belief/unbelief but on sin and on the effect of sin on both believer and non-believer. I think where your conclusion is wrong is only non believers will go to hell. Remember the Pharisees.
Yes, Saul was changed and he never reverted back to his old ways of persecuting Christians. But he himself tells us in Romans that he battles with sin and has to continually rely on Christ for forgiveness and guidance. The problem with OSAS is that throughout the New Testament salvation is an on-going process, it is not a one-time thing!! One way we can see this by the mere fact that we have a Bible. The writers were not writing to non-believers to convert them but they were writing to believers to encourage them in their faith and to warn them of the dangers of falling away. Falling away is a danger!! Someone who believes in OSAS and lives their life according to someone who has been saved and follows Christ and keeps his commandments until the end, from what we are told in the Bible, will be saved. However, someone deceived by OSAS that believes they are saved because of a one-time event and does not lead their life according to Christ, from what we are told in the Bible, is perhaps in trouble.
True, however, he COULD have gone back to his former, pre-vision self.
Amen catsrus. As long as we live on this earth and have our free will we are subject to sin. Only after death are we made truly free and that freedom is the freedom from sin. OSAS does not free us from the consquences of our choices.
I second that!In Romans 7 (that which you’re referring to) Paul does reflect on the struggles of sin. If you read Romans 7:4., it states, “you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.” Why? Verse 4 continues, “so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.” Then Paul reflects back, “For while we were in the flesh”, what happened? “…the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.”
This is where I have to strongly disagree with you. “He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.” (Hebrews 9:12)