once saved always saved?

[Scotchamoe]

PART 2…

One way we can see this by the mere fact that we have a Bible. The writers were not writing to non-believers to convert them but they were writing to believers to encourage them in their faith and to warn them of the dangers of falling away.

I see what you’re saying here, but it’s not quite accurate. Let me ask you this… How many of the epistles Pauline or otherwise are disciplinary? How many of Jesus’ parables are disciplinary? (Don’t just think in terms of “you’re bad you need discipline”) Instructionary… whew, I knew I’d find a word that I could use. Disciplinary or instructionary…how many? Why?

The reason I ask, the epistles might have been written to instruct, discipline, encourage, warn and edify believers, but don;t you think that the Word of God is written for everyone? How many have picked up a Bible and just started reading and…?

Falling away is a danger!!

No disagreement here.

SEE PART 2… to continue…

Someone who believes in OSAS and lives their life according to someone who has been saved and follows Christ and keeps his commandments until the end, from what we are told in the Bible, will be saved.

This statement I had to read 3 times, I think the thought you were trying to convey got lost. It reads as if you agree with OSAS, but I think I understand what your saying. I do disagree on one thought in your statement… “and lives their life according to someone who has been saved…” My friend, I cannot receive salvation by living my life according to someone who has been saved. Why? You and I could wrap that up in one statement, “Prove to me that you’re saved.” Who could do that? Only God Almighty and that person knows the status of their soul. We could convince the world of a lie, but you (or I) and God know the truth.

However, someone deceived by OSAS that believes they are saved because of a one-time event and does not lead their life according to Christ, from what we are told in the Bible, is perhaps in trouble.

This is the bare root of the misconception that most opponents of OSAS hold to. If anyone believes that they are saved due to, how you termed, “a one-time event” and does not lead their life according to Christ is not truly saved. That’s my point.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (emphasis mine)… “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.”

If your life is not changed, if you continue in the way you once were before you “accepted” (think of me putting up quote fingers)Christ then chances are, you aren’t. This is not judgement of one to decide their eternal outcome, it’s simply “fruit inspecting”. How are we able to tell who we are to associate and who we aren’t to associate, as Christians? By what comes out of a man. The fruit of the Spirit… is it in them or not? How do we know?

Galatians 5:22-23… “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness , faithfulness, gentleness, self-control;”

Quatsch, from your response I can see that you know what it is. The Church is not to be conformed to that of the world so that the enemy can dictate what things of the Church are right and wrong.

OSAS is not a 1 time thing, it’s a continuous thing. If one is saved, then they are saved and do the things that Christ has directed. If they’re not, they don’t.

What’s the difference between a Christian and a true Christian? The fact is, there is none. You either are or you’re not.

Thanks again for your reply.

In Christ,
Scotchamoe

 

[jim1130]

SolaChristo:

The point is that it has no meaning to you.
If you knew God it would have meaning. Since you dont, it has no meaning.

Ow! Talk about a closed mind!

 

[Scotchamoe]

Hey Catsrus and ncgolf, thank you both for your replies. Catrus wrote…

True, however, he COULD have gone back to his former, pre-vision self.

But guess what? He didn’t. That’s what makes it true. We are free to choose and make our own decisions. That’s what God intended. He wants us to want to love Him, not have to love Him.

Look what Jesus said, “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” (John 14:21)

Look what Jesus says 2 verses later… "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.”

As harsh as this is going to sound, and I truly apologize in advance and I mean it, this is in love… please don’t shoot the messenger.

I’m sorry for your family members situtation (leaving her family)…

To this day, though she hasn't set foot in a church in years and has never repented of her "choice", she still believes she is "saved" because of that long ago "experience" and that she "loves Jesus in her heart".

When I read this my spirit was troubled because her “experience” (as you say) was not true salvation. Why? Did it change her and move her toward God? Did she continue in her ways before? Those that use it the excuse “God knows my heart”, is using God for just that very reason… an excuse.

God Is who He Is, not who we can make Him. And anyone that uses Him as a crutch to do what it is that they want to do, has to check their relationship with God.

I’m sorry, I really don’t mean to offend you one bit, I won’t turn from the Truth of the Gospel of Christ.

ncgolf wrote…

As long as we live on this earth and have our free will we are subject to sin. Only after death are we made truly free and that freedom is the freedom from sin.

I agree with you ncgolf, we are subject to sin, but we are directed not to be ruled by it.

Romans 12:21…“Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
1John 5:4…“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world --our faith.”

OSAS does not free us from the consquences of our choices.

I agree here too. Every one of our choices have consequence. Romans 6:23 covers both aspects…“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Thanks you guys.

In Christ,
Scotchamoe

 

[jim1130]

SolaChristo:

At my Fathers house there are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you.

some of us will get 4 car garages and swimming pool in the back others just small cottages.

Does this mean there are levels of Heaven? I am not trying to sound sarcastic, but am asking a legitimate question. Does this mean that Mother Theresa will be superior to me in Heaven (not that I would disagree)? Or will we all be equal under God?

 

[Scotchamoe]

Does this mean there are levels of Heaven?

Paul spoke of the 3rd heaven in 2 Corinthians 12. that’s a tough one to me, but I look at it this way… I would rather have a shoebox in heaven than a mansion on earth.

It doesn’t matter who has what in heaven, you won’t be jealous nor envious of them anyway.

Rev 21:4…“and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

In Christ,
Scotchamoe

 

[jim1130]

Scotchamoe:

Paul spoke of the 3rd heaven in 2 Corinthians 12. that’s a tough one to me, but I look at it this way… I would rather have a shoebox in heaven than a mansion on earth.

It doesn’t matter who has what in heaven, you won’t be jealous nor envious of them anyway.

Rev 21:4…“and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

In Christ,
Scotchamoe

LDS say there are three Heavesn, too, with the lowest level for the scoundresl of the world, such as Stalin, Hilter, Manson, and probably Catholics, will level two for LDS members who were not GREAT LDS members and then level one for the creme-de-la-creme of LDS members.

 

[deb1]

ncgolf:

Amen catsrus. As long as we live on this earth and have our free will we are subject to sin. Only after death are we made truly free and that freedom is the freedom from sin. OSAS does not free us from the consquences of our choices.

.

Could you expound on this? According to OSASers salvatioin produces a change drastic enough in a person’s soul to make them unable to fall away from God. Correct? Yet, the Holy Spirit doesn’t change the person completely because the person still sins. This has always confused me. If OSAS does not free us from the consquences of our choices and we still sin then how does one not have the freewill to step away from GOd?

 

[deb1]

jim1130:

Does this mean there are levels of Heaven? I am not trying to sound sarcastic, but am asking a legitimate question. Does this mean that Mother Theresa will be superior to me in Heaven (not that I would disagree)? Or will we all be equal under God?

I have talked to many Baptist that beleive this. The concept is that the OSASers who were saved but didn’t mature in their faith will just barely get a reward but the ones who did the hard work will get the bigger reward.

 

[deb1]

Scotchamoe:

I see what you’re saying here, but it’s not quite accurate. Let me ask you this… How many of the epistles Pauline or otherwise are disciplinary? How many of Jesus’ parables are disciplinary? (Don’t just think in terms of “you’re bad you need discipline”) Instructionary… whew, I knew I’d find a word that I could use. Disciplinary or instructionary…how many? Why?

I am not certain what you are asking. Are you asking how many verses of Paul’s letters contain advice on how to live? I don’t know why we would just focus on Paul and not the whole new Testament, but all right.

Paul does give instructions on what to do and not do as a Christian. Is that what you are asking?

One of the biggest dangers that I see in OSAS is not that the beleivers think that they can commit any sin and go to heaven. I see doubt as their biggest challange. When you witness a fellow Christian fall and you know that person was every bit as sincere in his faith as you then it is hard not to doubt your own salvation. If the only explanation for the person falling was that they must not have been saved in the first place but you know that they were as warm toward their faith as you, then it is hard not to wonder if your salvation actually ‘took.’ Does that make sense?

 

[jim1130]

deb1:

I have talked to many Baptist that beleive this. The concept is that the OSASers who were saved but didn’t mature in their faith will just barely get a reward but the ones who did the hard work will get the bigger reward.

Kind of like the lottery when you pick only 5 of the 6 numbers correctly compared to the person who picks all 6 numbers correctly. Yuo still get a piece of the lottery money, but not as significant as had you picked ALL the numbers correctly.

 

[jim1130]

I think what is called into question is the legitimacy of the commitment of the person professing OSAS. I don’t think that we can doubt the sincerity of someone’s statement; however, certainly some people can make the commitment a lifelong pursuit whereas others may only be caught up in the moment then, without the stimulus of the revival atmosphere, may lapse into casualness. No matter what, I think that the statement is only the beginning, not the end, and that combined with works (as proof and verification) and perseverance (showing commitment) salvation may be assured, NOT guaranteed. What I have heard over and over is that only those people who are saved, via OSAS, are allowed to sin.

 

[Quatsch]

Before I reply to the whole post, which I may not have time to do tonight, I’ll clear up that poorly worded sentence. It didn’t come out how it was supposed to (I had to read it a few times myself, lol)…I should’ve proofread it before submitting the reply. It was meant to read like this:

Someone who believes in OSAS and lives their life according to Christ and keeps his commandments until the end, from what we are told in the Bible, will be saved.

-Q

 

[sandusky]

Orionthehunter:

from sandusky:

Knowing the time of one’s death has nothing to do with the knowledge that one is truly and forever saved.

Yes, the believer must persevere, and endure, and he will by God’s grace and promise.

from Orionthehunter:

Please reconcile these two statements that I bolded. Sure look mutually exclusive to me.

In Jn 10, Jesus says that His sheep know His voice, and He knows them and they follow Him, and they will never perish, and no one will take them out of His hand.

In Mt 10, 24, and Mk 13, Jesus says that the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Christ does not view my two statements as mutually exclusive.

 

[Scotchamoe]

Hey Deb1, Thanks for your reply… You wrote…

According to OSASers salvatioin produces a change drastic enough in a person’s soul to make them unable to fall away from God. Correct? Yet, the Holy Spirit doesn’t change the person completely because the person still sins. This has always confused me. If OSAS does not free us from the consquences of our choices and we still sin then how does one not have the freewill to step away from GOd?

I’ll say this, if anyone thinks that they are “unable” (your word) to fall away from God refuses to accept their sinful nature as passed down from Adam and Eve.

It’s not that you *can’t * turn, it’s that you do not want to turn away from God. Our sin nature is still with us, because it’s passed down, but your new Spirit man is in control. It’s your decision… Do you want to follow God or not? Do you want to live according to His will or not?

Once saved, always saved does not mean that you cannot make the decision to fall away from God. That’s just it… it’s a decision.

Whether you’re an OSAS advocate or not, if anyone, I repeat, ANYONE uses the precept that once you’re saved then you can do anything you want to and still get to heaven is misguided and wrong.

Once saved, always saved is a principle, not a doctrine. You are either saved and do whatever it takes to live your life according to the Word of God (even making mistakes along the way as we are not perfect) and repenting of those mistakes and asking in Godly sorrow for forgiveness or your under the misguided precept of thinking that you can do whatever you want because you have the “fire insurance”.

Most Christians today want Jesus as their Savior, but not as their Lord. The OSAS position of not being able to fall out of the saving grace of God because you once accepted Him, is breaking the 2nd Commandment by making for yourself a “custom god”.

I hope that helped.

In Christ,
Scotchamoe

 

[sandusky]

ncgolf:

The question is still on timing. You know right now what your eternal state will be but I don’t believe that is how it works. The way you state it is the only people who will be suprised at the judgement are non believers.

And non-believers who believe that they are believers.

ncgolf:

This does not add up. The Pharisees were men who believed they were living the right way, according to the Laws of Moses and doing everything perfectly but Jesus kept condemning their actions.

Yes, the Pharisees believed that they were living the right way. Many people believe that they are living the right way, but that is not sufficient to gain salvation. Salvation is always by faith (Rom 1:17). The Pharisees faith was misplaced—their faith was in themselves, and their deeds—the faith that justifies is faith in Christ; IOW, Christ paid the penalty for your sins, because your account, has never had, and will never have, sufficient funds to pay the penalty for your sins.

ncgolf:

The judgement is not based on belief/unbelief but on sin and on the effect of sin on both believer and non-believer. I think where your conclusion is wrong is only non believers will go to hell. Remember the Pharisees.

Here is what John 3:18 says:

John 3:18
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The primary judgment/condemnation is unbelief in Christ.

There are many who say they are believers, but they are not; that is James’ point in 2:14ff which you mistakenly think says that works save you; they don’t.

That same point is made by the Lord in Mt 7.

In vv13 and 14, He speaks about the “broad” and “narrow” way. On both of those ways are people who claim to be believers. We know that because of what Jesus says they will say; in vv22 and 23, those on the broad road are living a good life, going to church, prophesying in Jesus’ name, casting out demons in His name, and doing miracles in His name, but they are on the broad road of faith and trust in their actions and works, instead of being on the narrow road of faith, that trusts in Christ’s work on the cross alone, as the Gospel demands.

 

[Quatsch]

I don’t understand where the conflict between faith and works is. We are taught that faith is completed by works. If you love someone but are not willing to do anything for them, will they believe that you truly love them? If someone loves Christ but they are not willing to follow his commandments and show their love through good works, would Christ truly feel loved?

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone (James 2:24). What we do is of course inspired by our faith in Christ. For if we have faith we will be inspired to do good works. If the love is true we will want to do something about it. That is how we can know if we belong to Christ and why we can be confident about our salvation.

 

[sandusky]

Quatsch:

I agree with you. It is through God’s promises that we have confidence in our salvation and it is only by his grace that we are given that salvation. God’s covenants, as they have been throughout history, are not one-sided. They require participation from us. In the new covenant, that participation is belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. And that belief is not a simple “yes I believe” said once with the heart, it is an in-depth “yes I believe” that our whole life should attest to. The way we live, the way we treat others, the way we act when we are alone, and everything in between.

I agree. It is certainly more than saying I believe and then living however you want to live. OSAS as understood and discussed on this forum is not what scripture teaches.

Quatsch:

The main danger I see in OSAS philosophy is that for those who do not understand how important it is to “walk as Jesus did” it can be a grave source of deception. This is especially true for new converts when they are taught this, I think.

Nothing taught in scripture is a source of deception. The source of deception is the sinner’s heart and his lusts. Anything taught in scripture should be carefully and considerately taught to new believers.

 

[Quatsch]

Scotchamoe:

I see what you’re saying here, but it’s not quite accurate. Let me ask you this… How many of the epistles Pauline or otherwise are disciplinary? How many of Jesus’ parables are disciplinary? (Don’t just think in terms of “you’re bad you need discipline”) Instructionary… whew, I knew I’d find a word that I could use. Disciplinary or instructionary…how many? Why?

The reason I ask, the epistles might have been written to instruct, discipline, encourage, warn and edify believers, but don;t you think that the Word of God is written for everyone? How many have picked up a Bible and just started reading and…?

I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at with disciplinary versus instructionary verses (say that 10 times fast!) in the Bible, both teachings
I agree that the Word of God, of course, is written for everyone (it does concern all of mandkind, after all). The apostles, when they were writing, though, had no idea that one day their writings would be considered inspired and form what we have as the New Testament. They were writing to communities of believers and in some cases individuals. When understanding salvation through the Bible, it is important to take the audience into account. And the audience was people who believed in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and our Lord and Savior. When people were warned about falling, it was not those who were not saved that were warned, but those who were saved.

Other responses to follow…

-Q

 

[Quatsch]

Scotchamoe:

Quatsch:

The problem with OSAS is that throughout the New Testament salvation is an on-going process, it is not a one-time thing!!

This is where I have to strongly disagree with you. “He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.” (Hebrews 9:12)

Yes, Christ obtained eternal redemption for us through his one sacrifice. However, his one sacrifice is eternally being offered to the Father. " Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:25) His intercession to the Father is ongoing and will be ongoing as long as their is sin and forgiveness.

Scotchamoe:

I’m afraid you’ll have to show me Biblical proof that salvation is an ongoing process. Salvation isn’t, maturity in Christ is.

Salvation is not a process, maturity in Christ is. Paul’s redemption came (as does ours) when Christ is accepted for who He is into our lives. Paul did not receive salvation later on in life. Paul’s salvation came on his way to Damascus. It was there where he made his decision to accept Christ or reject Him (although this is not specifically stated in the Biblical text).

In response to your question, here is some teaching from an article found on catholic.com complete with Scripture references:

Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is &quotcast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of “once saved always saved.”

If you read through the discourse in John 15 that the article mentions, it is clear Jesus is talking to those who are in his love and is warning them to remain in his love. Remaining in Christ’s love is not a one-time thing, it is a process which takes our entire life to complete.

On another note, I just wanted to take a second to thank you for the civil discourse we’ve been having. We have a lot of common ground, I think, and I feel that some of our differences are due to semantics. Anyway, it’s been a refreshing conversation so far and I’m enjoying it.

Blessings,

Q

 

[deb1]

Quatsch:

On another note, I just wanted to take a second to thank you for the civil discourse we’ve been having. We have a lot of common ground, I think, and I feel that some of our differences are due to semantics. Anyway, it’s been a refreshing conversation so far and I’m enjoying it.

Blessings,

Q

I was just thinking the same thing. It is nice that we can have a civil discussion without either side getting angry or accusing the other side of not being Christian.