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JoeyWarren
Guest
Don’t step in to that trap. Anyone can and will say that the Book of Romans is addressing the church of Rome corporately, not individually. etc, etc, etc.
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apophasis
Guest
But you quoted Phil. 2:12 stating that Christians are to “fear and tremble.” What is it then that makes you “fear and tremble?”
It would be erroneous indeed to think that ALL of Scripture applies to you.
The verse states nothing at all about you maintaining your salvation, but instead it is God who was at work in them both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13). This stands to reason since Scripture states that it is God Himself who saves the believer, it is not the believer who saves himself:“For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”(Titus 3:3-5)“Fear and trembling” would of course be a natural anxiety for one who believes he/she must maintain their own salvation. But the truth is God saves those who trust in His Son. He has not left the alleged “maintenance” to men. Such an idea must conclude that the blood of Christ does not have the power to cleanse a man of all sins, and salvation ultimately rests on self-works of righteousness and one’s own acts of obedience rather than the one act of obedience of the Righteous One:“So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to
all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.” (Rom 5:18-19)Men are saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith; the believer being now “in Christ” is kept by grace, as well, to the glory of God (see Rom. 5:1-2 where Paul speaks of “the grace in which we stand”).
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Faith makes you saved but does not guarantee your place in heaven. Jesus said that not all that proclaim him Lord will go to heaven. Mere believing is just the starting point. To have faith(believe) fully is to follow all the commandments issued. James points out in several places that faith without works is dead. If your faith does not produce good works then your faith is dead and never was in the first place. In essence your faith was just lip service.
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deb1
Guest
Perhaps I am simply in a contentious mood today but I am finding it a bit annoying to be reasked a question that I answered in post 76. As I am an incrediably lazy person please reread post 76 so that I don’t have to retype the same answer twice. I hate to have to do unneccesary typing.
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deb1
Guest
When we are saved our soul is cleaned and we receive sanctifying grace that assist us but we also maintain free will and can turn our back on salvation.
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deb1
Guest
Our faith must be active.
Here is an analogy. Say a man marries a woman and tells her everyday, I love you. Yet, all he does is sit on the couch, watch tv and completely ignore all her request. When he talks to her, it is only about himself and he continually belittles her efforts to please him. Would any of us say that he really loved his wife despite his declarations? Probably not. That is because we know that love is not simply an emotion, it is an act. You can’t separate love from the works that it produces in you.
The same is true of faith. Real faith produces a change and works. Faith is not simply belief, it is not simply emotion…if that is all someone’s love for God is then they have a dead faith. You show your faith through the works that you do.
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sandusky
Guest
Deb, not all of scripture is about the one in Christ. All of scripture is profitable, and able to make one wise to salvation, and is given for our instruction (2 Tim 3; 1 Cor 10), but it is not all applicable to the N.T. believer. And your statement, “we must follow not just the portions that agree with our theology or make us feel good…” applies equally to you. How many times have you read of someone on this forum who, like yourself, has come out of Protestantism and into the RCC make remarks about the feel-good effect of the Eucharist, and confession, and praying to Mary, and having a body of leaders who guides them infallibly in the correct understanding of God? I have read many such statements here. And those things that I have mentioned, the Catholic is hard-pressed to prove from scripture as the Catholic himself admits that those are not “explicit,” teachings but, rather, they are “implicit.”
That the believer “once saved” is “always saved” is explicitly taught in scripture.
He is not born of his own will, but of God’s (Jn 1:12-13); that is because he is helpless to do anything from his own power to save himself, and because he is of himself unable to please God, and that is because he hates God, and is naturally hostile toward God (Rom 5:6; 8:6-8; Jas 4:4); and so, his salvation rests entirely with God who does the choosing (Eph 1:4), and the justifying (Rom 8:33), and the working (Php 2:13), and the glorifying (Rom 8:30).
Because of God’s power, and faithfulness, the believer is said to have eternal life as a present possession (Jn 5:24); futher, the believer possesses, according to Peter, “an inheritance imperishable, and undefiled, that will not fade away, reserved in heaven,” (1 Pet 1:4), and that he will attain that eternal inheritance, not because he has any power in himself to keep it, but because the inheritance, and the believer are “kept by the power of God” (1:5). And much more.
I gave up the RCC as a teen for one reason: I wasn’t good enough to earn my salvation. As I read and enter discussions on this forum, I am struck at how much Catholics now sound like evangelicals/protestants; I can hardly tell the difference; but there is a difference, and it is in the way in which we define the mutual terms that we employ in defining our beliefs.
The Council of Trent Sixth Session, Chapter XVI, on the fruits of justification says:
“…to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits…nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life.” (emphasis mine).
We see that after initial justification, subsequent justification comes by meritorious works.
What Trent says above, speaks for itself. I have heard argument after argument on this forum, and many of them weighty, that Catholics do not believe that their works earn salvation. It seems to me that Trent believes otherwise: works are necessary to justification for the Catholic, and Trent says, the Catholic is considered, "by those very works…to have truly merited eternal life.”
There are only two religions in the world:
- The religion of Divine Accomplishment: God has done it all.
- The religion of Human Achievement: God has done some; I must do the rest.
Scripture teaches #1.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Excellent analogy!
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JoeyWarren
Guest
You believe in the Trinity?
That doctrine is not explicit in the bible. The best you have is a verse that mentions all three.
Here is a doctrine that Catholics and most protestants believe:
That is taught no where in the bible either explicitly or implicitly.
As to OSAS doctrine. It is not eplicit. One verse does not constitute explicitness when nearly 50 other verses dictate otherwise.
IE: I am saved and I live a good gospel life, but prior to my death I go and kill someone with malice and then a policeman comes to me an kills me. Am I still saved and going to heaven?
Take a look at Sam Kennison, he was a pentecostal pastor. He was saved. Did he stopped being saved when he chose to follow the hollywood life of a Comic? OSAS types would argue that he never was saved in the first place, even he was a pastor spreading the gospel.
Is Sam Kennison in hell or heaven?
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sandusky
Guest
JoeyWarren says:
JoeyWarren:
IMHO, that is because JoeyWarren is
Because of his frustration and confusion, JoeyWarren attacks Sam Kennison :tsktsk:
JoeyWarren’s :banghead: :tsktsk: have put Sandusky to 
JoeyWarren asserts:
Sandusky thinks JoeyWarren is mistaken; the basis that General Revelation ended with the last apostle is found in Hebrew 1:
There are other parts of scripture that can prove the end of General Revelation as well.
The attitude of the second part of JoeyWarren’s post is one of frustration :banghead:
IMHO, that is because JoeyWarren is
Because of his frustration and confusion, JoeyWarren attacks Sam Kennison :tsktsk:
JoeyWarren’s :banghead:
:tsktsk: have put Sandusky to
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JoeyWarren
Guest
oh man, you have wounded me! 
I forgive you not of your sin!
I forgive you not of your sin!
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apophasis
Guest
Real faith does produce a change, but that change is produced by the Holy Spirit who now indwells the believer, regenerates him and seals him until the day of redemption. The believer is saved by grace through faith unto good works.
The faith that saves is not “active,” but rests, “believes in,” what God accomplished for the believer through His Son on the cross. In other words, he rests in the finished work of Another.
The problem with your analogy is that you’re claiming the husband who sits on the couch, watches TV, and ignores all her requests is no longer married. You’re claiming that God is constantly performing spiritual annulments based on the works, or better, non-works of the believer. But Paul emphatically states that one is saved strictly by GRACE through FAITH, it’s a gift of God, and not at all based on works. So if one is saved apart from works, how is it God would annul his salvation based on works, or the lack of? I’m not saying a true believer doesn’t work, he was saved unto them, but you’re saying his salvation is, ultimately, based on works, salvation being probationary, based on those works. Like the husband sitting on the couch.
I keep asking you what causes you to “fear and tremble” because you’re one who said believers must “work out” their salvation in such a state. Conclusion, if you’re in a state of fearing and trembling then you must not be saved. Right?
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apophasis
Guest
Well, based on what Sandusky has posted here on the official teachings of the Catholic Council of Trent, it seems you don’t quite understand the belief system of the religion to which you’ve converted:
I think you need to study your own doctrines and compare them with what is revealed in Divinely inspired Scriptures.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Sandusky and Apophasis must be desciples of Martin Luther.
Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ** NO!**
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? HE DOES NOT KNOW THAT FAITH IS DEAD WITHOUT WORKS!
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
AND HERE IS MY FAVORITE
**Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? **
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Martin Luther almost succeeded in removing this book from the Bible…
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JoeyWarren
Guest
And the last message of Jesus all about works.
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
You shall be judged by your works which was a byproduct of your faith. If you had no works, then your faith is dead and therefore you never had it to begin with. Your punishment will then be as of the Goats.
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
You shall be judged by your works which was a byproduct of your faith. If you had no works, then your faith is dead and therefore you never had it to begin with. Your punishment will then be as of the Goats.
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sandusky
Guest
IMO, you miss the point of the passage. Is the subject of the passage works? Or, is the subject faith?
The subject of the passage is faith, in fact the subject is “said faith” (v18). So the discussion of the passage with respect to works is the probative value of the works, and not the salvific value of works, as works have no salvific value (Rom 3:20).
Give an eye to the verbs in v18, ie., “show me,” and “I will show you.” See also the same “vision oriented” verbs in vv22, 24: “you see,” and “you see.” James speaks here of works as evidence of true faith; he is not speaking of works as meriting salvation.
So when someone says to you, “I have faith,” and you see no evidence of that faith by accompanying works, you can be certain that faith is not real faith. OTOH, if works are present in the one claiming to have faith, you can be certain that faith is real.
As James says in v22, “You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected
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