Once Saved Always Saved...

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The Calvinist flavor of OSAS could be called, “Once Elect, Always Elect”.
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It might be clearer to say “Once Regenerate, Always Saved.” Even we Catholics would agree that the elect (viz., those who are glorified) are always known to be elect by God, and no one can jump from being elect to non-elect. But regenerated people can (and presumably do) throw their salvation away.
 
Matt16_18 said:
* As a catholic, I’d like to know what scripture verses you would use as a response to the Once Saved Always Saved position?*

At the other extreme of the spectrum of OSAS belief lies the “Arminian” flavor. In this system, free will is not denied as it is in the Calvinist system. “Arminian” OSAS is the heresy of antinomianism as put forth by Johannes Agricola.
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You are incorrect. Arminian believers, such as Methodists, Pentecostals, the Church of Christ, Anglicans, and Lutherans, the Restoration Churches, Free-Will Baptists, some Evangelicals, and others, believe that one can lose his salvation. They do NOT believe in OSAS. Some do believe that one must apostacize before losing salvation, but most believe, like Catholics do, that serious sin will cause a loss of one’s justification.
 
Particular redemption or Limited Atonement

Southernrich is right on this issue. One huge problem is when you get outside of the concept of OSAS you run into a paradox. Most if not all religions agree that we cannot do anything save ourselves, that it is Gods actions that result in our ultimate salvation. Yet many religions believe that we can do things that will cause ourselves to not be saved. So you run into this roadblock of, “I can choose not to do something that will lead to my damnation, therefore I have some control over whether or not I am saved.” This leads one to think that our salvation is dependant in at least some sense on “works” even if those works are not to lead us to salvation but to keep us from not achieving salvation.

C. S. Lewis described his own conversion something like:
…dragged into the Kingdom of heaven kicking and screaming, eyes darting left and right for some way of escape.

It was God’s will alone that caused C. S. Lewis to become a Christian. So if this is the case, does God choose to only save certain people or do we have some control over whether or not we are saved.

It is a paradox but I do not know if it is one that we need to spend a great deal of time pondering because with God anything is possible.
 
shibboleth

It was God’s will alone that caused C. S. Lewis to become a Christian.

It was not God’s will ALONE that caused C.S. Lewis to become a Christian. C.S. Lewis had to make the free will choice to cooperate with the sufficient grace that was given to him by God.

Many people have the opportunity to become Christians, and yet they freely choose to reject Christianity. It is not God’s fault that they refuse to conform themselves to His perfect will. We can choose to defy God’s perfect will, and if we do, it is because we made the choice to reject the sufficient grace that God offers all men to be obedient to his perfect will.

“Irresistible grace” that destroys our free will is not something that exists.
 
Southernrich
  • You are incorrect. Arminian believers, such as Methodists, Pentecostals, the Church of Christ, Anglicans, and Lutherans, the Restoration Churches, Free-Will Baptists, some Evangelicals, and others, believe that one can lose his salvation.*
I understand that, hence my quotes around the word “Arminian”. Arminius would reject the flavor of OSAS that many fundamentalists Protestants claim that he taught. The Southern Baptists that I know all claim to believe in OSAS, and they claim to be Arminians, not Calvinists.
  • Some do believe that one must apostacize before losing salvation, but most believe, like Catholics do, that serious sin will cause a loss of one’s justification.*
The loss of one’s justification before God would bring a person into a state worse than that person was in before he or she became a Christian. No justification, no salvation. A Christian can be unrepentant for the mortal sin of murder and not be an apostate. This happens every day. For example, many Christian women commit murder by willfully choosing to have an abortion without ever committing the sin of apostasy.

… no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15
 
Matt16_18 said:
shibboleth

It was God’s will alone that caused C. S. Lewis to become a Christian.

It was not God’s will ALONE that caused C.S. Lewis to become a Christian. C.S. Lewis had to make the free will choice to cooperate with the sufficient grace that was given to him by God.

Many people have the opportunity to become Christians, and yet they freely choose to reject Christianity. It is not God’s fault that they refuse to conform themselves to His perfect will. We can choose to defy God’s perfect will, and if we do, it is because we made the choice to reject the sufficient grace that God offers all men to be obedient to his perfect will.

“Irresistible grace” that destroys our free will is not something that exists.
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I was not presenting my view but C.S. Lewis’. Thank you though for the additional information.
 
Coincidentally, I just happened to be listening to one of Fulton Sheens Life is Worth Living recordings when I came upon this powerful statement.

“If the sin of Adam had so many repercussions in EVERY human being that has ever lived, shall we deny that the Incarnation of our Blessed Lord has had a greater repercussion? Can it be that the sin of one man shall have greater affects and disorder in human nature than the Incarnation of the Son of God has in ordering all of humanity?”

Christ brought salvation to ALL humanity and it is up to us to find that salvation in HIM.

– Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=iq_3544.ra

God Love You…
 
Isn’t the whole thing with venial sin a kind of OSAS notion. You can’t lose your salvation simply by commiting venial sin–in that it’s like the protestant arminian OSAS
 
Mr. Ruggerio:
Isn’t the whole thing with venial sin a kind of OSAS notion. You can’t lose your salvation simply by commiting venial sin–in that it’s like the protestant arminian OSAS
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No, venial sin has nothing to do with once saved, always saved, but with the degree of severity of a sin.

Arminian Protestants don’t accept OSAS, which today is a Baptist/Fundamentalist concept. Arminians believe in free will, and therefore believe that one, of his own free will, can lose his justification through sin. They use the same apologetics arguments we do concerning the conditionality of salvation.
 
Read CCC #1863. It draws a distinction between venial and mortal sin that goes way beyond being simply the degree of severity you pose.

VS does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace. MS does. See CCC #1861. My point is that, given this, OSAS parallels the Church’s doctrine re VS. It’s food for thought and, perhaps, a way to approach the Pro with some common ground.
 
I wanted to let you know about a little nuance I heard in Assemblies of God circles. The pastor there said OSAS, but if you fall into serious sin, you were never really saved in the first place. So it seemed that people were getting saved all the time to make sure that they were really saved. So much for eternal security…

My problem with this was - the A of G thought that there was no distinction between mortal and venial sins, so would the comission of ANY sin mean that you had never been saved? Very confusing theology.
 
iguana27

I wanted to let you know about a little nuance I heard in Assemblies of God circles. The pastor there said OSAS, but if you fall into serious sin, you were never really saved in the first place. So it seemed that people were getting saved all the time to make sure that they were really saved. So much for eternal security…

“Never really saved in the first place” – yes, that does pretty much destroy the concept of “eternal security”. How can one be really really sure, I am positive this time, that I am “saved”?

It is understandable that this befuddled variation of OSAS should exist. The “Calvinist” OSAS teaches that the “elect” have no free will. Only a true sociopath can actually believe that they are incapable of committing sin. The antinomian variation of OSAS teaches that a “saved” man can commit any sin that he feels like committing with the assurance of salvation in the bag. Only a true psychopath can believe such a thing.

Unlike sociopaths and psychopaths, most Christians have functioning consciences, and until they utterly destroy their consciences, they will always have conflict with the contradictions that are implicit in any type of OSAS belief. Hence the questioning if “I was ever really saved in the first place” when a “saved” person commits mortal sin. It is a question caused by a distressed conscience, and such guilt is a good thing too, since it can lead to a repentant heart and reconciliation with God.

For wickedness is a cowardly thing, condemned
by its own testimony;
distressed by conscience, it has always exaggerated
the difficulties.
Wisdom 17:11

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them.
Romans 2:14-15

By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1Timothy 1: 19-20
 
I think they (the fundies) reconcile the two–persistence of personal sin and the assurance of OSAS–in this way.

When they sin, they are no longer “walking with Jesus,” so to speak, or it’s also said that they are “no longer in fellowship with Jesus” or other similar phrase. But they have not lost their salvation per se.

Since sins commited after the OSAS salvation do not jeopardize one’s salvation, the impact of sin is to “hurt Jesus’ heart,” in much the same way as a close friend is hurt when betrayed. (of course sin also has a temporal aspect to it as well the consequences of which should also lead the person to want to return to fellowship with Jesus) But Jesus is still their friend. At a certain point the guilt through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, causes them to reconcile (my word, not theirs) with Jesus and again return to their walk with the Lord.
 
Mr. Ruggerio

At a certain point the guilt through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, causes them to reconcile (my word, not theirs) with Jesus and again return to their walk with the Lord.

The hardcore among the antinomian OSAS believers will tell you to your face that a “saved” man could die as a unrepentant, God hating Satan worshipper – and still enter heaven. When the antinomian fundamentalists say that there is no sin that could make a “saved” man lose his salvation, that is exactly what they mean - no sin, period, end of discussion. “No sin “ includes unrepentant mortal sin (which of course the antinomian fundamentalists deny exist since unrepentant mortal sins would cause a “saved” man to be damned for all eternity, which said to be impossible under any circumstance imaginable).

Those who confess antinomian OSAS have never explained to me exactly what God would do with an unrepentant Satan worshipper in Heaven. There is a belief among many of the antinomians that the quality of life the “saved” lead on earth will result in rewards in Heaven. As best I can figure, the “saved” man that died as an unrepentant, child molesting, God hating, serial rapist does not get a very large mansion in Heaven. Perhaps he gets a rundown trailer in the seedy part of Heaven where all the rest of the unrepentant backsliders live.
 
Chris W:
So, the branches are those people who “have been saved” in OSAS theory. But we hear that branches can be removed from the Vine and thrown into the fire.

I then ask the question, How can this be explained by the OSAS theory? If OSAS is true, then the branches could never be removed.

…there’s my two cents worth.
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In addition to all the other posts, I do like this too! Wow - the vinve and branches parable is so rich. I’ve heard Marcus Grodi use it to explain about the Eucharist. I’m loosly paraphrasing, but what does it mean to abide in the parable of the vine and branches? We could guess or assume many things, but why not look at His own words? See John 6:56.

Your explanation of OSAS using that same parable shows me how rich it really is! Thanks to all…
 
Jennifer

… what does it mean to abide in the parable of the vine and branches? We could guess or assume many things, but why not look at His own words? See John 6:56.

Good verse to use to discuss the meaning of “abide”!

The parable of the vine and the branches clearly contradicts the assertions of the antinomian flavor of OSAS. That parable teaches that the branches (the Christians) must abide in the vine (Jesus, the eternal life of the Christians), and that the branches can be cut off from the eternal life that the vine represents.

Another argument that concerns the “abiding” of the God in the Christian can be developed from Paul’s teaching that the body of the Christian is God’s temple.

The Temple of Jerusalem is an Old Testament type that finds its fulfillment in the antitype of the New Testament (the body of the Christian). The Temple in Jerusalem could be defiled by abomination, and that abomination left the temple desolate (uninhabited). See Daniel 12:11 for one example in the OT of the abomination that makes desolate the Temple. Since God would not inhabit a defiled temple in the OT, it is obvious that Paul is saying that deadly sin such as sex with a prostitute will also defile the temple of the body. The the defiled temple becomes desolate, and God will destroy the Christian that has made his temple desolate.

Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.
1 Cor. 3:16-17

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body.
1 Cor. 6: 15-18

The “temple made desolate by abomination” argument is a powerful one that few antinomian fundamentalists have ever heard.
 
Revelation 3:5
He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

1 Cor 15:1-2
Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast – unless you believed in vain.

brethren
Paul is writing to Christians. This is true of most if not all of his exhortations.

**if **
If Christians are assured of salvation, and cannot lose it, why the conditional “if”. “if you hold fast” Paul is telling the Christians they will be saved if they hold out until the end.

According to Robert Sungenis in his book Not by Faith Alone every book in the NT besides Philemon “in some waay or other suspends the outcome of our eternal destiny based on the duration and dgree of our faith and obedience.”

This is a short list of the Scriptures.
Matthew 24:13 he who endures to the end will be saved.

John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and wither; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

**Galatians 5:19-21 **The acts of the sinful nature are obvious…I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Note: Many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists deny Christians can do the sins Paul lists. Galatians 5 disproves that. First of all, he is writing to Christians. He accuses them of sinning. He isn’t refering to some hypothetical non-christians here. He is telling them they are the ones sinning.

**2 Timothy 2:12 **If we endure we will also reign with him. If we disown him he will also disown us.

Note: Some who teach “Once saved always saved” use the verse Hebrews 13:5 “…I will never leave you nor forsake you…”
In 2 Timothy it says “if we disown him” Jesus will never leave us, but we can certainly leave him.

I hope this helps. Let me leave you with Revelation 3:11 I am comming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

God Bless
 
Several times I have heard a caller on a talk show quote 1 John 5:13. ’
" I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life." and stressed the word KNOW several times.
Although I have never heard it answered this way, in my mind I would wonder … What does he think THIS means? Does he apply the word only to the sentence and not the whole letter?

St julie
 
" I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."

Many OSAS fundamentalists simply don’t understand what John means by eternal life. In his mind, eternal life is a contractual guarantee. I have heard way too many times the above verse quoted, and then the argument that eternal life can’t be lost, because if it could be lost, it wouldn’t be eternal.

But eternal life can be lost. Jesus Christ is our eternal life, and we can lose the indwelling of Jesus by committing mortal sins such as murder.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life – the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us …
1John 1:1-2

Any one who hates his BROTHER is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1John 3:15
 
:o “Once saved always saved.” If anything sounds like Calvinist nonsense it is that pentecostal phrase with a lutheran attitude. Why do some Catholics love to digest into their ideology fundamentalist ideas? Nonsense!No one can say they are ALREADY “saved.” As human beings, we won’t know for sure UNTIL we are before God’s throne if we are “saved” or not. What pride and arogance:banghead: when people not only believe for sure that they are saved, but then look DOWN on another person and pose the main fundamentalist NON Catholic question: "are YOU saved’?:yawn:
 
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