One brave women who said NO to Muhammed.

[lyrikal]

**lyrikal, further to my above post, do you know that Jesus mentioned the killing of the prophets in the Bible NT gospels…? He named only one or two but he included many between them. Please reply. When the matter is available (proof) then why are you asking about a proof fromt he quran? please clarify.

If you do not know about the comments of Jesus then I will post them.
**

You said Paul was killed because he was a false prophet.

I showed you many verses from the Quran that talk about prophets being killed. I asked you, does that mean that they are false prophets too?

You’re right, Jesus did mention Zachariah. He was a prophet. They killed him. According to your logic, he was a false prophet.

Please explain your illogical and inconsistent reasoning.

Is it possible for a true prophet to be killed? If so, how come we can’t say that St. Paul was a true apostle that got killed?

Another thing, St. Paul wasn’t killed by the Jews. He was killed by the Romans. Not because he was a false prophet, but it was more of a political reason. Are you trying to tell me that the Romans were doing God’s will?

By the way, it doesn’t matter whether the Quran tells us which prophets were killed. What matters is that it mentions that there were prophets who were killed. So does that mean that those who the Quran calls prophets are really false prophets because they were killed? Please explain.

 

[cathopologist]

To me all christians are heretic except you.What do you say?

**
He is a Catholic. If you call (a practicing) Catholics heretic(s), then all Catholics are heretics according to your logic. He is definitely not an Arianist.
**

I am not any heretic. I do not follow the orthodox Mullas blindly. that is all. Otherwise, i am quite well as a very preaceful Muslim, more peaceful than those muslims who consider me a heretic.

I don’t deny you maybe a good Muslim - despite your diatribe and horrible understanding of Christianity. But are you really a Muslim when orthodox Islam shuns your sect?

 

[Psalter]

inJesus. That is why you have many more divorces in the christians. The reason is that marriage in your system is stronger union. That is why it breaks so quickly…

Oh ok…that makes sense.

 

[Psalter]

dzheremi, I am trying to tell you that the rate of divorce is much more in the christian majority counrty. Maximum.

** Monogamy is not un-natural. I did not say monogamy was un-natural. But your refusal of divorce is due to mis-understanding Jesus. It sent you on the un-natuarl path. Divorce was there in the Judaic law. That law from same God. Then not allowing remarraige to a divorced lady is un-natural.

Polygamy had been allowed by God in previous times. How could it become a sin so soon? See your un-natural religion?**

Praying to Mecca was not required in previous times either; how could it become a sin not to pray to Mecca so soon? And I know a lot of Muslims who practice sex outside of marriage, so your statement that they don’t is utter nonsense.

 

[dzheremi]

It is all made up story that men in Islam marry due to the beauty and lust.

It is as Sister Amy apparently wrote it, and you yourself agreed that she was right! If either party is allowed divorce because they are no longer attracted to their spouse, then how can you say that it is not a matter of beauty and lust?

I could not understand about your definition of adultry. Muslims do not perform any sex outside marriage. So that cannot be adultry.

Of course…it cannot be adultery if “marriage” is re-defined to include whoever the man should like to have sex with!
In Christianity, marriage is not a vehicle for “legal” sex, but a means by which a man and a woman “become one” in heart, mind, and life…at least this is the ideal to which we aspire.

There is no need to reply to any baseless accusations. You have accused Islam about baser instincts.

I have not accused Islam of anything that Islam itself has not proposed as legal. It IS a baser instinct that tells the man “I want as many attractive women as I can have”. Christianity gives us guidelines that show us that we should strive for more than this incessant desire. We are to sublimate all of our desires to the will of God, and in the Bible His will with regard to marriage is that we practice monogamy (see Genesis 2:24).

Rather Islam teaches Muslims to go for spiritual progress.

I have no doubt that it does, but in other avenues (not this one).

And ther eis absolutely no spiritual matte rin christianity. No uplift, no hygene.no clean food , intake.

You don’t know what you are talking about. I am not even sure if I can call you a liar, since in order to lie you have to have some regard for the truth to begin with, and I don’t believe that you do.

remember what goes in must come out.

And you remember Matthew 15:11, where Jesus says: **“It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” **

Sonce you eat the flesh of the swine which Jesus did not eat, then youcannot have any spiritual achievment.

I do not eat pork. I find it distasteful on a personal level. It has nothing to do with its ritual uncleanliness. Other Christians may eat pork to their heart’s content. Good for them.

Jesus did not eat pork. He was a devout Jew. He also said the quotation above in Matthew 15:11, and that is what I follow, as I myself am not a Jew.

You people cannot go to any higher level unless you abstain.

A “higher level”? I was unaware that you are now a Buddhist, Planten.

But seriously…read the quote above, and think about seriously. What does more to defile a man? Will the only thing that God records of your life be that you abstained from pork?

But it is upto you. Do as you like. You cannot lead the mankind in religion or religious matters.

On this point I absolutely agree with you. I cannot lead anyone in religion, let alone all of mankind. If that is what you think Christianity is about, then there is little hope of this conversation ever helping us to understand one another.

 

[cathopologist]

And I know a lot of Muslims who practice sex outside of marriage, so your statement that they don’t is utter nonsense.

Many Moroccan and Algerian women have claimed they practice anal sex before marriage, so they can still call themselves ‘virgin’ on their nuptial night. I don’t think they understand what ‘virginity’ means.

 

[lyrikal]

Planten, here is how I see you arguing things:

“The reason why 2+2=4 is because 4=2+2”

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

Many Moroccan and Algerian women have claimed they practice anal sex before marriage, so they can still call themselves ‘virgin’ on their nuptial night. I don’t think they understand what ‘virginity’ means.

may Allah guide them , Ameen.God says in Quran not **to come near to **adultery.

It’s not allowed for us to even shake hand with the opposite sex . If what u wrote is true then they committed a major sin , must repent sincerely ; otherwise on the last day they will have to stand in front of God as sinners.

 

[swariffin]

dzheremi, I am trying to tell you that the rate of divorce is much more in the christian majority counrty. Maximum.

** Monogamy is not un-natural. I did not say monogamy was un-natural. But your refusal of divorce is due to mis-understanding Jesus. It sent you on the un-natuarl path. Divorce was there in the Judaic law. That law from same God. Then not allowing remarraige to a divorced lady is un-natural.

Polygamy had been allowed by God in previous times. How could it become a sin so soon? See your un-natural religion?**

It is all made up story that men in Islam marry due to the beauty and lust. I could not understand about your definition of adultry. Muslims do not perform any sex outside marriage. So that cannot be adultry. But what the maximum christians are doing nowadays is clear case of adultry.

**There is no need to reply to any baseless accusations. You have accused Islam about baser instincts. Rather Islam teaches Muslims to go for spiritual progress. And ther eis absolutely no spiritual matte rin christianity. No uplift, no hygene.no clean food , intake. remember what goes in must come out. Sonce you eat the flesh of the swine which Jesus did not eat, then youcannot have any spiritual achievment. You people cannot go to any higher level unless you abstain.

But it is upto you. Do as you like. You cannot lead the mankind in religion or religious matters.
**

Dear Planten,

Look at the divorce rate in Indonesia, the highest population of Muslims in the world, and much much much more Muslims compared to your home country. What is the majority of divorcee in Indonesia? Surprise… it is the muslims.

Why is that so??? One reason is statistic. 10 out of 100 in percentage is larger than 1000 out of 1 million. But, in reality, there are 1000 divorcee in one party as opposed to just 10 in the opposite party. There are 100 times more widowers and even more fatherless children from that 1 million population.

The second reason is??? Surprise… it is the secular law that Indonesian adopt. In Islamic country where sharia law is applied, no question about low divorce rate, since women has no right to call for a divorce. So, no wonder that divorce law is low in Islamic countries.

If the Catholic law is enforced, there would be no divorce at all. The RCC never ever authorize any legal marriage. Even the Pope has no power to separate a legally married couple in the RCC.

 

[planten]

You said Paul was killed because he was a false prophet.

I showed you many verses from the Quran that talk about prophets being killed. I asked you, does that mean that they are false prophets too?

**I have understood your question now. It means that bible says afalse prophet will be killed. The Quran also says about Muhammad that if he was a false man of God he would have been killed. What you mean is that it is alright but I should not use that as a logic for Paul.

Th writings of bible and Quran are there about the false ones, but we should not use them. If that is what you mean then please tell me. Or you deny that false prophet gets killed.??
We will lokk into this problem further.**

You’re right, Jesus did mention Zachariah. He was a prophet. They killed him. According to your logic, he was a false prophet.

** It is not entirely my logic. The verse Deut 18:20 is there too. Otherwise what is the meaning of Deut 18:20??**

Please explain your illogical and inconsistent reasoning.

** I said we will look into it. Either we are not understanding the verse 18:20 or the verse is meaningless. Verse is not meaningless. It is our understanding that may be wrong.**

Is it possible for a true prophet to be killed? If so, how come we can’t say that St. Paul was a true apostle that got killed?

That matter will be seen after understanding verse 18:20. It is better that you please tell the meaning of that verse now. For Paul I have other reservations too.

Another thing, St. Paul wasn’t killed by the Jews. He was killed by the Romans. Not because he was a false prophet, but it was more of a political reason. Are you trying to tell me that the Romans were doing God’s will?

You have given me some good clue. Youa are right here. We will consider this important point of yours too.

By the way, it doesn’t matter whether the Quran tells us which prophets were killed. What matters is that it mentions that there were prophets who were killed. So does that mean that those who the Quran calls prophets are really false prophets because they were killed? Please explain.

**That is also right. But please let me know the meaning of the verse Deut 18:20. What you understand by that? Thanks.

No need to discuss anything else right now. I will then make my reply.
**

 

[planten]

It is as Sister Amy apparently wrote it, and you yourself agreed that she was right! If either party is allowed divorce because they are no longer attracted to their spouse, then how can you say that it is not a matter of beauty and lust?

**** I know the advice of the prophet about marriage is:

1. They should see one another (bride and groom, so that they have nothing to dislike each other.)
2. A man marries a lady for three purposes. i.e A. her Beauty, B. Her property (wealth), C. Her religious good ness, love of God.

The prophet soon said" I advise you to choose the third option."

Now what have you to say about it. It is the complete truth, is it not? And can you bring anything the equal of that from your book? I am sure there is not a word about it except “they be One.” That is not enough to describe anything.****

Of course…it cannot be adultery if “marriage” is re-defined to include whoever the man should like to have sex with!
In Christianity, marriage is not a vehicle for “legal” sex, but a means by which a man and a woman “become one” in heart, mind, and life…at least this is the ideal to which we aspire.

**Your definition is wrong. So I will not discuss with you on that definition. And your bible does not teach anything. Please quote all you know about amrraige business that Jesus described. There will be nothing.

You have a metaphoric sentence “so they become one” Then you had to add from yourself " in heart , mind and life". Why is that? You are floating on thin ice**.

I have not accused Islam of anything that Islam itself has not proposed as legal. It IS a baser instinct that tells the man “I want as many attractive women as I can have”. Christianity gives us guidelines that show us that we should strive for more than this incessant desire. We are to sublimate all of our desires to the will of God, and in the Bible His will with regard to marriage is that we practice monogamy (see Genesis 2:24).

** Who said “I want as many attractive women as I can have?” You are making up things. We are also advised to marry only One and chose the best religious lady only. I do not know what you are trying to impose on the Islam.

Where does church (Jesus) teach you to submit all your desires to the will of God? Where it says in bible that God taught you monogamy? Was God not the same who taught earlier people polygamy? Is the God now changed or you people are changing the will of God?**

I do not eat pork. I find it distasteful on a personal level. It has nothing to do with its ritual uncleanliness. Other Christians may eat pork to their heart’s content. Good for them.

That means you had tasted ita nd did not like it. Whereas others are enjoying it. You do not eat Pork because it is not an order forbidding you to eat Pork. It is just your own wishes that you do not like it. It means youcan have your own habits in the matters of eating.

Jesus did not eat pork. He was a devout Jew. He also said the quotation above in Matthew 15:11, and that is what I follow, as I myself am not a Jew.

Jesus did not eat Pork because he was a Jew. But he allowed you to eat Pork even though he was a Jew and a prophet and a God all at the same time. I cannot believe that he allowed any such thing. he just told something good to you all. But you mistook it for doing wrong things. you should follow Jesus in everything. Some aspects of his life are well known. I will be with you.

A “higher level”? I was unaware that you are now a Buddhist, Planten.

But seriously…read the quote above, and think about seriously. What does more to defile a man? Will the only thing that God records of your life be that you abstained from pork?

On this point I absolutely agree with you. I cannot lead anyone in religion, let alone all of mankind. If that is what you think Christianity is about, then there is little hope of this conversation ever helping us to understand one another.

** I feel that you have made the post purposely long so that I cannot post a reply**.

 

[planten]

Planten, here is how I see you arguing things:

“The reason why 2+2=4 is because 4=2+2”

** lyrikal, And your theory is 1+1+1+=1
Please come out with your problems one by one only. But see to your bible before objecting to anything. Thanks**.

 

[planten]

Dear Planten,

Look at the divorce rate in Indonesia, the highest population of Muslims in the world, and much much much more Muslims compared to your home country. What is the majority of divorcee in Indonesia? Surprise… it is the muslims.

Why is that so??? One reason is statistic. 10 out of 100 in percentage is larger than 1000 out of 1 million. But, in reality, there are 1000 divorcee in one party as opposed to just 10 in the opposite party. There are 100 times more widowers and even more fatherless children from that 1 million population.

The second reason is??? Surprise… it is the secular law that Indonesian adopt. In Islamic country where sharia law is applied, no question about low divorce rate, since women has no right to call for a divorce. So, no wonder that divorce law is low in Islamic countries.

If the Catholic law is enforced, there would be no divorce at all. The RCC never ever authorize any legal marriage. Even the Pope has no power to separate a legally married couple in the RCC.

It may be so. Youbelomg amongst them.

 

[dzheremi]

1. They should see one another (bride and groom, so that they have nothing to dislike each other.)

What do you mean by “see each other”? Is it about how they look?

1. A man marries a lady for three purposes. i.e A. her Beauty, B. Her property (wealth), C. Her religious good ness, love of God.

Why is their religious belief LAST? That’s no good…also, it says nothing about her intellect, ambition, etc.

The prophet soon said" I advise you to choose the third option."

That’s good.

Now what have you to say about it. It is the complete truth, is it not? And can you bring anything the equal of that from your book? I am sure there is not a word about it except “they be One.” That is not enough to describe anything

Actually, the book of Ephesians has a lot of guidance in this area, and Matthew, and Genesis. Ephesians 5:22-33 is possibly most famous in this regard, but there is much more, if you actually look for it.

Your definition is wrong. So I will not discuss with you on that definition. And your bible does not teach anything. Please quote all you know about amrraige business that Jesus described. There will be nothing.

It is not MY definition. The American Heritage dictionary defines adultery as “Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse.” So you make sex with multiple “wives” lawful to make sure that a man cannot commit adultery, and then brag about how adultery is only the problem of the Christians, because Muslims don’t do it. How completely delusional and disgusting.

And, as I described above, there is actually a lot in the Bible describing how marriage should be. I am not going to quote for you everything in the Bible about marriage, because there is a lot and you are not actually interested, or else you would have already found many verses yourself.

You have a metaphoric sentence “so they become one”

Metaphoric in a sense, yes, but also what actually happens in successful marriages.

Then you had to add from yourself " in heart , mind and life". Why is that? You are floating on thin ice

Because I wanted to emphasize that it is not a matter of legalizing sex for pleasure, as you seem to think it is. Of course you have a problem with that…it makes your idea of marriage look really pathetic by comparison.

Who said “I want as many attractive women as I can have?” You are making up things.

Can you read? I wrote that this is what men’s baser instinct tells them, not that anyone literally says that! The point is that for Muslim men, they are allowed to indulge that instinct by “marrying” multiple partners. Christians, while they may still have the same instinct, are not so allowed. This is one of the reasons why we find divorce very distasteful: If a man (or woman) simply jumps from one marriage to another at will, it is indulging this instinct instead of treating marriage as the sacred mystery it is. It is saying “Well, I am done with this person now, and I don’t want to work on my bond with them, so it is time to move onto the next.” This is NOT a good attitude.

We are also advised to marry only One and chose the best religious lady only.

Yes, and thankfully most Muslims do not practice polygamy. But the fact that it is made lawful is still problematic.

I do not know what you are trying to impose on the Islam.

Nothing. I am not imposing anything on Islam. I am explaining the problem I have with supposedly divinely-sanctioned polygamy that Islam offers its adherents.

(continued below)

 

[dzheremi]

Where does church (Jesus) teach you to submit all your desires to the will of God?

Jesus himself is the greatest example, and He says in Matthew 22:35-38 that we are to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind. This is the greatest of all the laws. This is complete submission to the will of God by putting Him above EVERYTHING, in all instances. Following God in willful submission is the greatest thing anyone can do.

Other examples of submission to the will of God in the Bible:

1 Peter 1:17
Proverbs 23:7
1 Samuel 15:22-23
James 4:7
Acts 5:27-29
Matthew 26:36-39
Philippians 2:5-16

etc.

Where it says in bible that God taught you monogamy?

It is in the verse I previously quoted for you, from the book of Genesis.

Was God not the same who taught earlier people polygamy? Is the God now changed or you people are changing the will of God?

I could ask you the same thing with regard to making polygamy legal…

Jesus’ teaching on marriage in Mark 10 deals with these sorts of objections. He rejects the pharasees’ understanding of the law, instead insisting that from the beginning of creation, man and woman were created to be paired as one (as that is how God created them!). You can read it yourself, if you like:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:1-12;&version=49;

That means you had tasted ita nd did not like it. Whereas others are enjoying it. You do not eat Pork because it is not an order forbidding you to eat Pork. It is just your own wishes that you do not like it. It means youcan have your own habits in the matters of eating.

Indeed, that is exactly what it means. I explained this to you in the last post.

Jesus did not eat Pork because he was a Jew. But he allowed you to eat Pork even though he was a Jew and a prophet and a God all at the same time. I cannot believe that he allowed any such thing. he just told something good to you all. But you mistook it for doing wrong things. you should follow Jesus in everything.

Correction: Jesus is not a mere prophet of God, but True God from True God!

You are free to believe or disbelieve whatever you like. I will follow Jesus’ teaching on this subject.

I feel that you have made the post purposely long so that I cannot post a reply

No. It is long because there are a lot misconceptions on your part to clear up. If you would stop assuming that you know more about Christianity than the people who actually practice it, I would not post nearly as much.

 

[cathopologist]

may Allah guide them , Ameen.God says in Quran not **to come near to **adultery.

It’s not allowed for us to even shake hand with the opposite sex . If what u wrote is true then they committed a major sin , must repent sincerely ; otherwise on the last day they will have to stand in front of God as sinners.

Well this is what i read from a Muslim majority forum. The claim came from Moroccan and Algerian guys - both parties condemning the girls for sleeping with smugglers from Africa and what-nots.

I don’t know what the rest of the stories were, since most part of their posts were in Algerian.

Anyway, why is it ha’raam for Muslims (perhaps in your country) to even shake hands with the opposite sex? Muslims here do not practice such a custom.

 

[Psalter]

** lyrikal, And your theory is 1+1+1+=1
Please come out with your problems one by one only. But see to your bible before objecting to anything. Thanks**.

No, our “theory” is that 1x1x1=1.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Please ladies and gentlemen, this is your last warning to stay on topic and remain charitable in your posts.

Thanks for your cooperation

God bless-

Rachel

 

[Sister_Amy]

Anyway, why is it ha’raam for Muslims (perhaps in your country) to even shake hands with the opposite sex? Muslims here do not practice such a custom.

I don’t think it makes much sense to let men I don’t know touch my body at all, especially deliberately like by shaking my hand.

Men I know find it to be more respectful towards women to not shake hands with them.

And Muhammad himself (pbuh) refused to shake hands with women he wasn’t related to. (Even for taking an oath from them.)

 

[cathopologist]

I don’t think it makes much sense to let men I don’t know touch my body at all, especially deliberately like by shaking my hand.

Men I know find it to be more respectful towards women to not shake hands with them.

And Muhammad himself (pbuh) refused to shake hands with women he wasn’t related to. (Even for taking an oath from them.)

If it was a hug, then i can understand, but handshakes? Seriously Amy, even the Muslim women of Singapore don’t have problems with shaking the hands of any man. It does not implicate anything intimate or sexual.

Most of all, aren’t you an American? I thought handshakes with the opposite sex are quite the norm there. Heck, its the norm here also.