One correct religion with the Truth (part 2)?

[Servant19]

Unfolding is one thing, Contradiction is another.

You cannot say the doctrines of Christianity are true. You don’t build upon our doctrines but rather you seem to reject them entirely. How for instance is it unfolding when we have Christ, depicted as God, creating the universe, being the same yesterday today and forever, being the one to whom every knee will bow, then in the next revelation (Muhammad) abjectly denying Jesus is God and those that say it are in error? (Surah 5:72)

Dear friend, have you looked at who the two circumstances you present are addressing??

In order to unfold, one has to assess what the current understanding is within the population being addressed.

In Arabia, idol worship was pretty bad, so in His wisdom God decided to send a Prophet that rejected ALL FORMS of worship to anybody or anything other than the Spirit of God (“God is Spirit”)

The similarities can be drawn within the climate of Hinduism where the population, too, worshipped all manner of idols. In that circumstance, God sent a Messenger in the form of the Buddha to destroy all concepts of God and worship that which is within (which is now known as “the God found within all of us”)

Jesus being worshipped as God created an understanding that God has an intimately “personal” aspect, yet the Spirit aspect of God which was asserted in Islam was less accentuated in Christianity.

In order to unfold, the personal, spiritual, external and internal aspects of God are given specific emphasis depending on how far the population being addressed has strayed from the Truth.

This is unfoldment…

That is not building on it. But as if it weren’t confusing enough, you bahai proudly proclaim that Jesus was God, whatever that means. But then you proclaim all the manifestations God whatever that means. It’s difficult to tell whether you have a polytheism or monotheism.

Again, please be aware that there are several aspects of God, which are not ALL necessarily elaborated in the Bible too deeply (but are elaborated more so in Catholic mysticism later on) and are not ALL elaborated too deeply in the Quran. Baha’i Scripture encompasses all these aspects and offers complete explanations of these realities.

For example, God is a personal God. He answers each and every prayer. This is common Christian thought.
He also (and this is touched on in some of the works of St Gregory of Nyssa, for example) is a very impersonal, distant God, where it is said that " the way that leads to knowledge of the Divine Essence is inaccessible to thought." (Sermons on the Beatitudes (Sermon 6))

These aspects are sometimes emphasised more or less depending on what aspect needs to be unfolded

It would be one thing, for the Christian religion to say certain things, and not have the quran completely overturn what is said regarding the Christian religion but merely add to it, but that’s not what has happened at all.

I agree with you

But have you considered that a personal God is a direct contradiction to an impersonal God?
That God is Spirit is a direct contradiction to God is a physical human being?

These are all aspects.

Baha’u’llah openly declares “I am God”, and then openly declares “Lo! I am coarser than clay”

We now live in an era where we can now “more” fully understand these aspects as a coherent whole. Baha’is never claim this is the “fullness of Truth” because we know that there is always more to learn. It never ends…

Can you affirm, the Godhead, the trinity is limited to the father son and Holy spirit? Can you even affirm the trinity? (Don’t say you agree with the trinity while maintaining your own. See I still don’t trust you to not redefine the words in my sentences of the questions I ask).

Baha’is affirm the “threeness” using the analogy of the Sun, mirror and the rays of light. This was elaborated beautifully by St. Basil, and yes, I know he was a Trinitarian, but when He starts talking about Prototypes and Archetypes, as represented by the Sun and a mirror, then he was encroaching Baha’i theology and truth. Maybe he didn’t know it, maybe he did, we will never know

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[rinnie]

Hello there dear rinnie,

I pray that you are well and joyous

I understand where you are coming from. I think the place we all need to go is towards an understanding of the WORD, especially in reference to the Prologue.

Baha’is believe firmly that the Word is WITH God, but not ACTUALLY God.

What is your understanding of the Word being WITH God and at the same time the Word IS God?

They seem to be mutually excluding statements do they not?

IN regards to “plants do not have brains”, you are correct, there are a lot of ways in which a plant is deficient in its understanding of who, or what is a human being. In the same way, the same can be said of human beings. We are SOOOOOOOO infinitely deficient, that to even ascribe an attribute to God is a vain imagination, an idle fancy. Wouldn’t you say?

So how can anyone ascribe the station of God to a human being walking with them? Yes, it may all add up to this assumption, based on miracles, and the “I am” statement amongst other things, but to make this conclusion assumes that they can define God in the first place.

Who is that dares to say that God is a person that fulfills these criteria:

1. Says “I am”
2. Does some miracles
3. Resurrects from the dead
4. Heals people
   etc etc

How do we know that these are the necessary attributes of God? We cannot ascribe one correct attribute onto Him, never mind the ones listed above.

As St. Columba in one of his sermons states:

How, therefore can the Apostles make such conclusions of Jesus?

God bless you

.

I understand what you are saying, and unfortunately it all comes back to you deny Jesus as God.

We as Christians can. If you believe in the Old Test. you will see that God showed us who the Messiah is and he was to fulfill the entire O.T. and he did.

Yes many Jews did not acknowledge Jesus, but what you and many forget is the Jews who did accept him. Do you realize all of the Apostles were indeed Jews.

Look at St Paul, he was not your average person. St Paul was very educated in scripture. He understood everything that Christ fulfilled.

In John chapter I it explains it easy to you. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. HE was in the beginning with God. Who is the HE the scripture is speaking of? Jesus of course.

What came to be through him was life the LIGHT of the human race. You read on a man John was sent FROM God to testify to the Light. He (John) was not the light but came to testify to the Light.

The TRUE LIGHT which enlightens everyone was coming into the world.

Now pay attention, many Jews did not accept him as we know. Here is what the word says, HE was in the world, and the world came TO BE THROUGH him, but the world did not know him…his OWN people did not know accept him. (the world came TO BE thorough HIM)

But those who DID accept he gave power to become children of God.

And the WORD BECAME FLESH and made HIS dwelling among us, and we saw his glory as the Father’s only Son full of grace and truth.

Listen close to this part.

From his fullness, we have received grace in place of grace, because the LAW was given through MOSES, Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ.

Listen again carefully to these words. Word for Word I quote to you.

NO ONE has ever seen GOD, ONLY the SON, GOD, who is at the Fathers side has revealed him.

Did you catch that word of God. It said ONLY THE SON, GOD.

The Jews knew the Messiah was coming. The O.T. say the Messiah would. John testified to this, that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

Jesus goes on throughout the bible and says to if you see ME you see the FATHER.

The Jews did not think their King would be humble and poor. They will have their eyes opened someday, many do,
today and everyday. But not all, but they will. God has promised us that.

Son of God is the title used in the O.T. as title for the Davidic King

Bottom line, you must understand the O.T. to see Jesus in the N.T. as the true God.

 

[eddie_too]

unlike the bahai and other non-Christian religions, Christians know our Creator intimately.

our Creator, the One and Only God, reveals Himself to us. Christians reject completely that the One God cannot be known by His creatures.

the whole intent of Creation is for the Creator’s human creatures to be perfectly united to the Divine. only the angels and human beings can be united perfectly to the Divine, the One God.

but, also, only and angels can spend eternity separated and opposed to the One God.

Sacred Scripture and the RCC reveal the nature and the attributes of the One God as well as the Persons of the One God as provided by the Incarnation of the One God.

Jesus proclaimed that He would be with us to the end of this world.

non-Christian religions claim that they possess knowledge and understanding that is superior to Jesus. they claim that the knowledge and understanding they possess either completes, or adds to or replaces the teachings of Jesus.

Christians reject this. Christians do not need anything beyond Jesus and His Church to be completed and to live as their Creator ordained human beings should live.

that means the task of the non-Christian proselytizer is to provide Christians with the information that either completes the teachings of Jesus, or adds to the teachings of Jesus or replaces the teachings of Jesus.

if a non-Christian cannot clearly and simply explain why Jesus did not provide the fullness of Truth for all time (Christians believe He did provide this); and, what must be added to either complete, expand or replace the teachings of Jesus.

we Christians know, for example, that the bahai believe Jesus’ teachings were lacking in some way for the current generation or the generations since bahaullah. what has been missing in these threads is a simple explanation of what the bahai propose is lacking in the teachings of Jesus. that would be lacking for this age or for any other age.

the very essence of the bahai beliefs is that Jesus and His teachings are not sufficient for the current age. something else is necessary. what else is necessary and why this additional information is necessary is the real issue.

so far, from all that I have read of the Mormons and the bahai and the muslims, nothing I have read explains where Jesus is lacking. what needs to be added. and, why I should believe that Jesus is not the Alpha and the Omega of reality, of all creation.

it is as simple as completing the following:

Jesus’ teachings were incomplete for the current era because they did not include … .

humanity needs this now because without it … .

just complete these two sentences and maybe we could engage in fruitful dialogue.

 

[tonyfish58]

I understand what you are saying, and unfortunately it all comes back to you deny Jesus as God.

Bottom line, you must understand the O.T. to see Jesus in the N.T. as the true God.

Rinnie - I did not Quote all you replies dear Friend in God Your opening and closing statements was what you were proving to us!

Dear Rinnie - Can I offer you in return my reflections on this subject based on what I currently understand from the Baha’i Writings.

Here are some Bible Passages to consider;

18:19 & Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone.

Luke 22:42…“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

John 14:28 "…and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one…”

John 14:37“…If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father…”

This is a subject that if we use the Koran and the Baha’i Writings to assist us in understanding, then we can draw another conclusion about how the Station of Christ and God can differ and How God and Christ are One.

This subject has been explained in great detail in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Link reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-177.html Here are some extracts, I suggest it is worth reading the entire explanation!

"The Bahá’í Writings contain many passages that elucidate the nature of the Manifestation and His relationship to God. Bahá’u’lláh underlines the unique and transcendent nature of the Godhead. He explains that “since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation” God ordains that “in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven”. This “mysterious and ethereal Being”, the Manifestation of God, has a human nature which pertains to “the world of matter” and a spiritual nature “born of the substance of God Himself”. He is also endowed with a “double station”:

The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself… The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?..”

…Concerning the uniqueness of Bahá’u’lláh’s station and the greatness of His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the “Day of God”, found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Bahá’u’lláh:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”, the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father”; to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha…"

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

If a non-Christian cannot clearly and simply explain why Jesus did not provide the fullness of Truth for all time (Christians believe He did provide this); and, what must be added to either complete, expand or replace the teachings of Jesus.

Eddie too - I can explain this Clearly and Simply. Please do not take offense, it is not aimed at you, it is but the explanation you request.

Your replies to this thread are the answer dear Friend

Let this be the thought. If Muhummad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah are who they claimed to be, then it becomes apparent what Happens to Gods Messengers in EVERY DAY that He Has Revealed Himself!

They are Persecuted and Rejected as was Christ. Man always falls short!

It then also then becomes apparent why there is a New Message and why the Previous Message needed refreshing!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Christians reject completely that the One God cannot be known by His creatures.

eddie too - Can I offer this reflection upon your thoughts about God?

How can such a lowly insignificant piece of an entire unfathomable never Ending Creation ever say that God Can be Known?

Try to explain an Atom, one little piece of the Creation, but a piece that can also contain a Sun

To start to know God we have to realize that we are nothing, we are but a creature that survives only because of Gods Grace and Bounty. We have to realize that there are some things we will never know.

Baha’u’llah has Explains How Christ and the Prophets are connected to God and what they are in relation to God.

Bahá’u’lláh describes the station of “Divinity” which He shares with all the Manifestations of God as

…the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth in God. Divinity, whenever I mention it, indicateth My complete and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my resurrection.

And, regarding His own relationship to God, He testifies:

When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay! reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-177.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie - I did not Quote all you replies dear Friend in God Your opening and closing statements was what you were proving to us!

Dear Rinnie - Can I offer you in return my reflections on this subject based on what I currently understand from the Baha’i Writings.

Here are some Bible Passages to consider;

18:19 & Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone.

Luke 22:42…“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

John 14:28 "…and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one…”

John 14:37“…If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father…”

This is a subject that if we use the Koran and the Baha’i Writings to assist us in understanding, then we can draw another conclusion about how the Station of Christ and God can differ and How God and Christ are One.

This subject has been explained in great detail in The Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Link reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-177.html Here are some extracts, I suggest it is worth reading the entire explanation!

"The Bahá’í Writings contain many passages that elucidate the nature of the Manifestation and His relationship to God. Bahá’u’lláh underlines the unique and transcendent nature of the Godhead. He explains that “since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation” God ordains that “in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven”. This “mysterious and ethereal Being”, the Manifestation of God, has a human nature which pertains to “the world of matter” and a spiritual nature “born of the substance of God Himself”. He is also endowed with a “double station”:

The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself… The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?..”

…Concerning the uniqueness of Bahá’u’lláh’s station and the greatness of His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the “Day of God”, found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Bahá’u’lláh:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father”, the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father”; to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha…"

God Bless and Regards Tony

Sorry Tony but this is what Christ meant and taught.

In Luke 22 Emphasizes the action of the Holy Spirit and meaning of prayer in Christ Christian ministry. He always prays before decisive moments of his mission.

This pray before the events of salvation that his Father asked him to fulfill is a humble and trusting commitment of his human will to the loving will of the Father. Your teaching is way off the mark there. This is the teaching the Apostles taught that Jesus taught them.

The next question Why do you call me Good no one is good but God alone, again according to the teaching of Jesus you missed the mark again. IF you read the verse before they refer to him as Teacher, Teacher for respect but not acknowledging him as the Son of God.

You must remember Jesus is human and Divine and knew what they were thinking. But he made his point Only God is good, so you call me Good which is indeed true but you deny me as God.

Next on your question of Jesus saying the Father is greater then I. Again your missed the mark again if you want the teaching of the apostles. He was inferior to the Father on a Human level, but equal to the Father on a Divine level.

See Tony no disrespect, but we as humans cannot understand the teaching of Jesus because he was on a Human and Divine level. Only God is Divine and can teach us through the Holy Spirit. That is why we obey the Church which was promised the Advocate the Holy Spirit to TEACH you and LEAD you into all truth.

 

[Servant19]

Sorry Tony but this is what Christ meant and taught.

In Luke 22 Emphasizes the action of the Holy Spirit and meaning of prayer in Christ Christian ministry. He always prays before decisive moments of his mission.

This pray before the events of salvation that his Father asked him to fulfill is a humble and trusting commitment of his human will to the loving will of the Father. Your teaching is way off the mark there. This is the teaching the Apostles taught that Jesus taught them.

The next question Why do you call me Good no one is good but God alone, again according to the teaching of Jesus you missed the mark again. IF you read the verse before they refer to him as Teacher, Teacher for respect but not acknowledging him as the Son of God.

You must remember Jesus is human and Divine and knew what they were thinking. But he made his point Only God is good, so you call me Good which is indeed true but you deny me as God.

Next on your question of Jesus saying the Father is greater then I. Again your missed the mark again if you want the teaching of the apostles. He was inferior to the Father on a Human level, but equal to the Father on a Divine level.

See Tony no disrespect, but we as humans cannot understand the teaching of Jesus because he was on a Human and Divine level. Only God is Divine and can teach us through the Holy Spirit. That is why we obey the Church which was promised the Advocate the Holy Spirit to TEACH you and LEAD you into all truth.

Hi rinnie hope you are well angel.

Can you please elaborate on Christs “human will”? Did Christ have two “wills”? A human will and a divine will? Was He two persons in His capacity as the Son?



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[tonyfish58]

Sorry Tony but this is what Christ meant and taught.

See Tony no disrespect, but we as humans cannot understand the teaching of Jesus because he was on a Human and Divine level. Only God is Divine and can teach us through the Holy Spirit. That is why we obey the Church which was promised the Advocate the Holy Spirit to TEACH you and LEAD you into all truth.

Rinnie - Dear friend you have Free Will to follow your heart God Bless your decisions and may the Church guide you unto all Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Can you please elaborate on Christs “human will”? Did Christ have two “wills”? A human will and a divine will? Was He two persons in His capacity as the Son?

Christ had both a human will and a divine will as he had both a human nature and a divine nature. But he is one Person. That is why the Church can rightly call Mary the Mother of God. She gave birth to one Person, Jesus; truly man and truly God.

This is what our Church teaches concerning Jesus’ human and divine natures:

“Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed,” in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity.” The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:” (CCC par. 470)

Hope this helps answer your question.

 

[Servant19]

Christ had both a human will and a divine will as he had both a human nature and a divine nature. But he is one Person. That is why the Church can rightly call Mary the Mother of God. She gave birth to one Person, Jesus; truly man and truly God.

This is what our Church teaches concerning Jesus’ human and divine natures:

“Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed,” in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity.” The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:” (CCC par. 470)

Hope this helps answer your question.

Thankyou dear Steve. I appreciate your hopes and desires for me to understand.

I appreciate how Jesus may have referred to His human and divine natures as almost separate entities, and I understand this totally because Baha’u’llah does similarly, however to assign Godhead and the Divine Essence upon His divine nature is where the confusions and contradictions arise

When in Ephesians, Paul reveals a prayer:

“For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him…”

• Ephesians 1:15

…why would (in the bolded segment) Paul refer to Jesus’ human aspect in a prayer? For it is the human aspect that refers to “Someone” higher, correct?

If Paul, as He does all the time, refers to Christu, the “Divine Jesus”, then how can there be a God of our “God” Jesus Christ? (as stated in Ephesians)

Do you not think that the interpretations of the Scriptures, by Christian teachings, as Jesus being God, are confusing?

I personally find the whole thing very confusing

Prayers like this, in Ephesians, confuse the doctrine of the absolute “Godness” of Jesus.



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[SteveVH]

Thankyou dear Steve. I appreciate your hopes and desires for me to understand.

You asked a question about the human and divine wills of Christ. I simply answered it. That being said, I hope you do understand.

I appreciate how Jesus may have referred to His human and divine natures as almost separate entities

I am not aware that Jesus ever referred to his human and divine natures as “almost separate entities”. There is no separation in Jesus. He is one Person.

and I understand this totally because Baha’u’llah does similarly, however to assign Godhead and the Divine Essence upon His divine nature is where the confusions and contradictions arise

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Please explain further.

When in Ephesians, Paul reveals a prayer:

"For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him…" - Ephesians 1:15

…why would (in the bolded segment) Paul refer to Jesus’ human aspect in a prayer? For it is the human aspect that refers to “Someone” higher, correct?

If Paul, as He does all the time, refers to Christu, the “Divine Jesus”, then how can there be a God of our “God” Jesus Christ? (as stated in Ephesians)

Do you not think that the interpretations of the Scriptures, by Christian teachings, as Jesus being God, are confusing?

Yes. It is very confusing to those who do not read Scripture through the lens of the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church or are not familiar with Hebraic idioms. The “God of our Lord Jesus Christ” is a Hebrew form of expression that does not translate well into English. Thus, one living today cannot simply pick up the Bible and read it as we would a newspaper article. It takes much study and understanding of the language, culture and time in which it was written. This is why the Church does not hold to private interpretation of the Scriptures. There is too much room for misinterpretation when it is read in the absence of this knowledge.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

You asked a question about the human and divine wills of Christ. I simply answered it. That being said, I hope you do understand.

…and I am simply expressing my appreciation to you my friend

I am not aware that Jesus ever referred to his human and divine natures as “almost separate entities”. There is no separation in Jesus. He is one Person.

Yes I appreciate that. However the teachings implicate (as posted by rinnie above, and many others) that when Jesus states “The Father is greater than I” that He is referring “only” to His human aspect (as if it is separated from His Divine aspect). Jesus is Jesus, not two aspects which He refers to every now and then…

Why, then does He, according to Catholic teaching, ONLY refer to His human nature when referring to the Father as greater than He.

Is He (the one entire Person, human and Divine) lesser than the Father, or is He (the separated human aspect) lesser than the Father?

This is the confusion therefore

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Please explain further.

Thankyou dear friend. I will try to clarify.

Baha’u’llah Himself distinguishes from His Divine aspect (the Word) from the essence of God.

In the Baha’i Faith, the word “Divine” does not refer to the essence of God. Epistemologically, the Word and the essence of God are one and the same, however, we now know that ontologically, they are distinguished and separate. The Word is co-eternal with the World of God, but separated from it.

Yes. It is very confusing to those who do not read Scripture through the lens of the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church or are not familiar with Hebraic idioms. The “God of our Lord Jesus Christ” is a Hebrew form of expression that does not translate well into English. Thus, one living today cannot simply pick up the Bible and read it as we would a newspaper article. It takes much study and understanding of the language, culture and time in which it was written. This is why the Church does not hold to private interpretation of the Scriptures. There is too much room for misinterpretation when it is read in the absence of this knowledge.

Peace.

Steve

I would appreciate any sources, links, verses which will clarify this manifest confusion between the Scripture and the official interpretation

Thankyou and God bless you, dear friend



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[SteveVH]

…and I am simply expressing my appreciation to you my friend

Forgive me, Servant. When I re-read what I had posted it seemed a little cold to me as well. Thank you for your kind words and it is sincerely my hope and desire that you understand.

Yes I appreciate that. However the teachings implicate (as posted by rinnie above, and many others) that when Jesus states “The Father is greater than I” that He is referring “only” to His human aspect (as if it is separated from His Divine aspect). Jesus is Jesus, not two aspects which He refers to every now and then…

And I agree with them. Christ humbled himself to take on human flesh. He became a true man, 100% human, while not giving up his divinity. From the aspect of his humanness the Father is certainly greater. But the fact that Jesus even refers to the “Father” indicates that he is speaking of his eternal relationship which could only be known through his divine nature. He expresses his divine nature through his human nature and both natures are inextricably linked in one Person. Jesus would not be Jesus without both a human and a divine nature. There is no separation. We call this the “hypostatic union”. We can discuss that further if you wish.

Why, then does He, according to Catholic teaching, ONLY refer to His human nature when referring to the Father as greater than He.

Because he is God according to his eternal relationship with the Father in the Trinity. Where the Father is, there is also the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there is also the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also is the Father and the Son. There is only one God and the Father is not greater than the Son nor the Holy Spirit because the only distinction between the Persons is one of relationship, not of greatness or glory.

I will have to respond to the rest of your post in the morning. It’s been a long day. Great questions, by the way!

God bless.

 

[Servant19]

Forgive me, Servant. When I re-read what I had posted it seemed a little cold to me as well. Thank you for your kind words and it is sincerely my hope and desire that you understand.

And I agree with them. Christ humbled himself to take on human flesh. He became a true man, 100% human, while not giving up his divinity. From the aspect of his humanness the Father is certainly greater. But the fact that Jesus even refers to the “Father” indicates that he is speaking of his eternal relationship which could only be known through his divine nature. He expresses his divine nature through his human nature and both natures are inextricably linked in one Person. Jesus would not be Jesus without both a human and a divine nature. There is no separation. We call this the “hypostatic union”. We can discuss that further if you wish.

Because he is God according to his eternal relationship with the Father in the Trinity. Where the Father is, there is also the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there is also the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also is the Father and the Son. There is only one God and the Father is not greater than the Son nor the Holy Spirit because the only distinction between the Persons is one of relationship, not of greatness or glory.

I will have to respond to the rest of your post in the morning. It’s been a long day. Great questions, by the way!

God bless.

Thankyou dear Steve, rest well

You’ve given me plenty to chew on and meditate on here, but yes addressing my other points would be very much appreciated

Bless you!

.

 

[tonyfish58]

I am not aware that Jesus ever referred to his human and divine natures as “almost separate entities”. There is no separation in Jesus. He is one Person. Peace. Steve

Steve - I have always thought about this passages and used it as a balance - Matthew 27:

“…45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”…”.

This is may be a quote on Psalm 22:1!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Thankyou dear friend. I will try to clarify.

Baha’u’llah Himself distinguishes from His Divine aspect (the Word) from the essence of God. In the Baha’i Faith, the word “Divine” does not refer to the essence of God.

In the Christian faith the word “divine” refers to God’s uncreated, eternal nature, whose essence is Love.

Epistemologically, the Word and the essence of God are one and the same, however, we now know that ontologically, they are distinguished and separate. The Word is co-eternal with the World of God, but separated from it.

What is the difference between the “Word” and the "Word of God? If the Word is co-eternal then, by definition, the Word was uncreated. If this uncreated “Word” is co-eternal with the “Word of God”, yet separated, are you not describing two gods; two eternal but separate entities? This would be a huge difference in our belief systems.

We describe Jesus, the Word of God, as “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father”. God cannot be separated and remain one God.

I would appreciate any sources, links, verses which will clarify this manifest confusion between the Scripture and the official interpretation

Well, I would not agree that there is any “manifest confusion” between the Scripture and the official interpretation. The confusion lies in the fact that you are interpreting ancient texts, written 2000 + years ago, in a different language and in a different culture, using forms of expression that are not familiar to the modern reader, as I have previously explained.

One should ask the question: Why would the Catholic Church canonize a text that was in direct conflict with what it teaches? There is no conflict, only misunderstanding and ignorance on the part of those who believe they have the authority to interpret the Holy Book of the Catholic Church better than the Catholic Church.

The Church existed for approximately 400 years prior to choosing the texts that would make up the canon of Sacred Scripture. It specifically chose these texts based upon how they lined up with the deposit of faith given to it by the Apostles (Sacred Tradition). The Bible is a supporting document, not the source of the truth we received. The source was a Person; Jesus Christ.

Thankyou and God bless you, dear friend



.

And you also.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve - I have always thought about this passages and used it as a balance - Matthew 27:

“…45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”…”.

This is may be a quote on Psalm 22:1!

God Bless and Regards Tony

I don’t understand. A balance between what?

 

[tonyfish58]

I don’t understand. A balance between what?

Between Christ and God - There lies a never ending discussion to which we may have had already

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Between Christ and God - There lies a never ending discussion to which we may have had already

God Bless and Regards Tony

Yes, one of my greatest frustrations is the merry-go-round that seems prevalent here.

To the point, however, Christ is either God Almighty or he is not. If he is not then Christianity falls on its face. There is no balancing act necessary unless one is interested in watering down the truth to make it more palatable to those who cannot accept it.